Future of Lotus

[C8RKH]

Interesting story here re purchasing of McLarens by a father and son, note the wonky number plate on the purple car...  Glad I bought a new Lotus!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7qpUqwLS9o

 

On a different note, having seen the pictures I do believe that a Ferrari Roma is now on my future wish list given that most people on here believe the next Lotus cars will not be as they should be.  I was considering a 570S from McLaren but not after that video....

[Jacques]

What a sad way of treating customers.

When a friend of mine wanted to buy an old american v8 of some sort, we looked on the web for possible deals, contacted over time a total of four different dealers, and drove there to see, inspect, try and eventually buy the car(-s). We had carefully looked at all the photomaterial beforehand on every single car and we had at every instance also called each of the dealers and asked them a lot of questions realating condition of car, if anything needed to be corrected, serviced, milage, servicehistory etc. We only had possitive answers in all four cases.

The problems came when we arrived at each of the dealerships. At every single occasion, the car was very far from what they had stated it was, milage was different, car was not serviced as promissed, servicehistory wasn't there despite being promissed, the general state of the car was quite bad compared to what was told to us, and in one occasion there was suddenly a very shady story as to the payment on import tax had actually been paid (180% tax on top of the price you guys get them for). On one occasion we had to help the dealership to repair and start the car.

In every single case, my friend and I had taken a day off work, and drove a roundtrip of at least 400 miles. At every single dealership they told us what some would call lies, tried to hide paperwork for us, that we managed to find anyway, and which was clear proof of the history of the car(-s) were rather different than what we were told by the dealers.

On a secondary note, during these for instances, it became clear to us that neither dealership had correct paperwork, couldn't spell or write correct paperwork also including finances (banktransfer, not a loan), all of them did not tell the truth about insurance, and all of them did not tell the truth about their cars.

He didn't buy any of them even though we in each case went there with the purpose of finalising a deal and bring the car home.

So recently, I went out with another friend of mine, who wanted to buy a sporty version of a VW Golf VII. At all three dealerships we were being told the same mumbo jumbo like I described in the above. The nicest person from any of those dealerships, was a teenager who offered us a cup of coffee, while waiting). We then went on to see a car from a private seller, and stroke a deal. The private seller had his papers in perfect order, the car in perfect order and a deal was done.

At no time was money an object in any of these cases.

So much for the dealerships. Fortunately there are also good ones out there, but should it really be like that? I am not talking about shady back yard dealers, but big wellknown dealerships.

When I went looking to buy a Lotus Esprit, i went to three dealerships (used sportscars) in Sweden, none being available here in Denmark. One was selling his private Esprit, but it wasn't in very good condition, and the other two were really just a repetition of the aforementioned. None were interested in actually wellcoming a customer, none had their Esprit in close to good order. I later heard from another club, that they broke down seriously, with dead engines, shortly after being bought by other customers.

Just to put this into perspective: as a teenager I bought the biggest Bang&Olufsen system, and was treated very badly by a particular dealership. We are talking a system worth 7000 gbp some 35 years ago. All members of my family having been repeated Bang&Olufsen customers for years, myself included. I contacted B&O headquarters being a teenager and all  and was treated with the curtesy and respect that every deal, being small or big, should be done. B&O closed down that dealership. Since then I have only felt very wellcome and treated very well, whenever I bought something from B&O, being a cheap little coffee cup or a new 10000 gbp tv set. Point is, that these unfortunate experiences can take place everywhere, also with things that are seriously expensive and from which one would normally expect better.

With my own little private leather work thingy going on, I treat every customer as they should be, with interest and respect. I stand by my guarantee of quality and service. I've been contacted by three other persons who wanted to include my little stuff into their own businesses, but I declined, because of lack of professionalism, lack of quality and lack of service. As JayEm rightly stated in his video, it's about repeated customers.

Personally, I have experienced only very polite, wellcoming, honest and good people whenever I have bought a car or motorcycle from a private seller, with all details rearding payment, condition of vehicle, all papers in good order and so on. When I bought my present Laverda from a dealership, I was also treateed very nicely, correct and with everything good order. Maybe I was just lucky.

But should luck be a part of making a deal on buying a car or motorcycle from a dealership?

Kind regards,

Jacques

[KAS-118]

11 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Go the UK Lotus web site, go to dealers, bring up the map and you will see there are currently some 28 dealers on the map. If the number is wrong then Lotus needs to update its website. The article suggests that some dealers will go, and they replaced by others, but the net result is a similar 25-30 dealers in the UK.

I believe 10 of those are only Service Centres - not Dealers? 

[Mark030358]

On 20/12/2019 at 22:43, C8RKH said:

So what other cars have you bought, from other manufacturers, in that time where the factory followed up directly with you? And I don't mean those automated surveys via the phone or email etc.

Bearing in mind that also, in these days of GDPR, the dealers are not actually allowed to share your information with the factory unless you expressly give permission first.

Audi.....

[C8RKH]

9 hours ago, KAS-118 said:

I believe 10 of those are only Service Centres - not Dealers? 

Ah. Sorry, had not realised that. So average of 14 new cars sales per dealer. Still not enough to pay for a swanky showroom.

1 hour ago, Mark030358 said:

Audi.....

Was that because it was broken ? They do sit quite far down the reliability surveys 😂🤣😂🤣

 

Just pulling your leg...  Good on Oodi.

[C8RKH]

Re the McLaren video above and this is on topic re the Future of Lotus.  McLaren have come out now as saying that they do not believe that battery tech (weight especially) is at a level right now that makes it viable for them so they have no current plans for a full electric supercar.  I think this is a brave move that should be commended.  Ferrari too, seem to be happy to stick with their V12 engines in particular (the fastest growing sector of their sales believe it or not) for now, and whilst playing with electric/hybrids they have no plans to move away from petrol whole scale. Porsche will do it because to be honest, apart from their GT3/4/RS cars they are really now just a mass producer of cars these days - to me when I look at the Macan, Cheyenne, Panamera etc I just see another German car in the likes of an A7/Q5/Q7/Toerag/Tiguan/Arteon etc. The interiors to me are not that far apart, they share much of the same switchgear etc.

And, did anyone see the bit in the McLaren video by Jayemm where we get the amazing discovery that some of the body is, err, well, how was it described, oh yes, err, "stuck on with double sided tape"!  OMG. WTF. Really! A £200k supercar is held together by sticky backed tape!  Really.....   WTF did not Lotus have the foresight and the daring to do this?  Imagine the weight Lotus would have saved. The ease at which we could have pulled the front and rear clams off of our Evora's. The money we would save on maintenance fees. I mean, a new clutch would be less than a grand. FFS, what were those muppets at Hethel thinking about when they did not take inspiration from their local carpet fitters and use sticky backed tape?  Jeez, talk about not having a clue.... 

So, this does raise the question of Lotus and where the future of Lotus truly resides. This got me seriously thinking about my next car, the car to replace my beautiful, perfect (well, to my eyes anyway) Evora 410 Sport. I was thinking about this a lot yesterday as the weather was shite and I was home alone as the missus was battling the high street for her last bit of xmas shopping (oh, that'll be another pair of socks for me from M&S). So, I had a wee little log on to Autotrader and was looking for instance at what I could buy instead of a new GT410 a car that the vast, vast majority of owners would not be tracking and would be either using as a weekend GT car / fun car or a daily driver.  Straight away, in the £80-£105k price segment I was blown away by the 2nd hand options.  Anyone fancy a less than 2 year old DB11 with less than 5k miles with a beautiful spec and a gobsmackingly well designed, individual interior (makes the Porsche look like Skoda interiors to be honest). A wonderful V12 engine, a great exhaust note, a classic badge?  It made me stop and think hang on, for the same cost to change as moving my 410Sport into a new GT410, I could be driving Aston's latest DB11 on their new all aluminium platform?  Yes, the car still weighs a lot. Yes, it will not give me the ultimate driving experience. But hey, it will still make me feel special and give me a real buzz as I drive it around.  Ultimately though, I had to discount it. I could not believe it. Just like the Lotus Evora it has no decent door pockets, no where near enough cup holders, so I came to the conclusion that it was, like the Evora crap, old, outdated, not fit for purpose. Shame, as like the Evora the rest of it was superb.

So, then I thought I know, what about the revamped and restyled Bentley GT - my god, the choice in the same £80-105k price range is immense. How about a GT convertible, 15 months old with 6k miles on the clock. Bloody beautiful car and one of the best interiors in the business, Mama mia I cried, that's it. That's just what I need. A 2 tonne leviathan with all the toys: radar cruise; lane change assist; auto gearbox; decent climate control; leather heated, cooled and massaging DFS sofa's and best of all not one, but two cupholders in the centre; a lovely big armrest and woop woop, door pockets!  Bloody hell - that's it. Gadzooks Batman. This car really is so obviously what many people on here think a Lotus should be as it has everything they bleat on about.  Then reality hit. Damn, sitting there in the middle of the dash in pride of place is a parts bin ICE system, straight out of an Audi/VW/Skoda. A Skoda for fooks sake!  Not even a Ford, but a bloody Skoda! The switch for the lights was I think out of a 2007 Passat and shared with just about every other VW car. Arrggghhh, how could they take a leaf out of Lotus's playbook and use bin parts?  Bastards I thought! The seat bases and the electronic buttons on them look pure VW/Audi parts bin too. I was crestfallen. Despite it winning so many rounds, as Lord Sugar would say, "you're fired" and away it went, towing it's little trolley bag into the distance.

So, here's with hope for the New Year that Lotus and the team at Hethel get their shit together. Get on quickly with getting the next sports car out there. It needs a V6 or V8 engine option, but it you want to add a couple of electric engines in too, to boost the power, than I can live with that.  A couple of cupholders and a door pocket as standard, along with a climate control system, an armrest, and the majority of people on here would be happy too. I'd prefer two seats, but if you must make it a plus two (really, really must you?) then make that a cost option and deliver the real car for the drivers with a nicely trimmed extra storage area.  My 410 Sport is 2 years old in April. Maybe, just maybe Lotus, if you can get your shit together, I can be one of the first into your next marvel (you could call it the Evenger! - see what I did there - pah, I should be in marketing!), the proud owner of a brand new Launch Edition +0, for April 21 when my Evora 410 will be 3 years old.  Here's hoping.

In the mean time, I wish every one on here and those marvellous people in Hethel a very Happy Christmas. A prosperous New Year. And remember, just like a puppy, a Porsche really is just for Christmas as they really are that s................

Ho ho ho......... (oh, and I mustn't forget the "bah humbug" for @Kimbers )  Luv and kisses all, even to VD9!  

 

[The Pits]

And what if it was 300bhp and auto only? Fine for MrsKevlarKid but what about the owner of a howling V6, 410 bhp, cornering masterclass thoroughbred?

You’ll be trading down mainly to get a Volvo sourced interior (which you already have). It will look amazing but the Sport 410 has road presence to spare already.

[C8RKH]

38 minutes ago, The Pits said:

And what if it was 300bhp and auto only? Fine for MrsKevlarKid but what about the owner of a howling V6, 410 bhp, cornering masterclass thoroughbred?

You’ll be trading down mainly to get a Volvo sourced interior (which you already have). It will look amazing but the Sport 410 has road presence to spare already.

Actually @The Pits you have unearthed my backup plan for IF Lotus disappoint!  I'm just trying to be as positive as I can be. However if they do disappoint then the 410 will either

a). Be traded in for a GT430 - I would prefer the GT430 sport but only know of one and that is recently sold - the silver GT430 at Silverstone is a possibly, just needs a bit more red lol......

b). Will be "upgraded" with the GT430 Ohlins and a KomoTec kit - either the 460 or 475

At that point I'll probably have the last of the great Lotus cars "for the drivers" and it will be a keeper

 

[The Pits]

OK maybe that was too easy! What if next year’s car was 390bhp V6, manual option and the the best looking 2 seater sports car you’ve ever seen?

[scotty435]

22 minutes ago, The Pits said:

OK maybe that was too easy! What if next year’s car was 390bhp V6, manual option and the the best looking 2 seater sports car you’ve ever seen?

Who is to know what next year’s car is going be, apart from one of the best design departments in the world down at Hethel, pure speculation here from people on here that don’t really have a clue what’s coming, could well be the best looking V6 2 seater sports car the best you have ever seen with 500+bhp manual and auto with a bit of help from Volvo’s parts bin, would that be a bad thing🤷‍♂️, sure some people would still be critical, pure speculation on my behalf just trying to be positive sometimes frown upon sadly in this thread.

[C8RKH]

It would need to be +0. It would need to be manual. It would need to weigh less than the current Evora, ideally under the current Exige. My wallet would open for that for sure.

I would not pay extra for radio, climate control, arm rest or door pcokets, nor cupholders.

I would pay extra for carbon bits, lighter exhaust, lighter wheels, carbon race seats, a chrono pack (more dials/gauges and digital read outs - not that I would have a bloody clue about what they all meant mind you) and parking sensors.

Job done. When did you say this was coming out?

[Akajak]

Sorry told it’s confidential so deleted

[The Pits]

Current Exige Cup 430 has nearly all of that plus 430bhp.

Very hard for an Evora chassis’d car to weigh less than an Exige, especially with all the modern de rigeur accoutrements.

My wish list car is actually very similar though, I’d love to see some radical lightweight and aero engineering and ideally a longitudinal mounted V6. But alas that is all considered wrong and ‘what nobody wants’ by people hired to transform Lotus into a volume car maker.

[The Pits]

1 hour ago, scotty435 said:

Who is to know what next year’s car is going be, apart from one of the best design departments in the world down at Hethel, pure speculation here from people on here that don’t really have a clue what’s coming, could well be the best looking V6 2 seater sports car the best you have ever seen with 500+bhp manual and auto with a bit of help from Volvo’s parts bin, would that be a bad thing🤷‍♂️, sure some people would still be critical, pure speculation on my behalf just trying to be positive sometimes frown upon sadly in this thread.

Some here know a lot more than you realise.
Let’s look at what we do know based on a Phil Popham‘s various pronouncements: next car is Evora based 2 seater, will be Russell Carr styled with cues taken from Evija, Cayman has been benchmarked, entry and egress has been mentioned a lot  so we know that the new car will be more accessible, more useable, more practical, more comfortable and refined (than an Exige), more modern more accommodating interior, so this is very likely to mean better visibility, more boot space and so on. We also know that Porsche sell a lot of auto Caymans so the next Lotus could well be auto only, for volume that’s a better choice than manual only. Choice of manual and auto is obviously everyone’s preference. Also notable by their absence is any mention of ambitious weight targets, laptimes, next level performance, game changing suspension design (eg active). So, quite a bit really.

[NedaSay]

I think the requirements' book for the next car, which was set by JMG, not Popham's crew, makes sense. A more daily drivable car makes sense. If the car has 300bhp+ as a base using the Volvo 4cyl and is offered with a choice of auto and manual, as  the first necessary for volume in some markets and the second is desired by the purists and a deal breaker if not present, the car should be ok.  Then again with a weight around 1150/1200kg nicely loaded, it would be a good base for more manic version at the top end down the road. We know the engine is quite potent as they have been able to eke out that thing to 500bhp+  so there's room there to get more power without reinventing the wheel... Looking at the Group gearbox provider it seems Aisin with the AW8G45 (auto) and BG6 (manual) is set to continue being the Lotus gearboxes of choice and they would have less problem to cope with the torque numbers since the turbocharger setup will bring them lower in the rev range. The Volvo loom and switch gear will be a welcome upgrade.

More importantly there would be room for weight loss and power hikes down the road. Because once again we are mimicking the Porsche playbook best attributes and hopefully only its best attributes.

[Ali tuck]

I also think lotus need to be careful of their cost of sale with the new models.As we are already into the 100k exige and Evora -and prices always go up ,not down they will need to be wary not to slip into even higher price markets competing with pork top end/McLarens etc.Not that the cars aren’t worthy,but for some reason don’t have the kudos of those......need to compete ,but at a realistic price point....especially trying to entice new owners.

[PAR]

With caymans and Alpine A110 starting at gbp 46 k (eur 50k ish) then it basically gives you the answer where you need it o start a 4 cylinder 2 seater sports car.

 

if you want to start higher, either you have a car fully loaded so it comes cheaper than the above with options or yoh make sure they are positioned above (so basically a faster more powerful engine). If it is a V6, this is immediately more expensive and potentially a smaller market plus not the easiest to fit with emission rules.

[NedaSay]

The new sportcar was benchmarked with Boxster/Cayman from inception. The price range hinted at way back when JMG was still in charge was 55k to 95k but that was then. A base price at 45k should be doable.

[scotty435]

On 22/12/2019 at 14:54, The Pits said:

Some here know a lot more than you realise.
Let’s look at what we do know based on a Phil Popham‘s various pronouncements: next car is Evora based 2 seater, will be Russell Carr styled with cues taken from Evija, Cayman has been benchmarked, entry and egress has been mentioned a lot  so we know that the new car will be more accessible, more useable, more practical, more comfortable and refined (than an Exige), more modern more accommodating interior, so this is very likely to mean better visibility, more boot space and so on. We also know that Porsche sell a lot of auto Caymans so the next Lotus could well be auto only, for volume that’s a better choice than manual only. Choice of manual and auto is obviously everyone’s preference. Also notable by their absence is any mention of ambitious weight targets, laptimes, next level performance, game changing suspension design (eg active). So, quite a bit really.

You know no more than me or any other true enthusiast of the brand, yes we all have read Phil Pophams various pronouncements any sensible person could not disagree with what he as said so far these issues need to be addressed, as for what he as not said auto only ? let’s not jump to conclusions and think the company will follow Porsche business model as bad as you think it is and yes they do make some truthfully amazing cars. You did say in one of your previous post that us diehards have been keeping the lights on at Hethel for some years now by buying against popular opinion especially in the last 5 years. Out of my lotus ownership in the last 15years 2 out of the 5 cars have been new sadly not 430s as in your case but still a big outlay on my behalf. Did I listen to public opinion after buying my first lotus a humble 135R no of course not that’s why I am still here and believing that the brand will keep on delivering what I and all us enthusiasts and hopefully lots of new customers to the brand want a true drivers car. Have I read anything yet that this is not going to happen is a firm no. 

[BfranklynV6]

For the new car I think they should just follow and improve on the exige formula: good power to weight, great handling (low centre of gravity and connected steering feel) and good looks. It’s easy. 

Power to weight: reduce chassis weight with some more composites.   Supercharged, aluminium block mid mounted V8 for 600bhp.

Handling: more of the same. (But nitrons/ohlins as standard on all models). LSD as standard. Aero as per cup 430.

looks: more of the same. Higher quality interior though.

 

[NedaSay]

25 minutes ago, BfranklynV6 said:

For the new car I think they should just follow and improve on the exige formula: good power to weight, great handling (low centre of gravity and connected steering feel) and good looks. It’s easy. 

Power to weight: reduce chassis weight with some more composites.   Supercharged, aluminium block mid mounted V8 for 600bhp.

Handling: more of the same. (But nitrons/ohlins as standard on all models). LSD as standard. Aero as per cup 430.

looks: more of the same. Higher quality interior though.

 

So you pretty much want lotus to produce an Esprit here... and to very likely to make them 210k +  when the current goal of the company is to bring an entry model. 

You also want to get a lower weight than the current car with a big lump of a V8... You sure you are not in the market for a Macca? Cause you just describe their 600LT.

[BfranklynV6]

A more rudimentary, analogue 600LT, for less than half the price.

Ok, if you don’t worry about a composite chassis, why would this have to be over £100k?

A GM LS2 V8 is about 30kg heavier than the V6 in the exige/evora. Not a game changing amount, but the noise and power to weight ratio, would be just that. 

I think it’s that raw, connected experience that Lotus drivers want. 

[NedaSay]

2 hours ago, BfranklynV6 said:

A more rudimentary, analogue 600LT, for less than half the price.

Ok, if you don’t worry about a composite chassis, why would this have to be over £100k?

A GM LS2 V8 is about 30kg heavier than the V6 in the exige/evora. Not a game changing amount, but the noise and power to weight ratio, would be just that. 

I think it’s that raw, connected experience that Lotus drivers want. 

And how is Lotus supposed to offset its CAFE emissions?  I know they will soon be able to offset theirs by having access to Volvo/Geely CAFE credits but not sure it's already the case. Also Geely purchasing Lotus wasn also a case of demonstrating their tech on the world stage. Okm they did not say it overtly but the fact that within weeks of the purchase a skunkwork team was assemble in Shanghai should leave very little doubt ... the chance of seing a GM in a Lotus car has come and gone... IMO. 

[C8RKH]

8 hours ago, NedaSay said:

the chance of seing a GM in a Lotus car has come and gone... IMO. 

Much more likely to be the Mercedes V8 with or without bi-turbos.

[Barrykearley]

11 hours ago, NedaSay said:

So you pretty much want lotus to produce an Esprit here...

Yes yes yes. If only Danny could have hung on for a few more months .....