Turbo options

[Bibs]

I don't know what led you to this conclusion, but you could not be more erroneous. My car is quicker than a V8, and the only significant modification is a turbo from WC Engineering.

Your turbo has given you ~100bhp extra from 264 to more than 350? Have you been on a rolling road to confirm this? Are you on the stock ECU? How are you quantifying that it's faster than a V8?

[matk]

I drive a non turbo car, but I must admit to starting to get a little frustrated with this thread. Everyone seems willing to make lots of claims for their cars and different specs, but no-one seems able to back anything up with hard, quantifiable, scientific data. I totally understand where Bibs is coming from.

[sanj]

Your turbo has given you ~100bhp extra from 264 to more than 350? Have you been on a rolling road to confirm this? Are you on the stock ECU? How are you quantifying that it's faster than a V8?

By pulling away from them on a racetrack.

[Tentenths]

Presumably you're talking timed 1/4 mile (or similar) otherwise there are surely just too many other variables at play.

[Paula&Marcus]

Yes Phil,

The 360

[Bibs]

By pulling away from them on a racetrack.

My SE pulled away from a 350bhp BMW CSL on a drive-out, perhaps the stock turbo makes me faster than a CSL!

Thanks for your input!

[sanj]

My SE pulled away from a 350bhp BMW CSL on a drive-out, perhaps the stock turbo makes me faster than a CSL!

Thanks for your input!

It's obvious you have zero interest in an actual discussion on this matter, so I'll leave you to your misinformed opinions.

[gghc87]

I apologise if I have read this wrong and quite happy to stand corrected, but in fairness Sanj, I think that Bibs was simply having a conversation at the level you had introduced in your previous post. Beating a car on a track one day does not in turn mean it will happen again and it could be that you where just the better driver on the day. Ferrari and MacLean can have bad days like everyone else but on paper they are often as not proven to be the better machines. You often see the same cars driven by different drives performing entirely differently. Surely it is quite reasonable for Bibs to ask for detail on the overall performance of your car to add positive and useful input for all the members. Having read this tread it seems to me that original question was asked by Bibs, so that he could try to make the best informed decision on his turbo issue but to do this greater detail was needed.

Edited November 6, 2007 by gghc87

[esprits4de]

You know, I started modding the engine, got rid of the turbo, went all through the oprical mods, got rid of the pop-up lights, rid the Citroen mirrors, got bigger wheels, better air intakes, hell even did a lambo door mod, finally I am left with the fromt turn signals, please gimme some input what I can do there !

, so is almost everyone else...

[sanj]

I apologise if I have read this wrong and quite happy to stand corrected, but in fairness Sanj, I think that Bibs was simply having a conversation at the level you had introduced in your previous post. Beating a car on a track one day does not in turn mean it will happen again and it could be that you where just the better driver on the day. Ferrari and MacLean can have bad days like everyone else but on paper they are often as not proven to be the better machines. You often see the same cars driven by different drives performing entirely differently. Surely it is quite reasonable for Bibs to ask for detail on the overall performance of your car to add positive and useful input for all the members. Having read this tread it seems to me that original question was asked by Bibs, so that he could try to make the best informed decision on his turbo issue but to do this greater detail was needed.

His use of the smiley and his pointless silly remark would tend to indicate otherwise, and I never said I beat a V8 just once, nor did I make a claim of any particular horsepower number. That said, my car has consistently been capable of out accelerating any stock V8 Esprit I have ever gone up against on the straightaways of a road course. I'm sorry that I don't have any rolling road data for him, but my actual real-world results have been more than enough to satisfy me. If he chooses to believe a WC turbo is no better than a stock one, that is his problem.

[ragingfool35]

can you feel the love in this topic?!

sheesh

how about next LOG, owners do some timed runs and list their mods

not the most scientific method, but the faster cars' setups could at least be copied

thats pretty much how the muscle car world works

[Paula&Marcus]

Olaf,

hihihihihihihihi ... that was a good one

Did you actually get rid of your turbo ????

Cheers

Marcus

You know, I started modding the engine, got rid of the turbo, went all through the oprical mods, got rid of the pop-up lights, rid the Citroen mirrors, got bigger wheels, better air intakes, hell even did a lambo door mod, finally I am left with the fromt turn signals, please gimme some input what I can do there !

, so is almost everyone else...

[t70]

Sanj... you must at least have a chip on top of the turbo. We were destroyed by the v8 tt (supposedly equipped with the "RED" ecu) on our trip. However, I will say this.. with the WC engineering turbo, the larger intercooler and the electric pump... we were able to race a 360 and stay with him from 0 to about 120km/h. So... the WC appears to be a fantastic setup... which would perform phenomenally with the chip though.

[sanj]

Sanj... you must at least have a chip on top of the turbo. We were destroyed by the v8 tt (supposedly equipped with the "RED" ecu) on our trip. However, I will say this.. with the WC engineering turbo, the larger intercooler and the electric pump... we were able to race a 360 and stay with him from 0 to about 120km/h. So... the WC appears to be a fantastic setup... which would perform phenomenally with the chip though.

I have a standard S4s MkV chip, and the larger intercooler with the stock pump.

I did say "stock" V8, not modified, though. My friend Young has a 25th Anniversary V8 with reflowed turbos, a Johan ECU, and K&Ns -- I can just stay with him until fourth gear, when he starts to walk away.

Edited November 7, 2007 by sanj

[Esprit Aviation]

It would be nice if someone impartial could be responsible for trying each turbo set-up on the same vehicle. This would include only changing the turbo recommended by the turbo suppliers. All to be recorded via rolling road. Sort of a 'Consumer Reports' of the turbo world!

Anyone have any idea how to implement such a thing? With $$ and the like?

As an aside, I would personally like to eliminate all boost when cruising down the highway to improve efficiency, reducing heat, etc. Only on the wastegate end. No sense in the turbo spinning to beat hell and not making boost! Something that could be switched on and off when needed, but w/o serious complexity!! Very important!!

Edited November 7, 2007 by Esprit Aviation

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi Sanji,

Thats a great number. More than 350 HP with the factory S4s MKV code. Wow !

The factory stock S4s code gives "only" 1.16 bar max boost.

This tells us that your engine is very efficient !

From my experience we also get around 350 HP with the following mods:

- K&N filter, ram-air mod

- big c/cooler

- Reflowed turbo (compressor wheel < 70mm)

- high flow secondary injectors

- metal cat (200 cells/in)

- high flow exhaust

Do you still have the stock cat installed ?

Cheers

Marcus

I have a standard S4s MkV chip, and the larger intercooler with the stock pump.

I did say "stock" V8, not modified, though. My friend Young has a 25th Anniversary V8 with reflowed turbos, a Johan ECU, and K&Ns -- I can just stay with him until fourth gear, when he starts to walk away.

[Bibs]

I'd be happy to do this with all options inc rolling road, everyday driving and track work to make a comparison. The trouble is that if I were to buy all 3 turbo options (perhaps 4 for a stock turbo comparison) then I'd struggle to sell the 3 which I don't want, and that would tie up a lot of cash until they went so I personally can't do it.

If all the suppliers concerned were to send me a turbo I'd cover the installation/rolling road/track day costs and purchase the best one and return the others as this would be a useful exercise for all Esprit owners.

[mangel]

I'd be interested in the results of this.

Bibs I may be able to sort a deal on the rolling road thang if you've not got anyone in mind!!

[Vulcan Grey]

Hi Sanji,

Thats a great number. More than 350 HP with the factory S4s MKV code. Wow !

The factory stock S4s code gives "only" 1.16 bar max boost.

This tells us that your engine is very efficient !

From my experience we also get around 350 HP with the following mods:

- K&N filter, ram-air mod

- big c/cooler

- Reflowed turbo (compressor wheel < 70mm)

- high flow secondary injectors

- metal cat (200 cells/in)

- high flow exhaust

Do you still have the stock cat installed ?

Cheers

Marcus

Wait... I thought we all should know by now that stock Esprit V8's don't make 350hp at the wheels, and stock SE's often make more than 264hp at the wheels.

I've seen V8 dynos at ~295hp, and stock SE's at 275+... Also the torque figures seem to be about the same for the V8's and SE's IIRC, both at ~300ft-lb. Not to mention an 89SE is ~300lb lighter than a V8.

My own stock SE dynoed better than a group of modified Porsche 928's including an S, a highly modified 944turbo, an highly modified X180-R (though the owner claims a broken intercooler ) and was second only to a highly modified Viper. The dyno was at 8300ft though... It was one of those Mustang dynos, kinda weird numbers, and the guys that run it gave me a correction factor that would have put me at 344hp at the crank... not that I believe that, but whatever.

I don't find it hard to believe a well running SE (with Sanj's Sport 300 AP brakes, and other mods) could show a V8 a thing or too.

BTW, we had a guy at Backhawk Farms with a 4cy Esprit GT1 engine in his S4 with full adjustable suspension, 6 piston AP racing brakes, a huge T4 turbo, and the Blue Race Chip... And he couldn't pull away from an X180-R wth a blue race chip, and a T3-T4 hybrid... Infact the X180-R was beating him down the straight with 2 people in it...

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi Travis,

I was under the impression that the HP numbers are crank numbers for both, the 4-Cylinder and the V8.

The V8 has 350HP crank and Sanji's 4-Cylinder should also have around 350Hp crank max. power.

Of course the torque band with the V8 is wider, I'm pretty sure about that.

Cheers

Marcus

www.PUKesprit.de

Edited November 7, 2007 by Bibs

[mike_sekinger]

........BTW, we had a guy at Backhawk Farms with a 4cy Esprit GT1 engine .......

GT2 please..... Lotus only ran the V8 in GT1.....

back to the thread.....

[Vulcan Grey]

GT2 please..... Lotus only ran the V8 in GT1.....

back to the thread.....

Sorry Mike, that should have been 4Cyl Esprit "GT1", because that was what the owner was claiming...

The engine was from a Sport 300, and had a"LeMans" plaque on it (I did read it). I can't remember exactly what it said, but I do recall "GT1", and he claimed it was from one of the "GT1" racecars.

[Jonathan]

I'd be happy to do this with all options inc rolling road...

Now ya talkin !

There must be people with these fitted etc - Rog has a WC turbo waiting to be installed - why not get his car on the rollers and then we'll swap the turbo over and have a go ? be a good day out - the one we did last year was a great day out, they'd probably run that for us again (being Milton Keynes nice and central).

Proof of the pudding is in the eating - you can claim figures and 'I know a friend of a friend' all day - car to car racing is pointless unless you are in same gears and so on, the difference between you 'beating' another car can be 1/10th of a second who gets the hammer down 1st and who makes a better gear change.

I've had a few raised eye brows at my performance figures but if they're on a calibrated dyno where a direct comparison and non-massaging of the figured can be gained that is the only way you can really asses the performance.

Afterall isn't this how they are tuned in the first place ?

Only thing I would suggest is when we did the rollers they were pretty much only interested in peak performance which might not help here - you want to gauge response and so on so a 'simple' rolling road test might not be enough.

[Esprit Aviation]

Bibs,

I suspect that the Turbo suppliers would welcome virtually free head to head testing as it would show each turbo's strongest attributes.

Not everyone will want the same characteristics out of a turbo. I'm running a high compression/low boost set-up to achieve what I feel is a good level of power and economy. I know it isn't what everyone else wants, but obviously I require a different turbo to do the job. So basically, all turbos being discussed have certain desirable characteristics, and will appeal to someone.

Now the trick is to get the turbo providers to put their turbo where their mouth is and provide them free of charge to you to perform and document the tests. If I had a similar product w/ certain claims, you can be assured that I would jump @ the chance to have someone spend THEIR time and THEIR $$$$ to thoroughly test my product!

It doesn't mean that the ones you don't want are undesirable. It will merely be your choice that works best w/ your level of performance mods. The others can then be sent back, and I'm sure could easily be sold @ a bit of a discount, so the vendors would not lose much $$, but instead gain a wealth of test knowledge.

[andydclements]

For some reason i think this thread has similar traits to those of the AEG ones, can anyone think why?

Anyway, on topic.

The only things that would scupper a head to head comparison of different uprated turbos (as I see it ) are:

Runs vary in results despite all things being equal (same car, same setup, temperature etc) so you'd have potential for "luck" of good or bad runs.

Different turbos may operate better then each other at different situations (air temp etc)

Cars with altered turbos may well have other alterations as well, so it's not just the turbos impacting.

Different cars straight form the factory would give different power results, so you can't tell the difference the turbo change makes.

Then, at the end of all the work you'd possibly have a couple of power & torque curves, which one is "best" is still bedatable, the one with the lowest spool up time, the highest peak power , the highest peak torque etc, there are so many options for defining "best".

That doesn't even touch things like, longevity in service, cost etc.

So my opinion is, you'll be taking a bit of a stab in the dark as to whether any certain turbo upgrade is the one that gives what you want (assuming the person knows excatly what they want), yuo can try and make an informed choice, but there's still a lot of luck and opinion in the decision making process.

If somebody wants to upgrade their turbo (and I probably will at some point), they need to listen to other people's opinions, then decide if they are guided by those opinions, and make their own choice.

Andy