Lotus in the post DB era

[Kimbers]

Anyone think of a German engine like the Lambo?

I know MJK looked at several for the new Esprit before deciding on something else. But it's always an option.

[Gus82]

A new Esprit with Evora chassis bmw or toyota engine and at 911 price and performance is not bad to me.

This plan but with the Nissan GTR engine sounds perfect to me. An £80 or £85K Esprit that could share a new dashboard with the Evora would be money well spent.

[TBD]

Anyone think of a German engine like the Lambo?

But why would one buy an Audi powered Lotus if they can get the same engine plus umatched build quality in the R8? Aside from that, th V10 is quite a bit longer and the 4.2 Ltr. V8 is near end-of-life, the RS4 probably being its last reincarnation.

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

Because it will handle better, be a far more engaging drive and feel like a proper drivers car as opposed to a fat TT. Aside from that why would anyone buy a Lotus over an Audi?

[Kimbers]

Because the R8 looks like an obese TT and why would you want a hairdressers car when you could have a Lotus?

What Lotus do best is take someone else's engine under license and make it fit their needs and aspirations. Whether that means making it lighter, fitting a Supercharger etc etc.

Frankly I'm not worried because even if they took a Kia engine they'd make it awesome!

[Edit] Damn you Stirling you beat me to it!!

[richardvg]

Because the R8 looks like an obese TT and why would you want a hairdressers car when you could have a Lotus?

What Lotus do best is take someone else's engine under license and make it fit their needs and aspirations. Whether that means making it lighter, fitting a Supercharger etc etc.

Frankly I'm not worried because even if they took a Kia engine they'd make it awesome!

[Edit] Damn you Stirling you beat me to it!!

agree with you here

the way i see it going in the future ,like F1, is smaller engines yet more power.next year we will see 1600 twin turbo delivering more power than ever.

VW have ,for instance, managed to get 125kw out of the TSI spec engine ,,,imagine what you can do with a 1600 turbo/supercharged motor .....200 kw and a 2.0 l 260 -300 kw ........there is the space saver ,lightweight quickie.

[TBD]

Because it will handle better, be a far more engaging drive and feel like a proper drivers car as opposed to a fat TT. Aside from that why would anyone buy a Lotus over an Audi?

Well I did! I chose the Evora S over the TT RS because as Tony said, the TT RS looks S**t. I haven't regretted it at all, but the engine needed tuning to be more than a camry and I would still like to bury that diesel gearbox in a dark and damp swamp . I would trade in for a new one tomorrow if MY2013 had a Lotus engine and a decent dual clutch gearbox.

But with the Esprit we're talking flagship car and that is something completely different. And that means handling, looks, build quality and, maybe most of all, image have to be top of the tops. To be successfull current Audi R8 owners have to buy the Esprit and they certainly won't if they get the same engine with less build quality.

[chandrew]

I would trade in for a new one tomorrow if MY2013 had a Lotus engine and a decent dual clutch gearbox.

That's their problem. I wouldn't touch one unless it's got a proper manual. Paddles make you feel like you're playing a computer game - it's telling that the last few I drove I ended up putting them in auto after a while as if you no longer need skill to change gears why not leave it to the computer which can always do a more efficient and well-timed job.

[simonb]

My feeling is that the way technology is moving, you will have to take engine / transmission packages as a sealed unit. It is all about CO2, so you have stop start / coasting / automatic transmission / cylinders cutting themselves off, all to reduce the (measured for test) CO2. Give the engine to Lotus to retune, you are in danger of getting something that is better to drive, more efficient in real life, far more fun, far more engaging BUT when you look at the stats published the same engine in a 2 ton SUV on manufacturers map has lower CO2 (=lower tax) and better (ficticious) mpg

Edited July 31, 2012 by simonb

[richardvg]

My feeling is that the way technology is moving, you will have to take engine / transmission packages as a sealed unit. It is all about CO2, so you have stop start / coasting / automatic transmission / cylinders cutting themselves off, all to reduce the (measured for test) CO2. Give the engine to Lotus to retune, you are in danger of getting something that is better to drive, more efficient in real life, far more fun, far more engaging BUT when you look at the stats published the same engine in a 2 ton SUV on manufacturers map has lower CO2 (=lower tax) and better (ficticious) mpg

Agree totally ....however there is more to that ,,,the cars shown in 2011 will already have dated by the time they reach production which may only be in say ,,,,2014/5 The Lamborghini Aventador came out late last year (very similar in styling to the new Lotus ethos for example) and by the time Lotus release a new car ,it has dated in style .Hence my argument ,BRING AN ELAN OUT NOW !

[Kimbers]

Absolutely to everyone.

Being in the industry I've noticed a huge change in engine technology recently. We have always placed our cars in different "groups" for rental by engine size. So a CAT 1 car is a 1.0 (normally a city car 107, Picanto), CAT 2 1.2-1.4 (Supermini 207, Polo etc), CAT 3 1.6-2.0 hatchback (Normally Diesel 308, Golf etc) and so on.

However all the new cars are bucking this trend. For example Peugeot have brought out their new 208. The 1.4 engine has been replaced with a 1.0 with only 2hp less and similar torque figures. The new 1.2 has 12hp more than the old 1.4....yet the Co2 is 40g/km lower.

If you look at the new Kia range they are the same. The 1.4 has been replaced with a 1.125 with more HP than the 1.4!!

Its the same throughout the ranges and I would suspect that it will go the same way with Performance cars. MJK saw this which is why he went with a 6 cylinder rather than a V8 for the Evora. This would also keep costs down and help seperate it from the new Esprit.

[V8 FOU]

I would have thought that with Lotus being a very low volume manufacturer, the emission and safety regs are not so stringent. But there again I may be talking balls.

Personally, I would much rather see the Esprit with a Lotus engine, but in reality I s'pose a "foreign" one will have to do.

[Bibs]

The Elise/Exige has to drop the 1.8 due to Euro V emission regs.

[red vtec]

Why dont they actually take the leap and go for future powerplants, i.e hybred. V8, V10, V12 will all be old hat very, very soon, all the competitors are going hybred very soon. Jaguar, Ferrari etc are all going that route in the near future.

Edited July 31, 2012 by red vtec

[NedaSay]

I would have thought that with Lotus being a very low volume manufacturer, the emission and safety regs are not so stringent. But there again I may be talking balls.

Personally, I would much rather see the Esprit with a Lotus engine, but in reality I s'pose a "foreign" one will have to do.

Since Euro IV and more so with Euro V the same rules do apply to all carmakers regardless of their size when it comes to emission and safety! Besides a carmaker also has to consider the drastic safety and emission regulations of California which in essence these set the bar for the US regulations.

Nevertheless McLaren showed that it was possible to produce a brand new engine even for a low volume manufacturer. So I'm guessing that the Lotus V8 could become a reality if enough of them could be sold. In DB's plan the V8 was to serve three cars Esprit, Elite and Eterne. Now Elite and Eterne have been canned. The V8 could still be profitable but they'll need to sell Esprit by the thousands every year to generate a positive ROI.

[TBD]

The V8 is designed to be easily scaled to a 4 or 6 cylinder engine. As Lotus will inevitably come back to the expanded range (be thy call it Elan, Eterne, or Enorm) I'm quite certain the business case is still there. Specifically when you consider that they must have spent 50% of the development costs already, i.e. whatever they do thay have to measure the additional expenditure needed to complete the development against the writeoff and supplier contract termination costs.

I'm sure it will look better in the books if they complete the bespoke V8.

[Bee]

I have to agree with Thomas: the Esprit is going to be Lotus' flagship model! Lotus is going to be judged by the world, and its respective motoring presses, upon the debut of the Esprit; realistically, its standing and reputation will be heavily dependent on this one model.

If it is seen as a poor man's [place model name, here] then Lotus will be seen as only being capable of making 'enthusiast's' cars, pocket rockets ect. ... much in the way most people perceive Caterham, Morgan, TVR ect. I cannot see Lotus forging a future where it is able to make enough of a profit to offset its debts if it goes down that path. Even if they were to produce an everyday, cheap Elan to tempt people from their MX-5s, how would they produce it in the numbers needed for such a tiny profit margin to become meaningful?

If the Esprit proves itself to be capable of standing favourably alongside the McLaren MP12-4C and Ferrari 458 Italia (and yes, that includes the quality/finesse of the cabin/interior, a fabulous drivetrain and slick, effective gearing), then it will be seen as having a future, and there will be persuasive arguments for expanding the range. Regardless of who the owners are, it is difficult not to see Lotus' future riding on this car!

[Iconic Ride]

Historically the Esprit has, to a large degree, been perceived as "the poor man's [insert marque name here]," "poor" being a relative term here of course. That it would compete, performance wise, with the likes of Ferrari and Lambo, et al, for considerably less wonga was generally seen as a plus by most "enthusiasts." In point of fact, many purchasers of the higher priced "supercars" acquire them for reasons other than driving enthusiasm per se, rather more as statements of class warfare to the less fortunate rabble. If you've "arrived," human nature is bound to prevail. And that is not inherently wrong. We all have egos to maintain afterall.

The Esprit stands in a class of its own, neither Bugatti outrageous, nor Corvette "everyman's" hot rod. It fills a need, and is accessible to a sizable demographic. At least if has been historically. Now the dilemma is whether or not to radically move up scale into the big dog exotics range, a range that exponentially pares away potential clients due to financial limitations. It's a business decision that carries great risk, but also potentially great rewards as well. Can Lotus pull it off? And to what degree do the current "troubles" affect the roll of the dice? It wil be exceedingly interesting to see if DRB-Hicom continue on with the previous plan, or dial it back to more traditional Hethel productions.

[Nelly]

Superbly put John,.

[Gus82]

I agree that John's overall thinking too. Given the smaller budget now available to Lotus they could...

Do a McLaren and go for building 11 or 12 very closely related (i.e. same basic engine, gearbox, layout and structure) high priced supercars a week for a wealthy audience, but would probably have to ditch the entire existing range. The following link is for a new Autocar article about McLaren that is interesting as a comparison: http://www.autocar.c...tive-–-one-year

Or...

It could try to make future versions of the existing range more profitable by being more focussed and basing all models on a very closely related but cheaper component set. Perhaps a short wheel base lightweight Exige V6, plus larger Evora 2+2 and Esprit sub-supercar using variations of a common v6 and gearbox bought in from another manufacturer and a single platform, with prices ranging from £50,000 to £100,000 (+ more for racing versions etc.). All three of these cars could even share a version of the same interior and dashboard so that they don't need to spread the development budget too thin developing 3 different ones but can still aim to compete with manufacturers such as Porsche for design and quality (which has always been Lotus' Achilles heel)

Or...

Do a Caterham e.g. stick to the Elise. Minimal staff, minimal development, very small sales ambitions, get around safety requirements with racing harnesses rather than airbags etc. Lotus has more engineering talent than this and I would hate to see Lotus reduced to this.

I have no idea which of these solutions would be safer, but I'm not sure that Lotus would attract buyers for cars priced at over £100,000 if they still sell Elises or Evoras due to badge snobbery. If Lotus wants to stay in the current Elise market or develop a new version of the original Elan they will need a volume car maker as a development or production partner. Sad but I fear true.....

Edited August 1, 2012 by Gus82

[Iconic Ride]

"...but I'm not sure that Lotus would attract buyers for cars priced at over £100,000 if they still sell Elises or Evoras due to badge snobbery."

A perceptive observation, Angus. The only comparison I can think of offhand is the Ferrari Dino standing in for the relative equivalent of an Elise or Evora. It's a poor comparison, really, but I don't know that it necessarily slowed down sales of the higher end models. It would probably require an alternative universe "control" study to find out.

Quite obviously most major manufacturers of "normal" marques seem not at all hampered by offering a complete range of price points, but the cachet of "supercars" is undeniably influenced by purchase prices as exotic as the cars themselves. The hauteur factor is a not inconsiderable component of supercar ownership to some sizable fraction of potential buyers. To what degree lower cost models of the marque might influence desirability of the flagship offering is open to serious conjecture.

[Exploded]

DRB-Hicom to pour in RM1 bil to develop Proton City

Tanjung Malim is set to see significant growth and progression over the next five years, with DRB-Hicom planning to ramp up development of Proton City.

According to a Bernama report. the corporation is set to inject more than RM1 billion into developing the area, which is home to the Proton Tanjung Malim assembly plant.

Over the next half-decade, the sleepy-hollow place and its surrounding areas will be transformed into a vibrant automotive town, Perak Menteri Besar Datuk Seri Dr Zambry Abdul Kadir told reporters. When Proton City – which began in 1996 – is fully developed, it is expected to have a population of about 240,000.

At the moment, only 30% of the 1,618 hectares has been developed, Zambry explained, adding that the state government had conferred with DRB-Hicom on plans to develop the area.

Plans are afoot to build up the infrastructure in and around Tanjung Malim, including building an access road to Proton City from the North-South Expressway to ease the movement of Proton vehicles being brought out of Proton City. A commercial centre and a school is also slated to be built in the area.

source

That is the figure mentioned to finish the Esprit (with own V8 engine)...

[Iconic Ride]

Go on........

[TBD]

RM1 billion is about 260 million Euro,, so it only goes to show how inexpensive it is to build in Asia.

We're spending almost double that amount to build the Elbphilharmonie in Hamburg. Now that is something to gripe about! :realmad:

Considering what BMW/Daimler/VW/GM/... spend to develop any car its peanuts. Not to mention the McLaren MC4-12

[richardvg]

How can you put a price on culture > Just because they can employ x amount of people ,does not mean anything in the broader scheme of developing more refined culture ........cmon Thomas