Future of Lotus

[Neal H]

8 hours ago, jep said:

But why could they make S1 for £19k when an MX5 was circa £14k in 1998 but can't make an Elise in 2020 for £35k profitably when oppo is circa £25k? What has changed? 

Justin 

 

I think the problem was that at £19k it was never close to profitable.

[mdavies]

10 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

Would people buy a china made lotus? - or even a geely car badged as a lotus.

Apple phones, made wherever, maintain their Apple flavour and - as the OS - even the pips.  Presenting manufacturing as “merely knocking together the bits” – however intensely technical we know it is in practice, with machinery costing multimillions – whilst preserving “what really matters”, the brand, the image, the decisions, the magic – the core – as resident in Cupertino, is conjuring readily performed to an audience more than willing to accept it.

Ditto for Lotus?  I don’t see why not: many aspects translate from Apple fairly readily. “Brand” - of course, rooted in our “precious sporting heritage”.  Design – in Hethel, "co-located with world class Lotus Engineering”.  Dynamics - on “Lotus’s own FAA approved test circuit by our uniquely gifted and capable experts”.  Power management systems – Lotus specified and tuned. Management, key staff, image, advertising, PR  - Hethel of course.

Properly presented  - don’t ask negative questions - of course it’s British. It’s a Lotus. Who cares where the bits are knocked together.

Edited February 1, 2021 by mdavies

[Andyww]

36 minutes ago, mdavies said:

 

Properly presented  - don’t ask negative questions - of course it’s British. It’s a Lotus. Who cares where the bits are knocked together.

True and the Apple comparison is valid. Even the Chinese who buy Apple phones by the million consider them to be a US product.
A China-made Lotus would certainly be far more British than the MG cars sold all over Asia. They are branded as British and have a union flag on the sides but the only connection they have to Britain is pretty much a couple of Brummies drinking tea in an office near the old Longbridge factory.

[NedaSay]

4 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

130 Evijas over 2 years at £2m a pop is almost exactly the same turnover as 1800 Elise/Exige/Evoras.

65 x £2m = £130m.

1800 x £75000 (estimated average per unit) = £135m

So yup 135m for two years...  Versus according to your own math 135m a year for all current cars 1800 cars.

[NedaSay]

3 hours ago, duncx said:

Blimey, that really would be different! I've thought for a while that it could be problematic for Lotus to become more 'mainstream' whilst  building car shells with fibreglass. It's ok for us enthuisiasts and perfect for small scale production but lets face it, it's not an ideal material for everyday use and bigger numbers.

Back under MJK Lotus engineering did a lot of work on metal lightweighting, Using a Toyota Venza as model for weight loss... they shed weight massively. I believe some of that work continued under DB, albeit with a skeleton team, and under JMG again.  There's nothing official about the switch to an aluminium body yet though. But got very strong hint that the new car may be even more alloy heavy than Evora... that would mean the core chassis, but also front and rear subframes and yes the body:  doors, roof, and possibly other part of the skin of the thing. JMG both hinted at full aluminium body as a way to minimize weight gains.

[NedaSay]

Weight gains being pretty much compulsory when adding a big fat battery to the car...

[jep]

9 hours ago, Neal H said:

I think the problem was that at £19k it was never close to profitable.

Why was it £19k then in 98? There was a one year waiting list at the time. 800 target sales was blown away. Did they just get the maths wrong? And if they did, why did they not raise the price once they saw huge demand?

I have just read a period Autocar road test from 98. Price at £19k is considered cheap - so a rise to say £22k would have been easy. Surely the calcs for profitability cannot have been that far out. 

Justin 

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

7 hours ago, NedaSay said:

So yup 135m for two years...  Versus according to your own math 135m a year for all current cars 1800 cars.

Please re-check the math(s). The £130m is for only 65 Evija sales, I.e. ONE year, so similar to the 1800 current car output.

[C8RKH]

8 hours ago, Andyww said:

They are branded as British and have a union flag on the sides but the only connection they have to Britain is pretty much a couple of Brummies drinking tea in an office near the old Longbridge factory.

And that's why the new MG cars come with an 8 year warranty and they work, reliably. The fastest growing car brand by sales in the UK. 

Hmmm, a Lotus built in China but with Hethel style, dynamics and heritage. OK. I'm in!

[Barrykearley]

The second it becomes a China built product - I’m afraid my interest drops completely.

Buy British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[Andyww]

Actually Vietnam is the new China for production. Expect to see export manufacturing in China decline over the next few years. It will be replaced by manufacturing for China domestic consumption though.

[NedaSay]

16 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

The second it becomes a China built product - I’m afraid my interest drops completely.

Buy British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

Your computer was made in Britain?

[mg4lotus]

31 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

The second it becomes a China built product - I’m afraid my interest drops completely.

Buy British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

What if they fit ceramic brakes? Will it then be china built? 

[mg4lotus]

Maybe iphone wasn't the best example to use for the analogy. Top of the range iphone £1000 - Top of the range Nokia android phone £350

[DarrylV8]

16 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I cannot get on with that wing I am afraid. We're all different and should be thankful for that but it looks like something from Halfords to me and I hate it.

I came very close to buying a GT430 but it would have cost me c.£4k for an extra carbon engine hatch WITHOUT the wing.  The rest of the car, stunning.

I would have swapped engine hatches for when I went on track (with wing) or road (without wing).

the CF (sport) tailgate from Lotus back in Sept 2018 cost around £2300 which we can swop over with the GT430 tailgate/wing in about 1/2hour.  Depending on where we are driving will dictate which tailgate is on car.

[C8RKH]

That's what I would have ended up doing. You sir, have taste!

[Giveitfish]

On 02/02/2021 at 07:19, jep said:

Why was it £19k then in 98? There was a one year waiting list at the time. 800 target sales was blown away. Did they just get the maths wrong? And if they did, why did they not raise the price once they saw huge demand?

I have just read a period Autocar road test from 98. Price at £19k is considered cheap - so a rise to say £22k would have been easy. Surely the calcs for profitability cannot have been that far out. 

Justin 

 

My old Elise S1 was over £26k as sold IIRC, that was a ‘99 car.

[jep]

111S was £26,590 in 1999. Standard car had risen to £22,500 by 99. I have looked up period road tests. I bought a 111S in 99, with metallic paint it was a lick over £27k. 

When S2 launched in 01, standard car was £22,995. 

Justin

[phil flash]

On 02/02/2021 at 07:19, jep said:

Why was it £19k then in 98? There was a one year waiting list at the time. 800 target sales was blown away. Did they just get the maths wrong? And if they did, why did they not raise the price once they saw huge demand?

I have just read a period Autocar road test from 98. Price at £19k is considered cheap - so a rise to say £22k would have been easy. Surely the calcs for profitability cannot have been that far out. 

Justin 

 

It never was £19k !   I ordered one November '95, paid £1k deposit and order said "Basic Price of Elise to be under £20,000"...   By the time they got production going the first Price List had Factory Price at £16,978.72 but by the time "Mandatory Alarm", "Delivery & Number Plates" and "Road Tax" were added the most basic Elise was £20,850.  With all the usual extras it was £23,337 and for that you got a radio fitting kit but no radio. I don't ever remember prices going down when there was a long waiting list.

[Barrykearley]

Mandatory option 😂 love that. How very EU .

[phil flash]

Hethel is not far from me, before lockdown I was frequently in the local pub for owners' meets, so I offered to collect it with my own number plates to save £465 ..  the answer sounded a bit like "cough" ..😂  

[Giveitfish]

On 04/02/2021 at 06:49, jep said:

111S was £26,590 in 1999. Standard car had risen to £22,500 by 99. I have looked up period road tests. I bought a 111S in 99, with metallic paint it was a lick over £27k. 

When S2 launched in 01, standard car was £22,995. 

Justin

It was a "W" reg Millennium edition, standard non-VVC engine. So it had a few extras such as driving lights and OZ wheels, but even so it's a big % more than an MX5 of the time.

[mdavies]

Optimistically wondering if the following could be relevant to this thread, I'm posting it here - conceivably it might apply to any or all models.   Extract from an Evo email:

.........next issue of evo will arrive a few days later than usual. I hope you'll forgive us for the one-off delay, which is due to a number of manufacturer enforced embargos that lift on the day of publication.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Oh no, not another new 911!

[duncx]

Doubt it's the 131 but details of the Final Edition Elise/Exige cars are due for release on Tuesday 9th I believe - could be that?