Brexit

[pete]

2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

do sit and wonder why the working class are of such irrelevance to politicians

Difficult to define working class in this day and age

[Doug Ashley]

Brexit was not all about immigration, I can understand anyone who voted leave (I mean David bloody Cameron was the guy trying to sell the status quo) but the vote would have gone the other way without the media and certain politicians stoking up unfounded fears:  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brexit-prejudice-scientists-link-foreigners-immigrants-racism-xenophobia-leave-eu-a8078586.html

I think this country has a big problem with xenophobia and has to face up to it.  It's a minority, but a loud one.

13 hours ago, C8RKH said:

The point you don't seem to want to accept Doug, is that not all migrants want to come here and integrate into our society. To become productive. To add to our diversity and culture. We are seen by many as a "soft option" for an easy life where they can also come to try to subvert our way of life. Think they can ignore our societal or civil rules as they are above them.  Whilst this attitude might not be predominant, it certainly exists. And this is what many people rile against.

I'm not sure I see a link between the social changes you outline & migrants.  Laying the blame with 'the wrong kind of migrants' ignores how the 'native' population & society has changed.  The attitudes above are not exclusive to migrants, there are plenty of those born here who don't play by the rules and many let down by the system.  Also, if migrants struggle to integrate for whatever reason, their children won't, and will become Doctors, nurses etc.

- Local authority funding has been slashed, meaning urban areas have gone into decline.  Upkeep of public areas, lack of funding for local services, e.g. libraries, leisure facilities etc.  

- Technology has created a less personable generation.

- The upbringing of the new generation now in work has created a sizeable minority of UK born people unwilling to put in hard graft.  The message went from 'hard work pays' to 'you can be/do/have what you want'.

- The rise of the need for in-work benefits and food banks, due to 'trickle down' economics being a fallacy.

I don't know how you’re suggesting we can filter migrants by attitude, this seems a simplistic solution to the societal problems you describe which are caused by many factors. It's down to an individual level, and making assumptions about someone's intentions based on where they have come from cannot be the answer.

This issue gets far too much oxygen, so that the rich can point the finger at others while they continue getting away with murder.

 

Anyway, back to Brexit, funnily enough most of the reasons you state are the same kind of reasons for my thinking it's an absolute disaster.

- My rights & freedoms have been taken away.  It is now much harder to work or retire in 27 other countries, whereas I had the automatic right before (provided I could support myself, otherwise under EU law I could be returned home within 3 months.  A law we never decided to implement in the UK, notably).

- Milking the system for all its worth / unelected elite - if the EU are an unelected elite abusing the system (which I dispute, and even if it were true, we used to receive £10 back in economic benefit for every £1 spent on the EU budget), we have simply replaced them with unelected bureaucrats and the vote leave team.  They have taken over our government and do whatever the hell they want.  E.g. contracts for mates, political donations for a seat in the Lords, a Royal yacht in the pipeline.. 

- I work in an industry heavily regulated by the EU (until now), and have been involved in EU consultations and the implementation of new laws.  My experience is of a fair and transparent process, with consumer protection at the forefront of new lawmaking.  My company was expanding into Europe due to being aligned with the same rules, and now we are selling off our European operations.  I valued barrier free trade with our nearest neighbours, & the choice this offers.

We are facing a lost decade financially, so these Brexit benefits better start arriving soon....

[Bibs]

On 29/07/2021 at 22:59, Doug Ashley said:

- The government and many other nationalists love to paint the UK as the greatest country on earth & intrinsically 'better', and at the same time wonder why some migrants are attracted here.

Every political leader in the world says how great their country is, it's part of their job! Kim Jong-Il says North Korea is great but I don't see many people heading there  

 

[Doug Ashley]

True, it was a bit of an empty point that one.

Funny you mention North Korea though, that’s the direction we’re heading, apparently. State controlled media (or vice versa..), reneging on international agreements, deemed a danger to the world by scientists, noisy protests banned, flags everywhere, hard borders & so on…

[Barrykearley]

North Korea looks great  - clean streets - crime at zero - stabbings and disorder none.

 

shame about the total lack of food and personal choice though.

[basalte]

19 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

Given the last US president, it’s not unrealistic at all.

Ermmmm.... I can either just laugh which is maybe the whole point , or po-faced, point out that the guy`s a billionaire presenter of " The Apprentice" who publically stated that he started out with a million dollars . But my apologies if I was just meant to laugh 😀

[Chillidoggy]

If Trump can become president, and manage to stay in post for the duration, then the American ideology that 'anyone can be the president' must surely be true.

[C8RKH]

20 hours ago, Doug Ashley said:

I'm not sure I see a link between the social changes you outline & migrants.  Laying the blame with 'the wrong kind of migrants' ignores how the 'native' population & society has changed.  The attitudes above are not exclusive to migrants, there are plenty of those born here who don't play by the rules

This is why I was very careful with my words Doug so as to NOT tar all migrants with the same brush - what I said was "NOT ALL migrants want to come here and integrate into our society" and I think rather brutally I pointed out the behaviours of our citizens and what I thought about them. So I do think I was being balanced.

You are fortunate you worked in the "right" industry.  Through being members of the EU we have seen many industries decimated (in part by protectionism policies from the like of France, Germany and Spain that have preserved their industries in preference to ours - you could argue the issue was as usual, the UK adopted and played by the rules, those other governments as usual did largely what they wanted and stuck two fingers up at the rules, or at least at the spirit of them).  As yourself how it was that the Spanish, French and German (Iberdrola, Eon, RWE, EDF) were able to buy and takeover UK energy companies when companies like our own Centrica were "barred" from buying themselves in Spain, France and Germany?  After purchase, Iberdrola was sending "home" to spend over €1bn Euro's a year in "profits" from ScottishPower, to fuel jobs, investments and other stuff in Bilbao and the surrounding area.  The EU might have worked for some, but it certainly never was a level playing especially (and I guess we should callout the UK Government here for at best being niaive) for those countries who actually adopted the rules.  Let's take the fiasco over Brexit and VAT. What many people failed to realise was the whole shitstorm was caused by the UK complying with the EU's directives ON TIME, whilst her other member states decided to delay implementation by up to 12 months. The shit storm over the VAT on cross border payments, the crap about the huge amount of paperwork all being BECAUSE of BREXIT was just not true. And as for the Dutch and other companies who stopped sending stuff here, well, when they implement the rules themselves they'll realise it wasn't actually anything to do with Brexit as they will see this required for all countries NOT in the EU that they trade with. It was just convenient for all that it was labelled as a "Brexit" issue.

"Contracts for mates" - come on now Doug you're better than that, I know you are.  It's been going in governments of all countries, and all political persuasions and colours since, well, since we had Governments!  Before that, it was through Patronage from rulers whether Kings, Queens, Dictators or Tyrants. Do you honestly think this Government is any worse, or any better, than any other?  Get real bud. I do find it sad when people roll out this BS as a way to "attack" or make a point against their opponents as you know your side is just as bad.

Why are we facing a lost decade financially?  Last time I looked the indicators from the Government, BoE, IMF and other "independent" bodies were showing that the UK was on a better future growth strategy than the EU. So in your opinion, it is all doom and gloom (as it always is from everyone who did not want Brexit). My observation, for what it is worth, is that every month this year has seen unrest in one of the EU 27 member states. There are growing calls referendums in Poland, Hungary, France and the Netherlands, hinting that they too would like to vote.  And finally, if the EU really was a community that respected all its members, and wanted to help all members when in needs, how come they left Italy to die 15 months ago at the height of its Covid issues? Germany, Austria, France, all closed their trade borders for specific medical aid (PPE, Ventilators etc) to Italy. On the other hand, the UK filled planes and sent stuff!  What about Greece and Ireland in their hours of financial need? They were crucified by the EU for the financial woes, meanwhile, France who was in breach of her financial covenants was just ignored and allowed to get on with it with no sanctions or nothing.  The EU in my mind is doomed. So you may think we have a lost decade financially, I happen to think the EU is on the brink and without drastic (or draconian) action in the next 2 years the whole experiment will implode. At that point, I'd be very glad to be out of it.

 

3 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

 

If Trump can become president, and manage to stay in post for the duration, then the American ideology that 'anyone can be the president' must surely be true.

Anyone who was born in the US is it not?  I.e. not just a citizen of the US, but a citizen by birth.

[C8RKH]

21 hours ago, Doug Ashley said:

I think this country has a big problem with xenophobia and has to face up to it.  It's a minority, but a loud one.

If you think "we" have a problem with xenophobia in the UK, then look at the institutional racism in the US.

Hmmm, what about the EU and xenophobia?  France banning the right of women to "choose" to work the niqab/burqa?  In fact, i believe that Austria, France, Denmark, Belgium, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Spain all have either national, or local, bans on the wearing of the niqab/burqa which I believe includes in its term a "full face veil".  I'm surprised the Pope has not excommunicated the lot of them as what would be a catholic wedding without the bride wearing a full face veil? It seems that it's not such a minority issue there and must be a very loud one!

I can never see a situation where for instance, the UK would introduce such a xenophobic law.  It just goes against who were are.  So if you want to go and live and retire in a country in Europe that is so openly hostile to people from other countries and with other cultures then thankfully it seems that Brexit has done you a favour

Brexit was and will be for some time as devisive as a civil war. Just wait to see what happens up here where I live if the SNP have another referendum and the vote for independence is proven. The shit storm that will follow will make Brexit look like a quickie divorce for convenience and will shape what will be nigh on 2 to 300 years of hatred, bitterness and bile into the future based on what the Union delivered (although for around 90% of the union's timeframe the vast majority of Scots were very happy with it too and the benefits and wealth it brought as they enthusiastically joined the rest of Britain building an empire then plundering it).

[Barrykearley]

10 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

My observation, for what it is worth, is that every month this year has seen unrest in one of the EU 27 member states. There are growing calls referendums in Poland, Hungary, France and the Netherlands, hinting that they too would like to vote.  And finally, if the EU really was a community that respected all its members, and wanted to help all members when in needs, how come they left Italy to die 15 months ago at the height of its Covid issues? Germany, Austria, France, all closed their trade borders for specific medical aid (PPE, Ventilators etc) to Italy

Let’s face it - the EU is merely an extension of what Hitler tried to do in the unification  of Europe. Many would argue Hitler was influenced by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Coudenhove-Kalergi - probably considered inflammatory by many - but sit back and consider exactly what has occurred in Europe since 1945.

[mg4lotus]

Winston Churchill was a proponent of a United States of Europe.

[mg4lotus]

I skimmed through the Coudenhove-Kalergi article and I can't see how it ties in with your argument.

What exactly has occurred in Europe since 1945? Can you be a bit more specific?

I don't think the EU is what Hitler was trying to do with Europe.

Edited July 31, 2021 by mg4lotus

[scotty435]

Come on let’s not beat about the bush what benefits as the referendum actually brought us so far? Even Barry with his not surprising comments about comparing the Hitlers values to the present day some 80 years on sounds a act of desperation to win the agreement. If anyone could please explain the positives so far that the vote to leave the EU as brought us ? 

[Barrykearley]

It sure gave the UK the freedoms to develop a really good Covid vaccine. Then you could also consider our vaccine roll out. Something other EU countries have had their hands tied over - however many have broken rank with the EU on this since the commissions approach has been farcical.

sadly the huge swathes of job losses - massive unemployment - complete shortage of food - rocketing interest rates - hyper inflation etc that were all predicted by the remainers has indeed become a reality. I’ve no doubt covid was probably also a result of the Brexit vote 😳🙄

2 hours ago, mg4lotus said:

What exactly has occurred in Europe since 1945? Can you be a bit more specific?

If you have a read of Kalergis plan - then frankly I’m stunned if you cannot see the reality that has played out. 

[910Esprit]

There's a bit of irony about the vaccine rollout, as I recalll we were promised shortages of medicines too.    There is also an uptick in local manufacturing, which is good, presumably more will follow.  Its far too premature to view the benefits/disbenefits as its obviously a long term proposition thats still evolving and the long term prognosis for the EU itself is mixed.

[Neal H]

10 hours ago, scotty435 said:

If anyone could please explain the positives so far that the vote to leave the EU as brought us ? 

The benefits so far are that the economic chaos and catastrophe promised by the Remain supporting politicians and business leaders has not materialised. It appears that we can survive, prosper and decide our own future after all.

[basalte]

I told myself I wouldn`t get reeled in again by the political threads but I have to really, in the interest of a balanced debate if nothing else !  A perceived threat to "Freedom of Speech " continually hits the headlines in certain quarters so here`s some free speech which throws some more thoughts into the mix . The spoiler is "the EU has its faults but comparing its project to that of Hitler has no reasonable basis ".

As a starting point, I do believe that the referendum result should immediately have been respected by all parties. The "Peoples` Vote" 2nd ref campaign was only excellent at splitting the Labour vote, and if you examine where its  prime movers are now, they have vanished into thin air ! Blair protege Starmer (after all his 2nd ref bluster),  blithely voted the Tory deal through .

There is evidence that the PV campaign was promoted by the Blair/Mandelson faction to get rid of the existential threat to tax havens and avoidance that was Mr. Corbyn,  but I digress.   I do however believe that  the rejection of a Customs Union by Poundland Maggie May to keep her own rebels onside,  is a blunder that will return to haunt the UK. That narrative is sadly very far from over.

Winston Churchill in  his speech in Zurich in 1946 :

"There is a remedy which would in a few years make all Europe free and happy. It is to recreate the European family or as much of it as we can and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace in safety and in freedom . We must build a kind of United States of Europe".

For this purpose it is irrelevant to argue that Churchill did not seek to include the UK as "part" of Europe. He saw European cooperation as a guarantor of peace and he has been proven correct in that respect for 70 years whatever the other aspects of such union. It is the economic rise of Germany that seems to trouble many since. 

German chancellor 1969-1974  Willy Brandt-had to flee nazi Germany because he was a socialist. French President General De Gaulle , ( President for much of the 1950s and 60`s) : Fought nazi Germany tooth and nail. Both well known proponents of the EEC as it then was. All three differed in ideology but respectfully(as we certainly do on this forum) all pro-European. All three blatantly anti-Hitler . All three literally on Hitler`s death list.

Now, the riposte from the clearly Daily Express/Daily Telegraph -influenced sections of the forums will be that German economic  power has grown since then/the EU is somehow an ideologically different project . Even if that is taken as read (which I do not take as read , but for the sake of this argument let`s do so, as Germany is  Europe`s strongest economy, even with many more refugees and with many more trades union shopfloor reps on the Boards of its major corporations funnily enough like Corbyn wanted-but I digress again ! ),  any comparison of the ideologies of : Christian Democracy (De Gaulle and numerous German Chancellors including Merkel who grew up in Communist East Germany)  and Social Democracy (Brandt , Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan  )with the flat-out Fascist idea Hitler had of European "unity" through murdering people thought of as inferior, has no basis in fact. It`s like comparing ISIS with the Boy Scouts ! German dominance might equate to arrogance in the conference room and economic pressures  -but with no Stukas, Panzers, SS or Gestapo, it`s on a different level altogether. 

I do know for sure that many Europeans who actually lived under the Jackboot are offended and angered by such a comparison of the EU with Hitler.  Lastly, the example of Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis is instructive. He was and is, vehemently against the Euro .He had to directly confront the Germans regarding Greek indebtedness and lost his job because he was too angry to their very faces, too forthright against German dominance .

But even he is for a reformed EU !

[PaulCP]

Ah, if we are talking about a “reformed EU” then we are talking about something many have wanted for a long time, including I would imagine many in the UK who voted for brexit.

However, there are many of the unelected EU elite who are quite happy with their lot and herein lies the problem. How do you get those bureaucrats in the EU, who clearly have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, to consider reform?

 

[Barrykearley]

17 hours ago, scotty435 said:

If anyone could please explain the positives so far that the vote to leave the EU as brought us ? 

Proof that eventually democracy was respected. Shame on all those who tried to cheat it. 

[scotty435]

1 hour ago, basalte said:

I told myself I wouldn`t get reeled in again by the political threads but I have to really, in the interest of a balanced debate if nothing else !  A perceived threat to "Freedom of Speech " continually hits the headlines in certain quarters so here`s some free speech which throws some more thoughts into the mix . The spoiler is "the EU has its faults but comparing its project to that of Hitler has no reasonable basis ".

As a starting point, I do believe that the referendum result should immediately have been respected by all parties. The "Peoples` Vote" 2nd ref campaign was only excellent at splitting the Labour vote, and if you examine where its  prime movers are now, they have vanished into thin air ! Blair protege Starmer (after all his 2nd ref bluster),  blithely voted the Tory deal through .

There is evidence that the PV campaign was promoted by the Blair/Mandelson faction to get rid of the existential threat to tax havens and avoidance that was Mr. Corbyn,  but I digress.   I do however believe that  the rejection of a Customs Union by Poundland Maggie May to keep her own rebels onside,  is a blunder that will return to haunt the UK. That narrative is sadly very far from over.

Winston Churchill in  his speech in Zurich in 1946 :

"There is a remedy which would in a few years make all Europe free and happy. It is to recreate the European family or as much of it as we can and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace in safety and in freedom . We must build a kind of United States of Europe".

For this purpose it is irrelevant to argue that Churchill did not seek to include the UK as "part" of Europe. He saw European cooperation as a guarantor of peace and he has been proven correct in that respect for 70 years whatever the other aspects of such union. It is the economic rise of Germany that seems to trouble many since. 

German chancellor 1969-1974  Willy Brandt-had to flee nazi Germany because he was a socialist. French President General De Gaulle , ( President for much of the 1950s and 60`s) : Fought nazi Germany tooth and nail. Both well known proponents of the EEC as it then was. All three differed in ideology but respectfully(as we certainly do on this forum) all pro-European. All three blatantly anti-Hitler . All three literally on Hitler`s death list.

Now, the riposte from the clearly Daily Express/Daily Telegraph -influenced sections of the forums will be that German economic  power has grown since then/the EU is somehow an ideologically different project . Even if that is taken as read (which I do not take as read , but for the sake of this argument let`s do so, as Germany is  Europe`s strongest economy, even with many more refugees and with many more trades union shopfloor reps on the Boards of its major corporations funnily enough like Corbyn wanted-but I digress again ! ),  any comparison of the ideologies of : Christian Democracy (De Gaulle and numerous German Chancellors including Merkel who grew up in Communist East Germany)  and Social Democracy (Brandt , Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan  )with the flat-out Fascist idea Hitler had of European "unity" through murdering people thought of as inferior, has no basis in fact. It`s like comparing ISIS with the Boy Scouts ! German dominance might equate to arrogance in the conference room and economic pressures  -but with no Stukas, Panzers, SS or Gestapo, it`s on a different level altogether. 

I do know for sure that many Europeans who actually lived under the Jackboot are offended and angered by such a comparison of the EU with Hitler.  Lastly, the example of Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis is instructive. He was and is, vehemently against the Euro .He had to directly confront the Germans regarding Greek indebtedness and lost his job because he was too angry to their very faces, too forthright against German dominance .

But even he is for a reformed EU !

Thanks for your insight on this debate and I would be amazed if anyone could disagree with anything you have said. Perhaps it would be a good time for Barry to withdraw his comments and give his apologies to spreading fake news. It is desperate times when you have resort to bringing the Hitler regime into the agreement. Sad times and definitely not the way to forge a relationship with our European neighbours in this post Brexit times.

[Barrykearley]

My point remains - Hitler wanted a united Europe run by Germany. Frankly that’s exactly the position today.

[basalte]

Hitler ruled Europe by an open, fanatical and blatant doctrine of murdering anyone who disagreed with him.

My jewish grandfather (who was born here in 1898, fought in the 5th Glosters in WW1  and who lived in Hemel Hempstead ) was on his death list as well by the way. Partly why I feel strongly about the issue.

C`mon, would Hitler allow Brits to vote for the Brexit Party as fully paid members of the European Parliament, unfurling union jacks while some bemused students sang the Ode to Joy by noted French Revolution supporter, Beethoven  ? 🙂

Sorry Barry, regardless of Germany`s unquestionable economic influence you have adopted a political position here which cannot reasonably be sustained. 

[Barrykearley]

The way Hitler approached the unionisation of Europe, and failed, was beyond hideous undemocratic and in the manner of a dictatorship.

we have managed to break free of the EU just prior to it being too late. Politicians and appointed into the commission - in a completely undemocratic manner and the reforms the Pro EU glitterati are wishing to push through will remove any democratic right of individual countries - this is sleepwalking towards a dictatorship. It really won’t be long and the EU commission will ensure no one is allowed to leave like the naughty British did.

two sides to the coin are Hitlers fourth reich and the EU commission. Same coin though and the end result of a united Europe.

[C8RKH]

22 hours ago, scotty435 said:

Come on let’s not beat about the bush what benefits as the referendum actually brought us so far? Even Barry with his not surprising comments about comparing the Hitlers values to the present day some 80 years on sounds a act of desperation to win the agreement. If anyone could please explain the positives so far that the vote to leave the EU as brought us ? 

To be fair Scotty, it probably took some time for membership of the common market to really make a difference too. To be fair, if membership of the EU had been all about trade, and the common market was really the raison d'etre for the EU to exist, then the UK would never have left - Brexit would never have happened.  The UK has always been a trading group of nations. It's in our blood and it's in our DNA. Trade is good. Freedom of movement of people is good. However, increasingly for me and others, the issue has been about how what started out as a trading block, to benefit all, has morphed into something approaching the Federalisation of the members of the Union.  In the last 20 years, the UK has seen industries decimated. It has seen whole communities destroyed. In part (not wholly), this was down to EU policies and the self serving actions of certain EU states. How did that benefit us?  Did you ever ask yourself, at any time over the past 20 years, what benefit we were really getting from the EU as it moved from a collection of countries all working to together for the benefit of all, to an institution hell bent on the "control" and "domination" of the actions of all?

To really see the benefits, or the damage of Brexit, then I am afraid we are going to have to see how things play out over the next 5, 10, 15 maybe even 20 years.  Covid and the impact of the pandemic, and Brexit, both happening at the same time means that any short term effects may be skewed. So we need to see how it plays out. Of course, that means both sides need to wind-in the rhetoric. For what it is worth, whilst I can see similarities re Hilter's goals, I do not support the analogy nor the use of it. Again, they were exceptional times and the world has moved on. Thankfully.

[tim_marra]

Great post. Amen.