Is electric really the answer?

[DarrylV8]

Yes but that is why we bought our Eletre; because we could, wanted too and because ITS a Lotus 

[eUKenGB]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

You're spot on @Escape but the problem is your views will have you labelled as "Filip the Heretic" as you refuse to worship at the EV pulpit.

I have said this so many times - "replacing 30m ICE vehicles (the majority still with years, decades even, of useful life left in them, early, with 30m EV's is NOT, and has never been, an environmentally sound or reasoned argument".

The sheer volume of NEW resources that will need to be mined, extracted, refined, and processed, and the huge amount of energy needed to do that, just for the cars, is staggering. As is the impact of this on the environment. All of this is totally discounted, or brushed aside, as NOT being relevant by the EV fan boys, whilst at the same time, they pronounce that Hydrogen, for example, will never work and is a non starter due to the energy required to extract it.  @eUKenGB this is ONE prime example of the one sided bullshit from the EV sector. Hydrogen extracted using excess wind energy is a super low carbon footprint.

Now, add in the amount of infrastructure that needs to be provided to support those 30m EV's.  A few million Chargepoints. 45m Charging cables (tethered and in car). A couple of million cubic meters of concrete. Cabling to local transformers. New transformers. Underground and overground electricity grid upgrades. Etc etc.  

Then we have to deal with the batteries once they are kaput in the car. Despite the BS spouted on here 4 years ago, the technology and recycling facilities are nowhere near, still, capable of dealing with the volume of batteries that will be discarded.

When you add ALL of this NEW stuff together, the environmental impact and cost, just in the UK, is absolutely huge. It's mega. The issue is that most of this stuff is NOT being counted in the net zero target calculations.

Yes, of course, dirty ICE needed all of that new infrastructure too. But that has been built over 70 years with most of the environmental impact from the infrastructure now being "sunk" and no longer "impacting".  Retiring or dismantling this infrastructure, way before the end of it's useful life, just adds more to the environmental impact. So it reduces are ability to really hit Net Zero.

So in effect, what we are "trading", is the emissions produced by ICE now, against the full scale replacement of the infrastructure and vehicles with electric. There is now way that this will deliver a Net Zero result in the next 50 years. Unless of course, we continue to "fiddle" the calculations to make them fit and produce the answer we desire.

We do need change. But that change should be coming by reducing the number of vehicles on the road. Reducing the number of vehicle miles travelled. By avoiding having to build 30m BEV's, and the associated infrastructure required, AND, taking ICE vehicles off the road, I would argue that we would reach a true Net Zero result faster.

But this will require significant investment in public transport, and improvement to the roads environment in our towns and cities, to encourage more walking, cycling, and use of said public transport.

We are so far away from a sensible approach that it hurts.

Meanwhile, people are shelling out £100k plus on Glory Wagons that weigh well in excess of 2.5 tons, with a huge manufacturing footprint and hugely inefficient "range", because it gives them prestige. It has absolutely fook all to do with the environment - it is bragging rights and the ability to offset tax through salary sacrifice. Let's stop kidding ourselves and be honest.

@C8RKH, you're treading on thin ice with your own brand of BullShit there. I didn't do my degree in chemistry to have no idea WTF I'm talking about. Sadly, many others clearly do have no idea.

Let's get something straight here. I do NOT spread BS. I have only ever stated what are the facts. I also have opinions, as does everyone else, but I do NOT confuse the two. I cannot say the same about the many EV detractors.

I am also not an ICE hater. I currently have about 50 ICE vehicles. Can you say the same or are you just trying to stir up controversy.

Hydrogen is a terrible idea. Period. Yes it can be made to work, but it's not a good idea. However you produce the Hydrogen, it's a very energy inefficient way to move people around the planet.

That is physics and not any sort of BS, but claiming the opposite is exactly that.

In any case, why are people so obsessed with the idea of using Hydrogen. What are the supposed advantages that make it so desirable. I've yet to hear any Hydrogen zealot actually produce any valid reason why it's such a great idea. They're simply in love with the idea without understanding the whys and the why nots. So when they spout stuff about how great Hydrogen is, that is most definitely pure BS.

As for "Zero emissions", it all depends on where you measure them and the full phrase is "zero emissions at the point of use" which is true for EVs and the many detractors who like to drop that last bit in order to pretend it is being claimed otherwise are simply spreading their own form of BS.

Forcing everyone to get rid of their ICE and buy new EVs would not be a good idea, I agree. However, that's not exactly what is happening. Anyone who wants to keep their existing car can do so, but people will buy new cars anyway and the actual pressure is to get an EV when you do instead of yet another ICE. Overall, that shift IS good for the planet or do you insist on ignoring the massive impact the oil and gas industry have due to exploration, mining, extraction and refining their product - using cobalt to do so. Factors always ignored by the anti EV brigade when comparing the impact of EV vs ICE manufacture and lifetime usage.

"There's not enough Lithium" is the oft heard cry of the anti EV mob (or plain ignorant). Except for 2 things. Firstly, there is (it's not rare) and secondly, batteries at their end-of-life contain all the Lithium (and other materials) they started with and so can be re-cycled. The elements do NOT get changed in chemistry. Only nuclear reactions do that and we're not at that stage of vehicular propulsion yet. So as more batteries are recycled at end-of-life, the less mining of new raw materials is required. How does that compare with burning oil in an ICE? Oh, that's right, burn it in the car and it's gone - forever (since several billion years is essentially the same thing).

"EVs are burning death traps" is another. The media has created this frenzy when the FACTS are that in the US (no reason for other markets to differ greatly) an ICE vehicle is 61 times MORE likely to catch on fire than an EV. Those are the statistics based on the REAL figures of their National Fire Protection Agency. So who's bullshitting who about fire risks.

Finally, what really pisses me off is that there are plenty of places I can go to read anti EV BS, but it is NOT appropriate here on this part of the forum. Lotus are making EVs and will soon be EV only. Get used to it or go and peddle your anti EV rhetoric somewhere else. Me, I've had enough of it, especially when you pointedly accuse me of something I have not done.

This thread and others about the new breed of Lotus is about EVs. If you hate them so much, go somewhere else and leave the rest of us alone.

Is that clear enough and BS free.

[C8RKH]

45 minutes ago, DarrylV8 said:

Yes but that is why we bought our Eletre; because we could, wanted too and because ITS a Lotus 

And by my definition above I have no problem with that and laud your decision.

41 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

Let's get something straight here. I do NOT spread BS.

I never said "YOU" do. I said the EV industry and the "fan boys" do. I was not making a personal attack, but you seem to have taken it personally. I was merely continuing our earlier discussions where you had stated that you did not see this sort of stuff coming from the EV sector, and so provided an example. That was the ONLY reason I mentioned you in that specific bit, to address something you had previously raised. So no attack intended, nor indeed actually made.

Hmmm....

41 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

Finally, what really pisses me off is that there are plenty of places I can go to read anti EV BS, but it is NOT appropriate here on this part of the forum

I totally disagree and what pisses me off is on a forum topic entitled "Is electric really the answer" it seems we are only allowed to say "Yes" and agree according to some. That's a great way to censor debate.

[Kimbers]

Lets get this Straight here before there's any issues here.

C8RKH knows his stuff from real life and from his work. I run a fleet of cars and vans into 5 figures so I know maybe better than many the ins and outs of BEV's. In fact for many years I was on the Govt think tank and HMRC think tanks on taxing, Co2 and other motor industry factors. Unlike your Chemistry degree mine is in Automotive Management directly related to this industry so please don't think we are ignorant like you are implying.

EV's are not and will never be clean. Even the biggest manufacturer of EV's will tell you that. Their production is, if anything worse for the environment than ICE cars. the running of them is cleaner until disposal when it is again worse for the environment than ICE cars. EV's are also 100% guaranteed to NOT be a permanent fix. They are a temporary sticky plaster and again, anyone in the industry knows that is also 100% true because its been said by every maker of EV's. On the inside we are already seeing a shift away from current electric systems within the manufacturers. Yes some may be different electric systems but many are looking at Fuel cell technology and Solid State.

In the real world (and my little section of the industry is worth tens of billions a year) most of our fleets are currently disposing of their EV's as unusable in real world applications, especially the commercials. 

I would also like to point out as a Moderator that this thread is called "Are EV's the answer". It designed to bring together the sceptics and pro EV people in debate.  So for you to say "it is NOT appropriate here on this part of the forum. Lotus are making EVs and will soon be EV only. Get used to it or go and peddle your anti EV rhetoric somewhere else" is absolutely NOT what we do here. We encourage civil debate and discussion. This is 100% the place to discuss it.

And to just mention just because we are the past (or present if you include the very real Lotus Emira) doesn't mean our opinions aren't valid because we are the people who have owned Lotus's for 20 plus years and potential clients in the future. I have had an Esprit, Excel, Exige and an Evora, there are many Lotus buyers who want Lotus to continue production of ICE cars well into 2030 like many other manufacturers will do. Yes many with PHEV or Hybrid systems but the demand is there and many manufacturers are seeing that. 

Lastly, please keep it civil, everyone. 

 

 

[Escape]

@eUKenGB, such a long post warrants reply. A few points, without quoting everything:

- Hydrogen is definitely a viable alternative. It may not be as energy-efficient as using batteries, but it is far more efficient in certain other ways. Especially in sectors were payload and/or range are important. 

- Zero Emissions is a lie. Not even local, as there will be emissions from tyres and brakes, proven to be more important for EVs due to their weight and driving characteristics. And certainly not in use, as the current electricity mix is heavily dependent on fossil power plants. Usually gas, but often coal as well! So 'rolling coal' is actually more appropriate for EVs (in certain regions) than for the vilified diesel ICE. Even if you have sufficient wind and solar or other alternative energy production, you still need something reliable and constant to guarantee power supply. Some studies even found an increase in emissions, due to rising demand for electricity and the inability of renewables to keep up. Because we failed to invest in research and production of nuclear power, that means more gas power plants need to be constructed and operated. Worldwide demand for coal has also increased, all to generate electricity. So unless you are completely off the grid, with your own wind/solar/whatever AND storage, you can not claim to be zero emissions in use. And that's not taking into account total lifecycle emissions.

- Yes, current legislation is forcing people to switch to EVs, often long before their ICE car has reached end of life. LEZ for one, but also taxation strongly favoring EVs and making ICEs de facto unusable for a business. If EVs are really so great as we are led to believe, market forces should be able to cater for their growth, without pouring vast amounts of taxpayers money into a forced shift.

- There may be more fire incidents with ICEs (I have not read the study in sufficient detail to know whether it accounts for factors like average age, intensity of use etc to know if the results are valid or skewed), but the effects are typically much smaller. You can get a fire by being careless with brake cleaner, fuel or oil, but often it will die out without intervention or is easily controlled with a small fire extinguisher. But when an EV catches fire, it is likely to take the entire parking lot (or ship!) with it. Fire crews everywhere have voiced their concerns about not being properly equipped to deal with large scale electric fires. Especially now that the foam they have been relying on for decades is found to cause severe pollution after use and they need to look for alternatives.

- I think EVs can be part of the solution, in certain use cases. Just not in the way they re pushed right now. I have an EV forklift myself, as it's much nicer for indoor use. But it has also proven very clearly it would not be an answer to my mobility needs and wants.

Finally, I second my fellow moderator, there is room for all opinions on TLF and discussion is encouraged as long as it stays civil. But (and this is not aimed at you personally), just like in the woke debate, those of us who cling to the old ways and values often find their freedom of speech seems to be far less important than that of the other side. We are usually accused of not listening to arguments, while our own voices are drowned out. This easily leads to frustrations, and that is also part of daily life as well as in our little world here.

Filip

[exeterjeep]

Most JLR dealer are having to give up Jaguars so that the new £100k EV models will only be sold by a handful of dealers - hope they keep some of the other service agents for when this happens with their next range of electric cars.

May be just a few to be recalled again but...

if a 2019 Jaguar I-Pace is charged over 85%, smoke or fire may erupt from the high-voltage battery, which could result in injuries and property damage if the car is parked indoors

The fix is still under development, and until Jaguar comes up with a permanent solution, it advises customers to only charge their EVs to a maximum of 75% SoC and to only park outside and away from buildings.

https://insideevs.com/news/713804/2019-jaguar-i-pace-battery-fire-risk-recall/?fbclid=IwAR3GSk8__6c9NQsCVDDuyWilDfyiH4_-oT2bZMBn87oeJqaxtOsJYpbrAPM_aem_AWoHLOD9v5ffGQ6eCwxn8p43gQJCiNR1yzCf1o6796761zwxyZr2NI6v_O2UYbmupMK8TMxTVO92iLWzIwyY9vTk

 

 

[C8RKH]

Stop fueling the fire @exeterjeep as you'll cause some heart attacks at worse, or burst blood vessels at best 

 

https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2024/03/asda-electric-vehicle/

That article (above) concerns Asda deactivating over two-thirds of its charging points, going from 165 at the start of 2023 to only 46 now.

The issue, behind the scenes, seems to be the partnership with BP Pulse, and this is not the first time I have heard of customers being disgruntled with BP Pulse's service.

Until we sort out the infrastructure, EV's are going to have this roller coaster ride. For the many, who are middle class and have an EV through salary sacrifice and their company, this is not an issue, as they will benefit from home charging (as being middle class they will have a suitable, accessible, location for a home charge point). However, for those who don't, or do a high mileage and need to use public charging stations, this is another huge blow. Not only does it take away some super convenient supermarket car park capacity, but it will lead to higher unit costs for charging through reduced competition, IF, this trend to deactivate continues.

That coupled with reports that almost a quarter of EV charging points installed to date do not work, is extremely worrying, as rightly or wrongly, it adds to consumer anxiety around range. 

The good news is that my company is working on launching the UK's first, nationwide, support and maintenance service for EV chargepoints covering commercial operators of chargepoints from 7kw single guns to over 350kw DC charge points with multiple guns. 24x7 condition monitoring. Fault diagnosis and repair. Firmware and hardware upgrades (e.g. increase capacity, addition of contactless payment modules etc). Electrical safety testing. Cyber and physical security protection etc (apologies for the flagrant free publicity advert!).

On a brighter note, it seems that Ford are getting their act together and understand that mass adoption needs attractive range plus purchase pricing. This looks good and if it is really £40k for a 374 mile range then even I would be tempted as it means I could do one of my regular one way journeys, of 296 miles, without need to recharge or worry about the range. Not aware of anything else currently, at a sensible price, that would do that.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-explorer-price-range-power-revealed

[exeterjeep]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Stop fueling the fire @exeterjeep as you'll cause some heart attacks at worse, or burst blood vessels at best 

 

glad to be of help.

[Kimbers]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

 

The good news is that my company is working on launching the UK's first, nationwide, support and maintenance service for EV chargepoints covering commercial operators of chargepoints from 7kw single guns to over 350kw DC charge points with multiple guns. 24x7 condition monitoring. Fault diagnosis and repair. Firmware and hardware upgrades (e.g. increase capacity, addition of contactless payment modules etc). Electrical safety testing. Cyber and physical security protection etc (apologies for the flagrant free publicity advert!).

You work in the EV industry?   Do you mean you actually know what you are talking about? Surely not!

[C8RKH]

25 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

Do you mean you actually know what you are talking about? Surely not!

Nope.

"I know nothing". But we are affiliated, and approved, by over 40 chargepoint OEMs and we've installed oodles and oodles of them. It's a good job the people I work with know stuff otherwise we'd be fecked...

I on the other hand, just sit and spout bullshit allday. But then you guys knew that already hahahaha.

 

[JimmytheTurbo]

I think the sooner car manufacturers realise all those who have bought in to electric have their car and get back to ICE cars the better.

The net zero BS was pushed by China as a way to get its cars into Europe and America as nobody would buy a Chinese ICE car.

In other new...oh dear how sad.

 

[C8RKH]

It would seem that despite the best efforts from climate activists, government, and manufacturers, consumers are increasingly turning their backs on EV's. Hence the fact that EVs dominate the list if used car models that have fallen in value the most in the last 12 months:

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-13209483/EVs-used-car-price-fall-value.html

If you own an EV this is depressing news and continues (accelerates even) the trend of the past 18 months. However, if you're looking to take the plunge and get into a late model EV then of course it is great news. I cannot believe the price drop in the Kia EV6 - it's an astoundingly great EV, but its most recent one year decline is a staggering £14,300, or 30.5%.  That's enough to really tempt to go and look to replace my wife's 3 year old Karoq with one. The EV6 would be a better car in every aspect (apart from range of course) and veritable bargain.

As I've said before, the primary buyers of EVs are company car directors, company owners, and salary sacrifice company car drivers. They are not as price sensitive as normal consumers as the considerable costs of the EVs are significantly offset by the huge tax savings. However, as these cars filter onto the "normal consumer" second hand market the demand it would seem just does not exist. Why?

 

[Sparky]

For me: range anxiety, hassle of recharging downroute, battery longevity.  All adds up to a low-convenience vehicle that, in a few years, will depreciate so much that it will just need throwing away - much earlier than would an ICE.  Anyhow, that's what they really want, as they care less about the environment than profits.  As things currently stand, they will have to drag me kicking and screaming into an EV.

[Bibs]

@Sparky but what if it was made from Lego?

[Chillidoggy]

I’ll  never buy an EV for precisely the same reasons.

Has anyone else noticed the plethora or EV ads on telly? Almost without exception, they portray a bunch of smiling, laughing, happy-go-lucky, carefree occupants (who look like they spend half their lives in a gym, and eat quinoa), driving around in the middle of nowhere.

This is presumably an attempt to persuade all us doubters that it’ll all be fine and dandy, and charging points are of course numerous in the wild blue yonder, so no worries, drive your EV anywhere. Utter nonsense.

I also noticed that in the vast majority of the adverts, they show the EV being either being plugged in, or having the charging plug removed. Why do that? Beats me.

[C8RKH]

27 minutes ago, Bibs said:

@Sparky but what if it was made from Lego?

That's brutal!

17 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

(who look like they spend half their lives in a gym, and eat quinoa)

You forgot the smashed avocado on sourdough.

[Sparky]

2 hours ago, Bibs said:

@Sparky but what if it was made from Lego?

Curse you, Lex Luthor!

[DarrylV8]

@C8RKH oh well I have to put my hand up I do sometimes have avocado & chilli on sourdough toast for breakfast on our cruises. Apart from occasionally walking through the gym I don’t visit too much like hard work……..

[JimmytheTurbo]

So ASDA are removing charging points from their stores.

Just by my work they fitted the Esso with a big charging bay last year in approx. October. Its still not connected up so that must be costing them quite a bit.

I did see this chap on youtube saying a forecourt would have to be mad as 90% of charging is done at home and is mostly un planned or longer distance charging that is done in charging stations. 

I wonder if people with home chargers could subscribe to an app that lets other people use their kit at a mutually beneficial price? Could solve a lot of problems...maybe cause a few too mind.

[pete]

[Chillidoggy]

18 hours ago, C8RKH said:

That's brutal!

You forgot the smashed avocado on sourdough.

How times change. Not that long ago everyone would assume sourdough was mouldy bread, and avocado was simply the colour of a bathroom suite.

[Escape]

19 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

I also noticed that in the vast majority of the adverts, they show the EV being either being plugged in, or having the charging plug removed. Why do that? Beats me.

To make us see it as a normal part of driving/owning a car? If it's shown often enough, it will become the norm and presumably there will be less resistance to change to EV?

On top of the reasons already stated, the main reason I don't like EVs is because they take away what little control you still have in a modern car, because everything is automated and computer controlled, you're basically just in it for the ride, interacting with nothing but a touchscreen. I just don't see how that can lead to any driving pleasure. And yes, even when queuing in traffic I prefer to be in something special or classic, even if it's harder work and costs me more. I loved driving my Esprit to work in Brussels and look forward to doing so again.

[exeterjeep]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-66866327

Which says,     (had not heard the second point before....)

"Our preferred approach is to let them burn themselves out," says Mr Maher.  

Electric cars are also known to reignite "up to two or three weeks after the initial fire", says Mr Maher, meaning they have to be "quarantined" away from other vehicles even after the fire appears to have been put out.

 

[pete]

BBC News - Buckingham Gate: Rickshaw destroyed in fire near palace

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68700768

An electric rickshaw, which exploded!! 

[pete]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/YKpy3t9sA3WWJMZd/