What made you 'Shake your Head' today?

[r3nault]

5 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

You're splitting hairs re racism and nationalism

It’s splitting hairs to you, but not to me. Because even if you felt you didn’t belong in England, you’d still know you belonged in Scotland. If I don’t belong in Australia, where do I belong? So the difference matters to someone like me.
 

5 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

any form for of radical nationalist - they think they are better, different, superior even.

On this we can agree.

[TAR]

5 hours ago, C8RKH said:

All I see are people. Human beings.

35 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Suck it up!  Ignore it. Move on with your life. People can be shits, prejudiced, and just down right nasty.

That implies you maybe don't understand your position of power being white.

Racial bias is largely unconscious, which is why whites often become defensive when anyone suggests we may have it. However, we can’t change what we refuse to see, and our lack of understanding of implicit bias leads to racism.

I'm not suggesting that you're racist, but maybe be not seeing your position of privilege.

[C8RKH]

@TAR - I was brought up on a council estate in Liverpool, then near to Liverpool, when my parents had to move to find work. I was comprehensively educated and did not go to University, whether an "elitist" one or a dressed up Poly. My background is very much working class. I was brought up with people with backgrounds from all over the world, and with skin colour both similar, and very different to my own. But none of that mattered, nor does it matter, to me.  If you think that upbringing gave me some sort of "position of privilege" then that's fine, it's your perception or view only. It didn't, and has not, given me any advantage or privilege other than being brought up in a loving home, by parents and grandparents who worked hard to provide. Similar to so many people in the UK whether their parents, grandparents or other family descended from these shores are migrated here to build a better life for themselves and their children.

I do not suggest that racial bias is largely unconscious, but if you think it only applies to "whites", and whites can only be unconsciously biased, then you really do need to get out and travel more!

I am not, and have not been defensive in my posts. Where the fook do you get that from?  I have responded directly to a post that said that white people in the UK, US, or Aus could not be on the receiving end of racism which quite frankly is, I will use my term again, utter bollocks. You are saying that I am not seeing racism due to my "position of privilege" which seems to suggest that you also agree that racism is not something that affects whites. And this is the rub for me. It is OK for a section of society to be offended by racism, but it seems it is not Ok for another, even if they perceive it has happened to them. Wow. Just wow. I wonder who it really is who is seeing things through the eyes of privilege.

 

[Kimbers]

We are all just one big community here. There are so many people of so many different racial and ethnic groups here. All united by our love of cars and one brand in particular. The colour of your skin or ethnic background really does hold no interest to me and I would think the same of most people here. For example myself and James have had discussions here and I didn't know what ethnic group he comes from. I really don't care. 

I have lived round the world and came across Racism in Malaysia where I was confronted in the street and threatened violence. Once with a machete. All because I was white and I was mixing with people my age, both male and female. They were putting me in my place, especially when I started dating a Malay girl. I was left in no doubt that my life was forfeit if I continued the relationship.

It has still never affected my open nature and belief that we are all the same. We all love, we all hate, we all suffer loss and have happiness in our lives. We all love that little Yellow and Green roundall with ACBC on it and we all know the feeling driving a car with it gives us.

There should never be a situation where someone abuses someone for their ethnicity but sadly there are stupid people and bad people out there. There isn't here because we don't allow it. So an open discussion should be just that. Please don't make it personal from either side. 

Thanks.

[Sparky]

[r3nault]

There’s lots of things at play, and to understand them means having an open mind and navigating the nuance. My parents long ago gave up learning anything new, now any ignorant opinions they hold are stuck to them like dogma. Here, the Australian human rights council defines racism with reference to power:

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/race-discrimination/what-racism

“Racism is the process by which systems and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities and outcomes for people based on race. Racism is more than just prejudice in thought or action. It occurs when this prejudice – whether individual or institutional – is accompanied by the power to discriminate against, oppress or limit the rights of others.”

There is also the binary construct of racist/non-racist equates to bad/good person. Thus if an act is racist, the person committing it is racist and they are a bad person. This binary is not true. Racism (like sexism or any form of discrimination) can be ignorantly committed by good people, whose intentions are innocent. Only if intent to cause harm is present would I say there is a bad person (like a neo-Nazi), but to make progress we need people to be willing to have a dialogue about the issues.

@C8RKH, I have a question for you. I played cricket for many years, and one of my club mates used a racial slur against an opponent in a match. The umpire reported him, and he was given a lengthy suspension. If you imagine being his club mate or team mate, what are your thoughts on this incident?

[TAR]

8 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I was brought up on a council estate in Liverpool, then near to Liverpool, when my parents had to move to find work. I was comprehensively educated and did not go to University, whether an "elitist" one or a dressed up Poly. My background is very much working class. I was brought up with people with backgrounds from all over the world, and with skin colour both similar, and very different to my own. But none of that mattered, nor does it matter, to me.  If you think that upbringing gave me some sort of "position of privilege" then that's fine, it's your perception or view only. It didn't, and has not, given me any advantage or privilege other than being brought up in a loving home, by parents and grandparents who worked hard to provide. Similar to so many people in the UK whether their parents, grandparents or other family descended from these shores are migrated here to build a better life for themselves and their children.

@C8RKH I wasn't suggesting that you alone have privilege, either by your upbringing or your status. All white people have privilege just because they are white. 

8 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I do not suggest that racial bias is largely unconscious, but if you think it only applies to "whites", and whites can only be unconsciously biased, then you really do need to get out and travel more!

I am not, and have not been defensive in my posts. Where the fook do you get that from?  I have responded directly to a post that said that white people in the UK, US, or Aus could not be on the receiving end of racism which quite frankly is, I will use my term again, utter bollocks.

I was generalising about white people, not specifically you (my bad writing skills). We don't have a lived history of racism or racial bias, so it can be difficult to frame others offence by their lived experience.

8 hours ago, C8RKH said:

You are saying that I am not seeing racism due to my "position of privilege" which seems to suggest that you also agree that racism is not something that affects whites.

It's very easy for a white person to see racism against a white person, real or perceived, because it goes against their lived experience. 

8 hours ago, C8RKH said:

And this is the rub for me. It is OK for a section of society to be offended by racism, but it seems it is not Ok for another, even if they perceive it has happened to them. Wow. Just wow. I wonder who it really is who is seeing things through the eyes of privilege.

I don't think I suggested that?

The following is a general statement not aimed at anyone specifically.

Understanding and accepting that whites have privilege help us to understand why things like a gollywogs doll, and the name it is known by, are racially offensive. A white person is perfectly able to call this out for what it is.

 

This is a really complex subject and one I probably can't do justice to.  

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, r3nault said:

@C8RKH, I have a question for you. I played cricket for many years, and one of my club mates used a racial slur against an opponent in a match. The umpire reported him, and he was given a lengthy suspension. If you imagine being his club mate or team mate, what are your thoughts on this incident?

Personally, I'd have pulled him  to one side, either on the pitch, or in  the dressing room and made it very clear, in words of one syllable that he was a c@@t, he was well out of order, and he needed to have a long look in the mirror.  Not much more I could do, but hope that the club took the appropriate action and he was thrown out. Sending him on an "awareness" training course would be wrong, because he was aware, he was wrong, and he should have known better as a human being.

 

 

 

[r3nault]

@TAR I think Andy was referring to my post, not yours, which I will get to later (if I remember!). From my perspective, I’m appreciative of people such as yourself who are aware and listening. No one is perfect, least of all me, and we shouldn’t give up on good in the pursuit of perfect!

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Personally, I'd have pulled him  to one side, either on the pitch, or in  the dressing room and made it very clear, in words of one syllable that he was a c@@t, he was well out of order, and he needed to have a long look in the mirror.  Not much more I could do, but hope that the club took the appropriate action and he was thrown out. Sending him on an "awareness" training course would be wrong, because he was aware, he was wrong, and he should have known better as a human being.

 

 

 

An interesting response! Not a wrong one at all - I would probably try to be more conciliatory, though I don’t want to be drawn on differences in approach as that is actually tangential. But what you said perfectly illustrates my point: never once did you have to consider what the club mate’s action meant for you. You considered (rightly) the justice of it, but it didn’t “racialise” you personally. When it happened, I was forced to confront whether I thought his attitude was different towards me because of the colour of my skin, whether any of our dealings in the past had been coloured by discrimination. I’m not saying he was or did, just that I was forced to consider it as a person of colour.

Now, I would love to be as “colourless” and “colourblind” as to be able to say that colour simply doesn’t matter, but that is a privilege you have that I do not (in our respective countries): the ability to NOT be racialised. I can pretend it’s not there, but by word or deed, I will be reminded of my “coloured-ness” or “other-ness” every day. That’s not to suggest there is any malice or ill intention behind it either, mostly it is innocent. But that is the point: everyday, well intentioned people will cause divide and harm through ignorance. If I thought you were malicious, I wouldn’t be wasting my time on this discussion! Remember my earlier question? At least one in four people I meet will ask this sequence of questions: where are you from? Australia. No, where are you REALLY from? The underlying tone here is that it’s simply not believable I could be “from Australia” because of the colour of my skin. I was born here, where else can I be from??? Now, I do understand there is curiosity, not malice behind the question, but the WAY it is asked matters. The sequence of questions I’ve outlined here has the impact of telling me I don’t belong. I am the “other”.

So, what would be the “right” way to ask? Well, instead of asking where I’m “really” from, a person could ask what my “cultural heritage” is. Then we’d be at a point where the curiosity has a healthy dialogue, rather than diminishing my “belonging” in my home country.

Again, you said earlier to move past it, and I do, EVERY SINGLE DAY. You truly do not understanding how tiring and wearing it is not only to answer these questions, but to constantly deal with the eroding effect on my belonging.

This is my personal experience of what is known as “casual racism”. I’m deliberately staying away from any more “controversial” topics (like systemic racism etc) because that can be a topic for another day. But I hope anyone who has read this far might start to have an understanding of how race identity usually (not ALWAYS, but usually) impacts people of colour in our countries, but not yourselves if you are “Anglo”. It’s one simple example of privilege which is invisible to you, but visible to those who don’t have it.

Edited May 9, 2023 by r3nault
Clarification and grammar

[Bibs]

https://www.iflscience.com/the-biggest-mistake-in-the-history-of-science-39535?

[KennyN]

Lotus Customer Care....I'll be charitable and put it down to incompetence rather than a desire to lie to customers, but they really should rethink the name of that department.  My car hasn't turned a wheel since 3rd March, it appears that the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing at Lotus Cars.  I've wasted too many hours trying to get a clear picture of what is going on and I'm still not convinced that they've actually done anything.

Caveat emptor!

[andydclements]

Evri (that used to be Hermes), delivery firm. They are/' were due to deliver a phone cable today, it gives 2x 3.5mm sockets from a USB-C connection, so not massive. The parcel has been delayed for this reason:

Out for delivery

 

Update on your parcel

17:52 - Fri May 12

This parcel is bigger than we expected, so a specialist Evri courier will need to deliver it. We're sorting this now and we'll update your tracking as soon as it's on its way

[Escape]

They probably assumed the entire parcel was only 2x3.5mm 😄

[andydclements]

I'm partially expecting to see a hamster turn up on a trike to deliver it, moaning my parcel is too big.

[ramjet]

Stuart Little in his red roadster. 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Just booked Aer Lingus return flights from Birmingham to Dublin for an overnight work trip in 6 weeks time. Depart 12.20h, return 11.50h next day. Then came to book the BHX car park. Booking so far in advance, it shouldn’t be too much, I thought. Err, no. Cheapest possible fare in the furthest car park (5) is £80. Anything closer is £94/£95! For about 26/27 hours parking!

[C8RKH]

On 12/05/2023 at 18:48, andydclements said:

Evri (that used to be Hermes), delivery firm. They are/' were due to deliver a phone cable today, it gives 2x 3.5mm sockets from a USB-C connection, so not massive. The parcel has been delayed for this reason:

Out for delivery

 

Update on your parcel

17:52 - Fri May 12

This parcel is bigger than we expected, so a specialist Evri courier will need to deliver it. We're sorting this now and we'll update your tracking as soon as it's on its way

So, did this big parcel arrive?

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Booking so far in advance, it shouldn’t be too much, I thought

Airports in the UK are royally taking the piss re parking charges, drop off charges etc. It's about time the Competition Authority stepped in and sanctioned the greedy little pigs. It's now beyond outrageous.

[Rambo]

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Just booked Aer Lingus return flights from Birmingham to Dublin for an overnight work trip in 6 weeks time. Depart 12.20h, return 11.50h next day. Then came to book the BHX car park. Booking so far in advance, it shouldn’t be too much, I thought. Err, no. Cheapest possible fare in the furthest car park (5) is £80. Anything closer is £94/£95! For about 26/27 hours parking!

Well, at least your employers will pick up the extortionate bill 🤔

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

To put this into perspective, I will be away Monday to Friday next week using BA from Heathrow. The official long stay car park fee for these 5 days is £79.10. Our summer holiday from Gatwick is £127 for 15 days at the official long stay car park.

[Rambo]

£104 for 15 days at Newcastle airport. Undef £7 a day in long stay.

[Escape]

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Airports in the UK are royally taking the piss re parking charges, drop off charges etc. It's about time the Competition Authority stepped in and sanctioned the greedy little pigs. It's now beyond outrageous.

You're right it's pure greed, but I'd say it's unlikely the authorities will do anything about it, because it's targeting cars and we all know those are fair game for whatever charges anyone can come up with...

[ramjet]

So I just watched the news and saw the execs of AI development firms asking the politicians to govern what they can and can't do as they are really scared of what AI may do. I think his words were 'existential threat to mankind'.

Here's a thought. Stop developing it if it is not going to be a benefit to humanity.

Trouble with that is that they would only be shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

Here comes Skynet.

Based on their stance on gun control, I can't see them taking anything to do with computers seriously. Now if it was along the same lines as abortion, they'd be all over it like white on rice.

I wonder if the robots that we have seen on YT are actually programmed to do certain moves along the path it takes. i.e. jumps etc, or whether it is just told go from point A to point B anyway it would like? (I had to go back through that and replace 'you' with 'it'. Uh Oh.)

[andydclements]

On 16/05/2023 at 18:17, C8RKH said:

So, did this big parcel arrive?

It arrived but the delivery person didn't ring the doorbell or anything as it simply was posted through the letterbox as for any small letter sized parcel, so I didn't see Stuart Little / Lemiwinks the delivery creature who found it too large.

[C8RKH]

According to the news, a inmale Aussie Police Officer, no doubt fully armed, stab vested up, with backup etc decided that the best approach to tackle a dangerous, 95 year old woman with dementia, with a walking frame, and armed with a steak knife in her care home room, was to taze her in he chest, taze her in her back. Unsurprisingly, said extremely dangerous old lady fell. Cracked her skull, has a brain bleed and is not expected to survive.

Meanwhile, extremely brave cop is back on the beat and Australians can sleep safe again.

What the absolute f..k!

Sat in Gatwick this morning waiting for a flight back to Scotland.

£8.50 for a brioche roll with some over cooked bacon. Jeez...

However, what made me shake my head more was watching so called adults (20-35) struggle to use a bloody knife and fork. It was unreal.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

On Wednesday afternoon I took my eldest son for his second ever attempt at driving a car at a disused car park a couple of miles away. On the access road heading down to the car park, there was a geezer stood next to his badly modified BMW 3 series coupe, accompanied by three teenage gangsta boys on their mountain bikes, all wearing heavy black coats with hoods and scarves pulled up covering their faces, on what was quite a warm afternoon.

I am pretty sure he was dealing out the drugs for the kids to pedal/peddle direct to other kids as they walked home from school at 3pm. There was literally no other reason for them to be there. Broad daylight and not even really trying to hide what they’re up to. How do these guys continue to get away with it? It’s just a small insignificant rural town, not some inner city ‘Hood.