Is electric really the answer?

[exeterjeep]

20 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Are we talking about the Emira here, or the MG?  

The MG, but I wonder what experiences await those in the Eletre queue. As it is also from a new factory on a new platform etc. Will be keeping an eye on the new Jeep Avenger, also coming soon, and made in Poland. But think is partly based on an existing (but newish) platform.

[Sport220]

Well this looks interesting

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/mg/4-ev-hatchback/

Edited July 4, 2023 by Sport220

[exeterjeep]

Based on the first versions of the MG4 it will be interesting to see how this gets on. This would be a possibility. Test drives due very shortly.

[C8RKH]

Ugly though.

[Sport220]

This is the way. 

[ramjet]

Did I hear correctly that he said the car has fibreglass springs?

[Mark Blanchard]

New solid state batteries are being developed by Toyota, which will be lighter, have a reduced charging time and have a 20% increase in range.

More here:

 

[pete]

 

[Sport220]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuTubQgINNO

 

[Sport220]

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/aim/ev-sport-01/
 

 

[Kimbers]

I am getting very bored with the lies, misrepresentations and outright collusion regarding EV's right now.

All the Press, Govt and Manufacturers will tell you how awesome their sales and uptake of EV is whilst to those in the industry and related industries we know that EV sales are literally on their ass.

Secretly (and I was told total denial would follow) I was told that EV uptake, sales and public confidence was "The lowest it has been for many years". Dealers have EV's coming out of their ears. One dealer told me they have 2 EV's as demonstrators at any one time and revolve them every 6 months. Only they have their last six still for sale. Thats 18 months without selling them.

I was informed yesterday by an Industry specialist that EV's have depreciated by 34% since January. Against Hybrids and Plug ins that have increased 11% in value in that time. Every Company car EV user I know is getting out of them. Rental companies struggle to use them. Business users who took them to save Company Car tax have found themselves stranded or adding 2 hours a journey to their time. Those that bought them have found they are hugely in negative equity on their finance due to huge drops and Confidence and crippling range anxiety is huge!

Yet the Motoring press, Sales sites (Autotrader etc), Manufacturers and Govt all lie blatantly about EV's, not only uptake but even sales figures are hashed!

Meanwhile peoples main concerns aren't addressed as "Everything is so peachy". Lies and misinformation have a cause/effect.

The £trillion needed in infrastructure isn't happening
The increase in range is "Supposedly" happening but most daily Use EV's are still around 200 miles in real terms
The cost of Charging isn't happening. It still costs £40+ to do 200 miles against a diesel or hybrid getting 4-500 on the same money
The cost of the cars coming down to "realistic" values isn't happening. Monthly cost of an EV is still 50% or more than an ICE or Hybrid equiv
The charge time is coming down!! If you spend £150,000 on the right EV and can find a super charger....... yeah about that. 97% of chargers still take 45 minutes or more for 80%
Vans! The average range of an EV van is 80 miles. Yes 80. Go do your multi drop in that...or drive from London to Manchester and back again (2 days of charging later).
Worst of all, whenever any expert or Car company exec admits it's all shit they either get binned or ridiculed. Why is this? Too many people have money and their fingers in the pot!

The fact still remains. EV is the worst answer to a question that is not really a question! When Govts started pushing for reductions in ICE production this is the route they wanted everyone to go down and no matter how many experts or specialists told them it's not efficient, its not green and its definately not affordable, they pushed for it anyway because they have to show willing when it comes to climate change. And yet Car emissions are a tiny portion of the overall problem.

However it's not PC to point out the fashion industry creates more Climate change gasses than Plane and shipping added together. That building on greenfield sites hugely reduces our ability to process Co2 and produce oxygen or that India (6.6%), China (27%) and the good old US of A (11%) produce 44.6% of the total worlds GHG's. Anything we do makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.
 

[exeterjeep]

Even my neighbour, who works for National grid, say they they have abandoned their current plans to only use EV's, as they suddenly seem to realise that EV's can't tow heavy stuff like generators and other heavy equipment that their business requires. 

[Kimbers]

55 minutes ago, exeterjeep said:

Even my neighbour, who works for National grid, say they they have abandoned their current plans to only use EV's, as they suddenly seem to realise that EV's can't tow heavy stuff like generators and other heavy equipment that their business requires. 

A van that can normally carry 1 ton is down below 500kg.

[drdoom]

5 hours ago, Kimbers said:

 

The fact still remains. EV is the worst answer to a question that is not really a question! When Govts started pushing for reductions in ICE production this is the route they wanted everyone to go down and no matter how many experts or specialists told them it's not efficient, its not green and its definately not affordable, they pushed for it anyway because they have to show willing when it comes to climate change. And yet Car emissions are a tiny portion of the overall problem.

However it's not PC to point out the fashion industry creates more Climate change gasses than Plane and shipping added together. That building on greenfield sites hugely reduces our ability to process Co2 and produce oxygen or that India (6.6%), China (27%) and the good old US of A (11%) produce 44.6% of the total worlds GHG's. Anything we do makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.
 

We are rightly sensitive to the lies and misrepresentations but I suspect this EV campaign has more of a geopolitical basis than climate, grave though that aspect may be. What resonates is the ever increasing and more prosperous cohort of newly minted consumers worldwide. All else remaining equal we must anticipate a commensurate upward path in demand for fossil fuels, to the notable benefit of states like Russia and Saudi. The balance of power is precarious enough as is.

Cheers

[Sport220]

9 hours ago, Kimbers said:

I am getting very bored with the lies, misrepresentations and outright collusion regarding EV's right now. (...)

 

Some facts and figures.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/uk-2022-car-sales-analysis-winners-and-losers/

Full battery electric vehicles (BEVs) continue to rise in popularity across Britain, accounting for 16.6% of all new cars sold last year; they have now overtaken diesel to become the second most common powertrain.

https://heycar.co.uk/blog/car-sales-statistics

In 2022, there were 6,890,777 used car sales in the UK which was an 8.5% decrease from 2021 but there was record demand for used electric vehicles and hybrids.

https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-uk-by-month

The biggest selling car of June 2023 was the Tesla Model Y. 5,539 units.

Compared to June 2022, EV sales increased 39.4 % to 31,700 units (17.9% market share), PHEV increased 65.5 % to 12,770 units (7.2 % share).

👍

 

 

 

[Kimbers]

Like I said misinformation. We all know from the Governments how figures can be skewed and misrepresented. I know, cause I have seen the fields and car parks full of new EV's that Manufacturers can't sell. In terms of discount on new EV's we have gone from 5% last year to 34% this year and with most manufacturers EV's are the only cars available immediately for sale because everything else is selling out and there are very few new sales of EV's.

And your read on "The best selling car" is also incorrect Yes the Tesla Model Y was top, up from 7th last month. Why is this when the rest of the top 10 has not a single other EV in it? It's because Tesla took on a registration policy to deal with a backlog of unsold new cars? Dealers being forced to register new demo's and new courtesy cars, new road show initiatives for more regs etc etc.

You see the figures can be mickied very quickly! After 25 years in the industry I know every trick.
 

Lastly the reports on used EV's is, like I said, Dire. This is because of lack of sales and so many people handing back EV's that there is a glut in the market.

SMMT: "June marked another month of contracting prices for used electric vehicles (EVs), with the average retail value (£31,430) falling 19.1% year-on-year, new data suggests from the Auto Trader Retail Price Index.

It makes June the sixth consecutive month of year-on-year decline, with average EV prices falling by around £5,000 since January (£36,179) and nearly £9,500 since their peak in July 2022 (£40,728)."

But I'm sure your figures look right to those with no knowledge or experience of the industry.

 

11 hours ago, Sport220 said:

 

Some facts and figures.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/uk-2022-car-sales-analysis-winners-and-losers/

Full battery electric vehicles (BEVs) continue to rise in popularity across Britain, accounting for 16.6% of all new cars sold last year; they have now overtaken diesel to become the second most common powertrain.

https://heycar.co.uk/blog/car-sales-statistics

In 2022, there were 6,890,777 used car sales in the UK which was an 8.5% decrease from 2021 but there was record demand for used electric vehicles and hybrids.

https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-uk-by-month

The biggest selling car of June 2023 was the Tesla Model Y. 5,539 units.

Compared to June 2022, EV sales increased 39.4 % to 31,700 units (17.9% market share), PHEV increased 65.5 % to 12,770 units (7.2 % share).

👍

 

 

 

 

[Mark Blanchard]

Very interesting Kimbers.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  And very true about China, India and the US.

[mcdonaa]

The Majority of the Tesla Model Y sales were in China, so its skewing the figures somewhat. The best selling car in Europe in 2023 so far is the Dacia Sandero, and in the US a Ford pickup unsurprisingly. The Model Y is a close second in both instances though...

[Sport220]

36 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

Like I said misinformation. We all know from the Governments how figures can be skewed and misrepresented. I know, cause I have seen the fields and car parks full of new EV's that Manufacturers can't sell. In terms of discount on new EV's we have gone from 5% last year to 34% this year and with most manufacturers EV's are the only cars available immediately for sale because everything else is selling out and there are very few new sales of EV's.

And your read on "The best selling car" is also incorrect Yes the Tesla Model Y was top, up from 7th last month. Why is this when the rest of the top 10 has not a single other EV in it? It's because Tesla took on a registration policy to deal with a backlog of unsold new cars? Dealers being forced to register new demo's and new courtesy cars, new road show initiatives for more regs etc etc.

You see the figures can be mickied very quickly! After 25 years in the industry I know every trick.
 

Lastly the reports on used EV's is, like I said, Dire. This is because of lack of sales and so many people handing back EV's that there is a glut in the market.

SMMT: "June marked another month of contracting prices for used electric vehicles (EVs), with the average retail value (£31,430) falling 19.1% year-on-year, new data suggests from the Auto Trader Retail Price Index.

It makes June the sixth consecutive month of year-on-year decline, with average EV prices falling by around £5,000 since January (£36,179) and nearly £9,500 since their peak in July 2022 (£40,728)."

But I'm sure your figures look right to those with no knowledge or experience of the industry.

 

 

First of all, Tesla is the only EV only car manufacturer on the list. Do other manufacturers not sell EVs then? Not MINI with the Cooper S Electric, etc?

Wouldn’t expect to see any other BEV model on the top 10 when BEV market share is less than 20%. 

There were also over 10,000 Tesla registered in March (top was VW with 20 odd thousand). Pretty impressive, I’d say. Shame they’re now mostly crossover/SUV type things.

Don’t need “knowledge or experience of the industry” to read and interpret data I don’t think. Just so happen to be working at one of these car manufacturers and engineering EVs.

I fail to see how used car prices are of relevance here. Could be because I don’t have to sell them myself, but not sure what the point is. As for new EV car prices going down, how is this not to be expected when more affordable options like the MG4 are coming to market and selling well?

More and more manufacturers are launching new EVs and going EV only in the near future, Lotus included. Don’t like it, well…

6 minutes ago, mcdonaa said:

The Majority of the Tesla Model Y sales were in China, so its skewing the figures somewhat. The best selling car in Europe in 2023 so far is the Dacia Sandero, and in the US a Ford pickup unsurprisingly. The Model Y is a close second in both instances though...

Those were UK sales figures

[mcdonaa]

https://uk.motor1.com/news/669260/tesla-model-y-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

 

Sorry I was talking about the fact the Tesla Model Y is the best selling car in the world at the moment

[Kimbers]

27 minutes ago, Sport220 said:

I fail to see how used car prices are of relevance here. Could be because I don’t have to sell them myself, but not sure what the point is. As for new EV car prices going down, how is this not to be expected when more affordable options like the MG4 are coming to market and selling well?

More and more manufacturers are launching new EVs and going EV only in the near future, Lotus included. Don’t like it, well…

Those were UK sales figures

The "Sales knowledge" Is everything TBH. The reason they are dropping in price is there are too many on the market for demand which is dropping in real terms. When you can't sell something you make it cheaper. It still doesn't sell you make it cheaper again and so on and so forth. However normally when you do this (such as Cazoo do by an algorythm) you drop a car by a few hundred quid and it sells. But 36%? The only reason for that to drop that much is lack of demand in a high supply market. Exactly what we are seeing now.

The same is true of New EV's. The market looks bouyant according to the figures supplied by all of those with an interest in selling EV's. However behind the scenes it is very different. As I stated, our discount on new EV cars has gone from 5% a year ago and are now at over 30% (37% offered last month as a Registration exercise for that manufacturer). However their "Retail cost" looks the same. They are buying a market to get mainly fleets registering cars so they can say their EV sales are great. But we all know Fleets will take anything if the cost is right. Well normally anything. We just turned down that 37% deal because we can't use the cars. No one wants them, especially in the rental and leasing market. We bought 100 small EV's 8 months ago and had to make massive losses to move them.

Registration exercises are, I'm afraid all too common to skew figures. I have been working with a Manufacturer who has been top of the sales figures and dropped off. The amount of "things" they do to ensure numbers is crazy! Forcing dealers to put on extra demonstrators, telling dealers they have to register a complete new fleet of Courtesy cars despite dealers only having new fleets a month or 2 ago etc etc. Figures can easily be skewed.

So for those in the know "on the ground" not working for manufacturers and govts, can see a huge glut of EV's, no one wants, dealers making huge losses by being forced to take EV's for courtesy cars etc when they don't want them and forecourts full of cars that look great on paper but are a nightmare for everyone concerned.

It can't continue. it's a false economy being driven by those with a finger in the pie or alterior motives to promote a very poor solution to the Global climate issue.

Mario, I understand where you are coming from but the realities on the ground are different. Very different. I spoke to over 20 of my dealer partners just yesterday to discuss disposal of our e208's coming off fleet and was laughed out of the door. words such as "Keep them", "Impossible to sell", "I can get good scrap price for it for you", "I haven't opened a door on any EV for months", "Sorry, I'll take every other car you have but no electric" etc etc etc.

Now I'm not saying certain EV's don't have sales. Porker, Tesla High end stuff. However you are talking about people with money who have a couple of normal engined cars and "hey! an EV would be a good idea for running around town". But being a member of such groups where people have money, every single one tells you they wouldn't drive the EV any distance, they'd take a normal car.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Also, if dealerships tell their workforce point blank to refuse p/x BEVs, then that’s not going to encourage people to buy new ones.

[ramjet]

Apparently our Victorian government here is now in the stages of getting all electric ferries.

I can't see that going well, to tell you the truth.

[madmax]

I’m rubbish at linking stuff from other places and don’t know who the guy is but a YouTube guy known as ‘Geoff Buys Cars’ clearly has a take on this that mirrors what @Kimbers says. 
When he runs these figures for EVs through his methodology it would appear that the factual increase in EV sales from last June to this one is only 1.75 % - somewhat different to the almost 40% headlined. 
I don’t have the data he has and I don’t know who he is or how credible his background is but if you want an alternative spin on what figures are being used, he might be worth looking up. 
Sorry I’ve failed to post the link

 

 

This might work 🤭

[C8RKH]

@Kimbers / @Sport220

Kimbers, I am more likely to believe your numbers and experience as you are the front of the market.

Mario, with all due to respect, your working for a manufacturer making EV's - of course it's all going to look rosey and be positive because everyone around you NEEDS it to be so to keep their jobs. It's the difference between an engineering/shop floor view and a "sales" view. Guess why most manufacturing businesses go bust? They spend too much making them, believe the engineers who say the product is just the best, and not the sales numbers and customer feedback....!  Not scientific but the numbers of people I know who are handing back their EV's is larger than those planning to buy one.  Even VW has switched off assembly lines for EV's due to slow demand.

Just because it should, does not mean it will.