The Big Heat Pump Con

[eeyoreish]

And of course there's the associated problem with private rental property or the lack of it. Similar 'efficiency' demands are being placed on private landlords to improve the energy performance of their rentals alongside the many and ever increasing rights for tenants, all of which is forcing many landlords to sell up. Result; even less private rental property. I even saw one tenant on the news this week claiming it was unfair that she had been asked to move out because her landlord needed to sell the property and a suggestion from the reporter that such 'evictions' should be made illegal! Presumably tenants should be allowed to say if and when the property owner can sell his property? Madness...

I think some of the energy stuff for rentals might have been watered down in Rishi's latest speech but I haven't seen the detail. Hopefully someone has joined the dots and a bit of common sense has prevailed.

[C8RKH]

Agreed @Chillidoggy.

But then unlike many swathes of say Europe, the UK has a curious obsession with property ownership, driven partly by greed, as people obsess about the value of their homes.

In the 90's, noughties and most of the past decade, with low interest rates it drove house price inflation.

But, people didn't care as it allowed them to remortgage at a cheap rate, and "free up" cash tied up in their home, err, sorry, I mean investment or wealth creation vehicle. These house price rises allowed them to remortgage to get cash to go on cruises, buy flash new cars, motorhomes or boats, or generally live the high life.

Many of these people had "interest only" mortgages too and are now bitching they did not realise they would still need to pay of the capital (excuse, but how f@@king stupid are you?) and a re no trying to sue for wrongful selling (you couldn't make it up), and are complaining that their kids can't afford to buy as the house prices are too high. Well, it doesn't take a Sherlock Homes (sic) to work that one out does it?

So two key issues that people, not corporations, need to address. (1) Greed and (2) ownership obsession.

The key issue for Governments and Local Authorities is a policy around building to (1) drive a seismic increase in the amount of "affordable" or social housing for rent and buy that is being built and (2) to prioritise and make much easier the use of brownfield sites to discourage greenfield building.

Again, I do think I'm on another planet as none of these "policies" seem anything other than common sense. So either I'm smoking dope or our national and local politicians and policy makers are just dumb and dumber.

[Spinney]

3 hours ago, eeyoreish said:

And of course there's the associated problem with private rental property or the lack of it. Similar 'efficiency' demands are being placed on private landlords to improve the energy performance of their rentals alongside the many and ever increasing rights for tenants, all of which is forcing many landlords to sell up. Result; even less private rental property. I even saw one tenant on the news this week claiming it was unfair that she had been asked to move out because her landlord needed to sell the property and a suggestion from the reporter that such 'evictions' should be made illegal! Presumably tenants should be allowed to say if and when the property owner can sell his property? Madness...

I think some of the energy stuff for rentals might have been watered down in Rishi's latest speech but I haven't seen the detail. Hopefully someone has joined the dots and a bit of common sense has prevailed.

I owned a few ‘buy to let’ properties until this time last year and what you’ve said there is precisely the reason I chose to get out of that market. The increasingly onerous landlord legislation, falling property prices and stroppy tenant risk was simply making the whole thing unviable as an investment. 

All my properties were well maintained and in a good state of decoration but, sadly, it was obvious to me that fewer tenants showed very much respect for other peoples property. I eventually decided it just isn’t a risk I’m prepared to take any longer and I know quite a few other landlords who arrived at the same conclusion, hence why they are getting out of the market too.

[Chillidoggy]

My wife rented her mum’s house out when she went into a home. Both tenants were a nightmare, cost her a lot of money, and so she sold it to be rid of the hassle.

[pete]

@C8RKHwhere do you get your dope, asking for the wife.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66900999 this might answer a few questions

[drdoom]

Gave this all a quick read and am inclined to reiterate my stand regarding sound governance being of paramount importance as we go forward. The stench of corruption throughout our systems lately hangs palpably whenever viewing the news, latest in our most substantial province, Ontario, where 3 Cabinet Ministers have resigned over their government's sweetheart handover of Greenbelt public land for a song to developer pals. Like it or not that capitalism has become dysfunctional is as plain as the nose on one's face, the predictable outcome of decades under neo-conservative dogma where market forces are presumed to be fundamentally wholesome. Quite some blind spot when it comes to human nature.

Lately caught up with an old chum who'd been persuaded by our gas utility's subsidy for install of a heat pump and she is utterly on side with the critcs here in this thread. Lots of money spent on it yet about useless when temperatures are at all chilly.  

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, pete said:

where do you get your dope, asking for the wife.

I was born with a life times supply of "dope" inside me.

[Kimbers]

We bought a 1 year old house (not this one) that was still covered by the NHBC. Within a year of moving in we couldn't understand why your feet got cold in Winter especially upstairs. So we got my builder mate in and he pulled up the carpet. The floor had sunk so much that you could fit your fingers in the gap between the floor and the skirting board. 

Putting a camera in there he could see there was absolutely no cavity wall insulation and basically the cold air was just blowing into the house. 

At the same time the Mastic that held the bathroom laminate came away and it was all that was covering the massive gap in that skirting board as well.

The roof insulation was half the depth of the required building regs, they had used any old discontinued bathroom sets so nothing matched, One green, one beige and the flooring hadn't been sealed against the loos, bath, shower and sinks so eventually water got under it and it all lifted. My builder realised the ceiling water marks were all because they hadn't fitted any breather bricks or vents in the roof and the condensation was soaking everything.

Then the copper piping was condemned as it was only half the width of the requirement for a hot water system. The only issue was we only found out when the hot water from the tank backed up due to the narrow pipes and escaped into the plastic cold water tank in the roof, melting it and collapsing the ceiling onto my sons bed. If he had been in it he may not have been here now as the water was boiling.

We put a claim in on the NHBC system and they claimed the floor had subsided because of carpet work we had done, the bathrooms were acceptable....well I suppose they worked.... and "insulation was to standard and you must have removed some". As for the cavity wall insulation, tough titty.

I sued them for all the work and they offered just before the court case, 50% of the cost of the work. I refused and they went to 75% which I also refused. Won the case and they had to pay all my lawyer fees and do the repairs. Only the guy they employed to do it was "Very busy and may not make it for a few months". Lawyer issued another legal notice and they agreed to pay my builder. 

Shocking and made me say I would never buy another new build, especially from Hovis. 

[C8RKH]

Only serves to remind me that NHBC is in the hands of the builders, or, so it would seem. Atrocious way to act based on your feedback.

[Chillidoggy]

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

We bought a 1 year old house (not this one) that was still covered by the NHBC. Within a year of moving in we couldn't understand why your feet got cold in Winter especially upstairs. So we got my builder mate in and he pulled up the carpet. The floor had sunk so much that you could fit your fingers in the gap between the floor and the skirting board. 

Putting a camera in there he could see there was absolutely no cavity wall insulation and basically the cold air was just blowing into the house. 

At the same time the Mastic that held the bathroom laminate came away and it was all that was covering the massive gap in that skirting board as well.

The roof insulation was half the depth of the required building regs, they had used any old discontinued bathroom sets so nothing matched, One green, one beige and the flooring hadn't been sealed against the loos, bath, shower and sinks so eventually water got under it and it all lifted. My builder realised the ceiling water marks were all because they hadn't fitted any breather bricks or vents in the roof and the condensation was soaking everything.

Then the copper piping was condemned as it was only half the width of the requirement for a hot water system. The only issue was we only found out when the hot water from the tank backed up due to the narrow pipes and escaped into the plastic cold water tank in the roof, melting it and collapsing the ceiling onto my sons bed. If he had been in it he may not have been here now as the water was boiling.

We put a claim in on the NHBC system and they claimed the floor had subsided because of carpet work we had done, the bathrooms were acceptable....well I suppose they worked.... and "insulation was to standard and you must have removed some". As for the cavity wall insulation, tough titty.

I sued them for all the work and they offered just before the court case, 50% of the cost of the work. I refused and they went to 75% which I also refused. Won the case and they had to pay all my lawyer fees and do the repairs. Only the guy they employed to do it was "Very busy and may not make it for a few months". Lawyer issued another legal notice and they agreed to pay m

Shocking and made me say I would never buy another new build, especially from Hovis. 

 

Switch to Warburtons?

 

[pete]

BBC News - Will hotter heat pumps win over homeowners?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67511954. At last they seem to have realized there is a problem with heat pumps and this may be the answer

[C8RKH]

On 25/09/2023 at 14:33, Chillidoggy said:

Shocking and made me say I would never buy another new build, especially from Hovis.

Let's hope their bread is better made.

[Nick Sticks]

1 hour ago, pete said:

BBC News - Will hotter heat pumps win over homeowners?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67511954. At last they seem to have realized there is a problem with heat pumps and this may be the answer

Interesting article though I still need a lot more convincing.
I'm also concerned about the physical size of these things and where you have to locate them and the resulting pipework that looks a pig.

@pete Your above link needs the full stop removed to work 😀

[ChrisJ]

Quote

Around 72,000 heat pumps were installed in the UK last year - a far cry from the 600,000 per year target set by the government.

Sounds very much like the EV targets - unrealistic.

 

[andydclements]

For me, the challenge with a heat pump is not the size, place for pipes etc, it's the fundamental that the property is 1950s build, which were (by modern standards) intrinsically poor for insulation, and that means that any time when the boiler is currently running almost constantly, the heat pump would probably struggle unless we up-size the rads, even if the heat pump was to deliver over 60deg because the oil fired boiler is delivering well over that yet on constantly to keep the temp up in the rads.

The only hope for me, is to dramatically alter the thermal efficiency of the house, which means dealing with Finlock (a concrete block that spans the cavity), deal with a solid concrete floor, improve wall insulation (which will be difficult unless I go External/ Internal insulation as opposed to cavity), then it would seem heat pumps would be an option, but equally doing all that would dramatically cut the oil consumption anyway.

[Chillidoggy]

2 minutes ago, andydclements said:

For me, the challenge with a heat pump is not the size, place for pipes etc, it's the fundamental that the property is 1950s build, which were (by modern standards) intrinsically poor for insulation, and that means that any time when the boiler is currently running almost constantly, the heat pump would probably struggle unless we up-size the rads, even if the heat pump was to deliver over 60deg because the oil fired boiler is delivering well over that yet on constantly to keep the temp up in the rads.

The only hope for me, is to dramatically alter the thermal efficiency of the house, which means dealing with Finlock (a concrete block that spans the cavity), deal with a solid concrete floor, improve wall insulation (which will be difficult unless I go External/ Internal insulation as opposed to cavity), then it would seem heat pumps would be an option, but equally doing all that would dramatically cut the oil consumption anyway.

 

A neighbour has just installed a heat pump in a new build, it looks like a massive commercial air-con unit outside. Ugly as sin, and the fans are noisy. I'm sticking with my gas central heating because I know it works, is reasonably cheap to run, and a new gas boiler is way cheaper to buy or replace.

What I am going to investigate are the new smart thermostat systems that can control the temperature of every radiator in the house. This seems to me to be a more efficient way of doing things, although there is a cost, and a complexity involved.

[ChrisJ]

2 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

What I am going to investigate are the new smart thermostat systems that can control the temperature of every radiator in the house. This seems to me to be a more efficient way of doing things, although there is a cost, and a complexity involved.

I haven't yet gone down that route. I replaced our boiler last year and it is now a "Hive" controlled one.

I put (hid) the single controller (with the temperature sensor) in the living/dining room, so the radiators in the whole house are controlled by that. Three time periods 12-3 (16 degrees), 3-6 (17 degrees), 6-9pm (18 degrees). Seems to come on for 20-30 mins at each of the start times. Gas bill has been hugely reduced, so I'm not sure I'll go the individual radiator route.

 

[C8RKH]

Even the military is not convinced.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1850646/military-barracks-boilers-heat-pumps

[pete]

Which is why these new ones are being developed, now they can run at temperatures equal to gas or oil boilers they should be more competitive. However it's the insulation factor that is the secret to the success of any heating system plus a proper ventilation system. We have the necessary building regulations for it but lack the labour and supervision to implement them

[oneshot]

I've just taken our Hive system out (don't like cloud based systems) and replaced it with a z-wave controller that I can set from my computer. Allows me to set a different temperature for every minute of the day if I so choose (which I don't!)

[Kimbers]

It's very similar to the EV car situation. Forcing/wanting people to be green before the technology is actually good enough to do the same as it is replacing.

It's all knee jerk reactions to an issue that could be fixed by other means. I see so much waste that generates Co2 in every walk of life that CAN be tackled immediately but the will isn't there because the likes of Just Stop oil and Green activists don't understand their own issues.

Govt subsidised Solar Panels and building solar into building regulations would be a great start in helping heat the house or at least water. Not to mention that it would help households with their cost of living. BUT it's far too expensive to fit for most people and it takes too long to even get your money back.

I would especially love to see them getting rid of disposable fashion, whether that be clothing, shoes or even Mobile Phones. The Fashion industry alone creates more Co2 than the Plane and Shipping industries combined. I find it laughable that many young people who are so into "Saving the planet" get a new phone every time one comes out or "Can't go out on an evening in the same dress more than a couple of times".

Getting back to Heat Pumps There is so much more we would do in the mean time such as more efficient systems replacing old boilers etc. Don't get me started on insulation. 

 

[Chillidoggy]

16 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

I haven't yet gone down that route. I replaced our boiler last year and it is now a "Hive" controlled one.

I put (hid) the single controller (with the temperature sensor) in the living/dining room, so the radiators in the whole house are controlled by that. Three time periods 12-3 (16 degrees), 3-6 (17 degrees), 6-9pm (18 degrees). Seems to come on for 20-30 mins at each of the start times. Gas bill has been hugely reduced, so I'm not sure I'll go the individual radiator route.

 

 

I'm hoping to reduce my gas bill, and also be able to control individual rooms. The house is probably as well insulated as it can get, it has three heating circuits and hot water, and I could probably benefit from TRV's all round, but I also want to be able to switch heating and hot water on/off remotely. I haven't done any in-depth research as yet, but I am currently wondering whether the motorised valves have to be retained, and if so, presumably they are controlled from a smart timer. It's balancing cost with functionality, the smart rad valves sets aren't cheap!

[ChrisJ]

The cost is one of the reasons why I've left all the TRVs as non smart. Hive allows the heating to be switched on/off remotely,

I have just one of these (£150) with a Hub & control unit (came with the new boiler), and my gas usage/bill , in 2022 was 58%/99% of 2021, and in 2023 was 64%/119% of 2022. Hate to think what the bill would have been if we hadn't changed over.

Smart TRVs are £50 each. No idea how they work together with the temp controller though - maybe put the temp controller in the coldest room to heat up, with smart TRVs on the radiators in the "warmer" rooms.

As a combi boiler, hot water is on demand - no no need for remote control.

I have a single Hive Smart Plug - but I have found that there are cheaper/better alternatives out there - TP-Link Tapo Smart Plugs - just means another bloody App,

[Chillidoggy]

Thanks Chris. I think that via the smart control app, you can tell an individual radiator whether you want it on, and how hot you want it. Unless there’s a circuit for each rad, which is highly unlikely, it’s probably the ultimate in heating control at the present time.

Whether it’s worth the cost is TBC!

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, Kimbers said:

I would especially love to see them getting rid of disposable fashion, whether that be clothing, shoes or even Mobile Phones. The Fashion industry alone creates more Co2 than the Plane and Shipping industries combined. I find it laughable that many young people who are so into "Saving the planet" get a new phone every time one comes out or "Can't go out on an evening in the same dress more than a couple of times".

HMRC clamping down on people selling stuff on platforms like ebay, vintage, etc is only going to max this worse. People will stop selling / recycling their old stuff as they get fed up being taxed on what they make from "THEIR" second hand goods.

It is yet another (albeit small) instance where Government has completely fooked up and mis-read the situation, thereby actively disincentivizing the behaviours we want.

I often wonder just how far out of touch with reality our Politicians and Government are. It's bonkers.