What made you 'Shake your Head' today?

[Bibs]

He struggles enough when he walks!! 

[C8RKH]

And when he walks he's usually asleep.

[exeterjeep]

On 09/04/2023 at 07:51, C8RKH said:

Political correctness gone mad.

And now - 

Grays pub that displayed golly dolls closes after supplier boycott

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65471314

[Alfa2Evora]

In a similar vein, a pub near us had its name changed from 'The Black Bitch', (which has historical connections to the town and an image of a black female dog even appears on the town's coat of arms), to 'The Willow Tree', as it was considered racially offensive,  .

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/heritage-and-retro/heritage/black-bitch-pub-name-changed-revealed-after-row-3552906

I suppose the statue further along the High Street will now need its graphics changing too,  .

[Rambo]

My dog's toys. He doesn't give a toss what colour they are. And neither should we 😕

[Escape]

Sounds like Heineken etc want to use this as an excuse to replace the leaseholders with others that will do their every bidding without asking questions...

[Colin P]

Hmm, seems I may have a different view here and I do take issue with quite a lot of the overly sensitive political correctness.

Whatever your individual view of the appropriateness of a Gollywog (and I collected the badges as a kid) it is pretty well understood in today's climate that they are found to be offensive to fairly significant elements of society, so to display them openly in a public house or any other business, regardless of any intent or underlying personal feelings seems pretty bloody naive and the actions of big brands distancing themselves from it I would suggest is entirely predictable.

If I still had my badges would I keep them in a drawer and look at them now and again, yes. Would I pin them on my lapel and walk around with them or display them prominently behind me on teams calls, absolutely not.

 

[Kimbers]

Look, let me put it this way. The offending toys were collectable and its not illegal to own them. Nazi memorabilia including genuine WW2 swastika flags are collectable and very expensive, but would you display them in a pub? 

In this particular case I feel that the pub and landlords should have been more sensitive. There are lots of things that people get offended about and I often think, "Bloody Grow a pair" and lets face it being offended seems to be a career for some people these days.

However, in this particular case I have to agree with Colin. The Landlords pretty much knew that some people would find them offensive and it was their responsibility to ensure things displayed match both the brewery rules and that of common sense. I personally think they were just naive but that doesn't excuse it.

 

[Chillidoggy]

3 hours ago, Kimbers said:

Look, let me put it this way. The offending toys were collectable and its not illegal to own them. Nazi memorabilia including genuine WW2 swastika flags are collectable and very expensive, but would you display them in a pub? 

In this particular case I feel that the pub and landlords should have been more sensitive. There are lots of things that people get offended about and I often think, "Bloody Grow a pair" and lets face it being offended seems to be a career for some people these days.

However, in this particular case I have to agree with Colin. The Landlords pretty much knew that some people would find them offensive and it was their responsibility to ensure things displayed match both the brewery rules and that of common sense. I personally think they were just naive but that doesn't excuse it.

 

The pub has now been forced to close.

[ramjet]

How does it get to that state of affairs?

[PaulCP]

All this from just one person making a complaint, one in god knows how many who have visited the pub in whatever number of years they were on show. To be perfectly frank it beggars belief.

Cant the pub landlord Sue the complainant for loss of earnings/livelihood? He wasn’t committing a crime, but then again maybe he could sue the police for the heavy handed way in which they dealt with the complaint🤔

[Alfa2Evora]

21 hours ago, PaulCP said:

All this from just one person making a complaint..............

Here she is.................

[Chillidoggy]

"Swivel-eyed" about covers it.

[Rambo]

5 hours ago, Alfa2Evora said:

Here she is.................

Snowflake? Fruitcake more like 🤔

[ramjet]

What is annoying is that gollywogs were made up. They are(were?) a fictional character.

We'll have a zoo keeper taking the creator of Dumbo to court soon as they are disappointed that the elephants they care for can't fly.

It's like the thinking behind Noddy being banned.

Why don't we eliminate the words 'dark', 'black', 'white', 'yellow', 'red', 'manhole', 'womanly', 'his' hers', 'Manchester', 'Manly', 'manor', 'mankind'? I'm quite sure we could add to this list for days. Don't know what we would say as options to these words. We really are losing the plot at the moment.

 I don't know why we would, but there must be a reason.  Live and let live for crying out loud.

If some of these people put as much energy into something creative or world changing, we'd be better off. Removing some dolls from a pub and forcing the closure of a business is not something to be proud of or to pass on to to your children.

"There was a pub here. I had it closed down because I could and mum had nothing for me to do in the yard at home."

[TAR]

I guess if you don't realize what's wrong with a racist stereotype it won't be worth an explanation.  

[C8RKH]

Air brushing the past is not the answer either @TAR. If handled properly the outcome could have been more positive and educational.

I find that Rap type music, that uses the n word and celebrates gangs and gang culture really offensive. But as a middle aged white male straight person, no one is going to change anything that I complain about. Just another racist stereotype but true nonetheless.

[r3nault]

I agree, air brushing the past or denying it exists solves nothing. But keeping or advocating for keeping stereotypical caricatures can perpetuate or extend harm, so why do it?

As for rap music, it has historic origins in slavery. Whilst I would certainly not be ok with it being played loudly around children due to the reasons you state, the real oppression caused by hundreds of years of slavery is not in any way comparable to the offense caused to a "middle aged white male straight person" as you say. And "racism" does not exist against "white people" in US/UK/Australia etc, because racism is not simply to do with language or actions pertaining to skin colour - it also has to do with power relations, i.e. if a group has more power in societal, financial and political terms, then "racist" comments or actions against them have no effect, as those comments or actions exist in an echo chamber.

If you want an example of what I mean, think back to how many times in your life, in your home country, you have been asked this sequence of questions: Where are you from? No, where are you REALLY from?

So, we have now engaged in a non-airbrushed, educational dialogue on racism and belonging.

[ramjet]

Nothing really, I just shook it.

The head on top of my neck ya' bunch of neanderthals!

[C8RKH]

15 hours ago, r3nault said:

And "racism" does not exist against "white people" in US/UK/Australia

I am sorry if this offends, but to me, you are talking complete, and utter, bollocks there. In fact, that is almost exactly what one of our "politicians" said here, and even she realised she was talking bollocks and had to back track faster than a Russian tank in Ukraine!

Racism can happen anywhere, to anyone, from anywhere.

Are you really saying that no "white" has been racially targeted or attacked in the US, the UK, or in  Australia? Really?

Racism is, to me (and feel free to correct what I have been taught to understand) the belief that different races possess different characteristics, abilities, behaviours, traits, qualities etc. These are then used to either a positive, or negative effect, justifying how the attitudes, beliefs or behaviours of one "race" marks them out to be more, or less, superior than another. 

This is exactly what happened in the North of England. As an example Groups of Asian men racially targeted, exploited, trafficked and abused white girls.They believed that, in short-hand, they were just "trash" and "inferior" to their own women, who they would not dream to treat in the same way and become very protective off if a white person even just shows them some kindness and interest.

Racism is any prejudice, discrimination, antagonism or targeting by an individual, community, or institution against any other person, or group of people, on the basis of them being from a particular racial or ethnic group. It can often be viewed as predominantly "white on black", but is often also more vicious when it is also "black on black". 

As far as RAP music is concerned, I have no interest in its origins and you certainly cannot use its origins to justify the verbage or the messaging. Just like you cannot use the "origins" to justify Golli's etc. Something is either wrong, or it isn't. Blacks using the "n" word is wrong. Blacks calling blacks the "n" word is wrong. End of.

I have "gollie" pins just like @Colin P. Like Colin, I would not dream of wearing them on my jacket as I am aware of the sensitivities around them. I don't really know why I have them. I probably "inherited them" from an Aunt or similar. I don't even know where there are (roughly, they will be in the attic in a box somewhere) and not sure what I would ever do with them. I certainly would never display or wear them.

Now what does piss me off, far more than "Golli's", is when people use the "race" card to be offended by:

Pub names - like the "black cock" - named after a fighting, historical, cockeral. Got naff all to do with "humans" and race, prejudice etc.

Statues, like Dave pointed out - the "black bitch" in Linlithgow. A stature of a historical dog, that was black in colour, and a bitch - hence the name.

This virtue signalling or "snowflake" behaviour is just wrong on so many levels. Many pubs are hundreds of years old and their names are linked to the places they are in. The people who have used them. Their trades, jobs, etc. We cannot and should not see our history air-brushed out just because one person out of thousands raises an objection.

And yes, slavery was awful. Totally barbaric. But I am sick and tired of it being a stone thrown at us, often, by the very same descendants of people/families who "profited" from slavery. Black on black slavery in Africa for instance was rife. Many "tribes" got very rich from capturing, enslaving, and trafficking Africans to the "Europeans". Where is the bile, rhetoric and restitution seeking against these people?  Any why is it still rife and allowed to go in countries in Africa, Asia and elsewhere? Feels like some people like throwing stones whilst ignoring the fact they are, themselves, in a glass house.

Slavery was and is something I have never been involved in, nor will ever be involved in. But I am not going to feel bad, beat myself up, or be eaten with guilt from the inside out, for something that happened from 200 years ago backwards, and for something I had no involvement in nor made a profit/gain from.

Racism is also something I have no truck with. I am not a racist at all. All I see are people. Human beings.

I don't judge people by the colour of their skin. Their sex. Their sexual choices. Their religion. Their disabilities. Their abilities. Everyone is judged by me as being the same and my opinion of them is based on how they behave to/with me, and that ultimately is what affects my judgement of them - their behaviour. Nothing else.

I have though, personally been judged, and prejudiced against, due to the colour of my skin, my sexuality, my weight and gender. But then as I am white. In the UK. It obviously never happened and I just dreamt it.

 

 

[r3nault]

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Are you really saying that no "white" has been racially targeted or attacked in the US, the UK, or in  Australia? Really?

No, that’s not what I’m saying. But I doubt any such person thought they no longer belonged in that country because of how they were treated. Ever been made to feel you don’t BELONG in the UK, Andy? I have, hundreds of times, in my country of birth.

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Racism is, to me (and feel free to correct what I have been taught to understand) the belief that different races possess different characteristics, abilities, behaviours, traits, qualities etc. These are then used to either a positive, or negative effect, justifying how the attitudes, beliefs or behaviours of one "race" marks them out to be more, or less, superior than another. 

I want to highlight the word “effect” here. Because that is what power relations has to do with it. Let’s say 100 men give 1 woman a hard time for being a woman in a workplace. Small things, like messing with her locker or her stuff, whatever. A few of them even say to her, “you’re not welcome here, bitch”. Would you agree she faced sexism? Now, let’s say she says back to 1 of the 100, “you’re a little bitch, I bet you pee sitting”. Did he face sexism? The answer is no, because her words have no power over him. He feels “safe” knowing there are 99 more with the same attributes and attitudes as him, so he can laugh off her insult (probably to her face).

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

As an example Groups of Asian men racially targeted, exploited, trafficked and abused white girls.They believed that, in short-hand, they were just "trash" and "inferior" to their own women, who they would not dream to treat in the same way and become very protective off if a white person even just shows them some kindness and interest.

Obviously inexcusable behaviour. Let’s break it down though. It is paedophilic, and likely sexist, for sure. The attitude behind the attack is racism, I agree - but only insofar as it originates from a group of people of presumably similar heritage (I have no background on this case). Whilst they should be rightfully condemned for such a despicable crime, I doubt every young girl in UK now feels they don’t belong in their country now because of it. As a contrast, there were some attacks here on Indian students a while back, which made all other Indians feel less safe in this country.

[r3nault]

By the way, “what aboutism” and Texas sharp shooter are common logical fallacies which deliberately distract from the central argument. You can find anecdotal examples of anything if you look hard enough. The exception does not make the rule

[C8RKH]

1 minute ago, r3nault said:

No, that’s not what I’m saying. But I doubt any such person thought they no longer belonged in that country because of how they were treated. Ever been made to feel you don’t BELONG in the UK, Andy? I have, hundreds of times, in my country of birth.

Actually, yes. As an Englishman living in Scotland for 30 years I've had more than my fair share of "fook off back to England you xxxx" comments, and once in a supermarket I was called a "traitor" for buying sparkling water that just happened to come from England. At one point my wife and I almost put the house on the market and were serious about leaving the country to "go back home".

So before you preach, or judge, suppose or whatever, you need to put your assumptions, or prejudices to one side. Just because I am white and live in the UK DOES NOT MEAN I have not been subjected to racist comments, like many others.

Indeed, in the 80's, white english who bought holiday homes in North Wales ran the risk of their homes being burnt down. Does that qualify as racism in your eyes?

And no, it wasn't peado's doing it - again you have prejudged.

So, yet again, I totally disagree with your view that white people cannot be subject to racism in the UK, or anywhere else. I will reiterate, racism is committed by anyone to anyone who is different to them. Black on black racism proves it is just not an issue of colour.

[r3nault]

What you describe is nationalism, not racism. And no, they are not the same thing.

Similarly, I’ve been told to eff off home back to my country, BASED ON MY SKIN COLOUR, when I am in the country I am from. What am I supposed to do with that?

Since this is predominantly a white, male forum, I don’t see my argument getting much traction here. People hate being made uncomfortable being confronted with the lived experiences of others.

My point does stand though: your responses are emblematic of why cancel culture exists - even though I don’t agree with it - in that you are unwilling to open mindedly engage in a productive dialogue on the issues at hand without resorting to whataboutisms and other logical fallacies which conveniently ignore the prevailing statistics about which way discrimination usually goes. Prove me wrong by engaging on the 100 men vs 1 woman example.

[C8RKH]

Suck it up!  Ignore it. Move on with your life. People can be shits, prejudiced, and just down right nasty.

We decided NOT to move as we decided we would stay just to piss them off! It was a little victory for "us", and worth it, as it meant we stayed local to many friends etc.

You're splitting hairs re racism and nationalism - the definition of racist stands true for any form for of radical nationalist - they think they are better, different, superior even.