Why does Lotus suffer from reliability jibes

[Bibs]

I thought that range of Rovers was named after the target demographic of the car! 

[Advantage]

"Range" is Latin for handsome, smart and irresistibly attractive.  

[C8RKH]

"Range" is Latin for handsome, smart and irresistibly attractive.  

Doesn't sound anything like the Chav's that drive them then!  

[Mark Blanchard]

If Rover had called their next model the Cleethorpes people would have been rolling around in the streets. 

 

Rover had much posher names than Cleethorpes, don't you remember some of these?

 

Rover Metro Kensington

Rover Metro Knightsbridge

Austin A99 Westminster

Mini Mayfair

Austin A70 Hampshire

Austin A40 Dorset / Somerset

Morris Oxford

Austin A40 Cambridge

[Neil Potter]

Maybe there's something in the 1970s British association, people look at an Esprit SE and see the door handles from the Allegro, however unfairly.

Also, a broken down Lotus is a much more memorable sight than a broken down Golf.

[DaveyT]

But not quite as memorable as an F40 stopped in the outside lane of the Windsor relief road..

In Ascot week

[mr50bmg]

... Ferrari had and have maintained the glamour associated with successful Grand Prix racing along side the aspirational and alwaysexpensive, very well styled road cars, they have managed to continue to develop the "brand value" which has over-ridden the issues of fragility and temperamentality.

Hello Nigel. You bring up an important point. Over the years I've attended and taken my Esprit to many exotic car shows and, while observing the usual Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, etc., one thought occurred to me: only enthusiasts buy Lotus. Sure, enthusiasts buy other marques as well, but one never really knows if that Ferrari or Porsche owner bought the car for its perceived investment value, for the badge and status, or whether he's an enthusiast. With Lotus, it's a fair bet he's an enthusiast that knows a bit about cars and driving.

Also, we both share Cayman S ownership (mine's 2008). I was looking for another mid-engine car and felt I wasn't ready for an F355. When I heard the seductive sound of the Cayman's engine behind my head, I was sold. Yet, some things on the car are total crap and I've written to Porsche about them. 90% of all be electronic stuff in the cabin should be thrown out (thus saving weight). Don't know if this is true on yours, but having the battery inside an electrically controlled bonnet is stupid. If your battery is low enough (and three weeks non-driving can do that), you won't be able to start the car and you won't be able to pop the bonnet. Not only that, you won't be able to withdraw your key from the ignition. Diabolical! You'll need to recharge through the fuse box or lighter. In true fashion, what the Germans should have provided to pop the bonnet open is an explosive bolt mechanism.

... and the cheap plastic caps for the oil and the coolant tank that are stiff and nearly impossible to twist back on? Those are an embarrassment I wouldn't have expected to see on a Trabant.

Fun car to drive, though.

When this thread first started, I thought it was about the older Lotuses - I didn't realize Andy has an Evora. Well, in my experience here, all of the newer cars - Elise, Exige, Evora - have been very well received. On our many shows or road trips, I've never heard my fellow club members being asked by others about reliability. I think the general attitude is that the Elise/Exige embody the true spirit of what a Lotus is and it is a car Chapman would have loved. So, here at least, I think reliability questions are a relic of the past.

[Tony K]

I have to second the part about the Elise/Exige/Evora being well-received here in the States.  Two parts to this:  1) When people ask about reliability and the answer is "it has a Toyota motor", it's the end of that discussion (regardless of how much else of the car's quality is Lotus' own doing, people associate reliability most with the engine);  2)  As with Ferrari's brand image overpowering the cars' shortcomings and issues, the Elise/Exige are so strongly and positively recognized as being exceptional handling, pure driver's car, best steering ever, great track day car, last hand-built sports car, pure sports car, etc. etc. etc., that all of those positive connotations of the car fill the narrative, leaving talk of quality/reliability behind.

[C8RKH]

Well mr50bmg and Tony your last 2 posts are very heartening and refreshing and I'm glad that "over the pond" the perception of Lotus, especially with the newer cars, is so good. Let us hope that with the Evora 400 going there this perception continues and the build quality, design and driver experience does nothing but enhance this further.  

 

I think it is slightly different in the UK, less so amongst real driving / car enthusiasts who realise the Lotus' strengths is in the driving and who are well aware of the Toyota underpinnings. I disagree somewhat with Neil re the mention of the Allegro door handles on the Esprit. To be honest the average person in the street would not make that distinction and maybe that is an ideal example of the self deprecation that owners have around the brand - do we too often apologise for what we perceive are shortcomings when in fact the part does exactly what it needs to do and at a price point that makes the Lotus affordable for many of us?

 

Yes, I have an Evora. I love it!  Like the Allegro door handle analogy, do I notice that the indicator stalks are from Ford. Or that the electric  mirrors switch is from a 1990's Ford Fiesta / Mondeo or whatever (even though I did notice that same part is on the new Evora 400!). No. The honest answer is, absolutely not. What I do notice is the feel of the leather gear knob in my hand (the more I use it the more I realise what a perfect shape it is for my hand). The thinness by modern standards of the steering wheel (and it's size - it is quite big) and how when pressing on hard it just feels so right. I love the satisfying mechanical "clunk" of the gearchange - to be honest, I find the gear change really really engaging and so different from any other car I have driven - I really feel like I am a key part, a component (a high quality component of course ) of a sweetly operating machine - really engaging.  

 

The bulk of the comments I have received are from people who profess to love cars, but I suspect what that translates to is they like the feeling that driving a top line Audi gives them and believe that other people view them more positively as a result of their choice of car.  It's a bit like the halo effect that made so many people in the 1980's buy a BMW 1.6/1.8 four door saloon as it "said something about them" when parked on the drive - they were aspirational as they chose BMW over a Ford Mondeo.  In fact, this halo effect was so successful that for over a decade now BMW has sold way more saloons that Ford has sold Mondeo's when arguably, for the 'normal' owners and drivers out there the Mondeo was the better car (reliability, space and packaging, equipment etc).

 

It is interesting reading the different views and experiences of drivers and owners. To be honest, rather than put me off, the thought of finding, owning and loving an Esprit (especially an original Turbo or a V8) has been heightened to the point that I actually find myself looking through the specialist classifieds!  Finding a well loved one that has been 'sorted' seems to be the ideal route into classic car ownership, and of course, there is very little of a similar age that drives and corners as good as these cars.  Hmmmm, a 1967 Lotus Elan dhc anyone?  As old as me but in better nick and more vavavoom. Sounds like bliss.

 

So, after a small but wonderful relationship with Lotus through my Scarlett, I now find myself hooked on the driving experience and lusting after an affair with a sultry blond (seen a lovely original white Esprit Turbo with a shocking but gorgeous red leather interior) and a fire cracker of a dark and brooding black haired beauty in the shape of an Esprit V8 in black with a magnolia interior.  

 

What's more worrying is that my eye is also roving over to their grandma's - an Elan (dhc or +2) or a JPS Europa anyone!

I guess I've well and truly fallen in love with the Lotus driving experience, and I know need to accept I am, like many of the cars, getting on a bit!   

[DaveyT]

Maybe they have to be of a certain age, or know you have an Esprit, but 8/10 of the average people I chat with about the car mention either the "marina door flaps" or the " Vauxhall slant 4". All mention the acronym, obviously, though few have ever onwed one.

Urban myths perpetuated...

As above, hopefully the new gen cars wil garner a better rep for the entire brand

[DaveC72]

Well mr50bmg and Tony your last 2 posts are very heartening and refreshing and I'm glad that "over the pond" the perception of Lotus, especially with the newer cars, is so good. Let us hope that with the Evora 400 going there this perception continues and the build quality, design and driver experience does nothing but enhance this further.  

 

I think it is slightly different in the UK, less so amongst real driving / car enthusiasts who realise the Lotus' strengths is in the driving and who are well aware of the Toyota underpinnings. I disagree somewhat with Neil re the mention of the Allegro door handles on the Esprit. To be honest the average person in the street would not make that distinction and maybe that is an ideal example of the self deprecation that owners have around the brand - do we too often apologise for what we perceive are shortcomings when in fact the part does exactly what it needs to do and at a price point that makes the Lotus affordable for many of us?

 

Yes, I have an Evora. I love it!  Like the Allegro door handle analogy, do I notice that the indicator stalks are from Ford. Or that the electric  mirrors switch is from a 1990's Ford Fiesta / Mondeo or whatever (even though I did notice that same part is on the new Evora 400!). No. The honest answer is, absolutely not. What I do notice is the feel of the leather gear knob in my hand (the more I use it the more I realise what a perfect shape it is for my hand). The thinness by modern standards of the steering wheel (and it's size - it is quite big) and how when pressing on hard it just feels so right. I love the satisfying mechanical "clunk" of the gearchange - to be honest, I find the gear change really really engaging and so different from any other car I have driven - I really feel like I am a key part, a component (a high quality component of course ) of a sweetly operating machine - really engaging.  

 

The bulk of the comments I have received are from people who profess to love cars, but I suspect what that translates to is they like the feeling that driving a top line Audi gives them and believe that other people view them more positively as a result of their choice of car.  It's a bit like the halo effect that made so many people in the 1980's buy a BMW 1.6/1.8 four door saloon as it "said something about them" when parked on the drive - they were aspirational as they chose BMW over a Ford Mondeo.  In fact, this halo effect was so successful that for over a decade now BMW has sold way more saloons that Ford has sold Mondeo's when arguably, for the 'normal' owners and drivers out there the Mondeo was the better car (reliability, space and packaging, equipment etc).

 

It is interesting reading the different views and experiences of drivers and owners. To be honest, rather than put me off, the thought of finding, owning and loving an Esprit (especially an original Turbo or a V8) has been heightened to the point that I actually find myself looking through the specialist classifieds!  Finding a well loved one that has been 'sorted' seems to be the ideal route into classic car ownership, and of course, there is very little of a similar age that drives and corners as good as these cars.  Hmmmm, a 1967 Lotus Elan dhc anyone?  As old as me but in better nick and more vavavoom. Sounds like bliss.

 

So, after a small but wonderful relationship with Lotus through my Scarlett, I now find myself hooked on the driving experience and lusting after an affair with a sultry blond (seen a lovely original white Esprit Turbo with a shocking but gorgeous red leather interior) and a fire cracker of a dark and brooding black haired beauty in the shape of an Esprit V8 in black with a magnolia interior.  

 

What's more worrying is that my eye is also roving over to their grandma's - an Elan (dhc or +2) or a JPS Europa anyone!

I guess I've well and truly fallen in love with the Lotus driving experience, and I know need to accept I am, like many of the cars, getting on a bit!   

 

What a great post, and sums up exactly how I feel about the Marque.  Thank you.

 

Oh - and JPS Europa, please for me.   The OH wants a Elan DHC - but that may just be because I bore her to tears with the classifieds every night and she's just playing along to keep me happy!

[Guest hosscartwri]

Mr50bmg - Fortunately I did not suffer the frustrations of a flat battery in my Cayman S but I do recall

reading the handbook (yes - a nerd but there you are!) and being surprised at the procedure for charging a

flat battery. Porsche did improve the materials quality quite substantially for the latest generation of

Caymans BUT they also took much of the feel out of it at anywhere near legal road speeds by making it too

capable with too many driver aids. Superb though when driven hard.

My early introduction to Lotus was through a picture of a blue 'bread van' Europa that I had on my bedroom

wall, later, a friend had a Elan 2 + 2 (don't recall details but the electrics were not great) and another

friend who, 35 years ago had (still has) an Elan. He still has it as a restoration project (yet to be

started). I think I was the last person to ride in it all those years ago - the engine had a valve problem

but even with that handicap, I remember being smitten by the roadholding - I recall the acceleration wasn't bad but was clearly well down on what a healthy engine would be capable of.

In the era of my lust for a Lotus Europa (mid teens) I had decided that by 21 I would have a Lotus and a

Ferrari by 28 - failed miserably on both counts but making up for it in my love for my Elise S.

I've wandered way off topic but, as previously mentioned, I would implore Lotus to really concentrate on

quality control as, in this day and age, expectations are that new cars do not rattle and clonk. Many

enthusiasts will ignore these shortcomings (I am willing to 'forgive' the Elise these irritations for the

sheer feel and fun of driving it) but to be a healthy company able to develop new vehicles, Lotus almost

certainly needs more than just enthusiasts to buy their cars. List price of a fairly basic spec Elise S is

around £43,000 - mid range Audi, BMW, Merc price territory - vastly different cars of course, but rattles

and clonks are almost unheard (no pun intended) of from these manufacturers. People spending £80,000 plus on the Evora 400 are very unlikely to tolerate such shortcomings.

Appreciate that clonks and rattles do not (necessarily) impact reliability but they do impact perceived

quality which many buyers these days will rank up there with reliability when deciding which vehicles to

short list/purchase

[Chillidoggy]

There's also the hissing to contend with.

[Alex Carter]

I always like the "nice car mate lots of trouble usually serious " type I always hold a smile look them dead in the face without any emotion and say "no you've got it wrong its"lots of torque usually sideways " the simpletons sit for a second and you can hear the cogs turning while they work it out .just as they figure that works out aswell I just say yes and walk away . Usually met with an apology lol

[rudolphwolven]

 

From a Lamborghini-owner advertising to sell his Gallardo with engine damage.......

"Gallardo`s are known to the aluminum block around 50.000 mls / 80,000 km need to be overhauled. The aluminum piston skirts are worn"..............???

Did you know that ?......................my goodness, I am glad owing a Turbo SE...........

Beyond a Google-translation of the advertisement:

Lamborghini Gallardo with engine damage........€ 45.000,- / GBP 33.500,-
Motor does not, it should be overhauled.
Gallardo`s are known to the aluminum block around 80,000 km need to be overhauled. The aluminum piston skirts are worn.
Initial diagnosis is that the leak is koppacking and at least one piston is broken. Further damage to the block is not known. The engine is still mounted in the car and was also not removed.
In short, the engine must be equipped with at least 10 new pistons, new piston koppacking and walls of steel cans or nico seal. This will cost approximately € 7000.- € 8000.- a ex VAT and exclusive of and installation. Such price indications can be requested from engine overhaul. Whether further components have to be replaced is unknown.

Dutch car since 2004 (state license plates)
Year: 2003 Mileage 76.000
Schadevrij.3 the owner since 2011
Transmission: e-gear
Options: 19 inch wheels with 6mm profile tires.
Built-in radar detector stinger ventura
Big screen navigation with rear view camera
The car is for the rest in good condition.
In March 2014, the pressure group with clutch has been replaced.
Also, even when the air conditioning pump and wheel bearings replaced.
Dealer maintained, books and accounts are available.

 

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/auto-s/lamborghini/m960475714-lamborghini-gallardo-e-gear-2003-met-motorschade.html?c=aba4801fe1dcfdf8e084fd4b2e0a17e&utm_source=criteo&utm_medium=remarketing&utm_campaign=CA_LF_Buy _Products_Criteo&utm_content=300x250

Edited September 30, 2015 by rudolphwolven

[Escape]

Very surprised there are actually Lambo's out there with more than 50k miles! I expected them all to be stored somewhere and only brought out for shows..

[Barrykearley]

what a tragedy - cars should be used....

[Fueltheburn]

Very surprised there are actually Lambo's out there with more than 50k miles! I expected them all to be stored somewhere and only brought out for shows..

Audi R8s use the same engine and are famed for munching piston rings and writing off the cars because of the value of the engine and damage caused.

Friend of a friend had one that went through a litre of oil in a few hundred miles for a ling time before being diagnosed as terminal engine failure with less than 80k on the clock. 

He simply handed it back as it was lease hire.

[C8RKH]

Audi R8s use the same engine and are famed for munching piston rings and writing off the cars because of the value of the engine and damage caused.

Friend of a friend had one that went through a litre of oil in a few hundred miles for a ling time before being diagnosed as terminal engine failure with less than 80k on the clock. 

He simply handed it back as it was lease hire.

Ah ha, that'll be that much vaunted and bragged about German quality engineering we all hear so much about... compare that to a handmade Aston V12 or V8 to see what real quality and longevity looks like!

Shame they're  dropping them for..... oh shit ...... German made Mercede engines. You can't  stop progress I suppose, whatever direction it is in.

And re previous poster, raher than being surrised re being stored forshows, Ithought they all had some dodgy VW software that made them spontaneously combust after 40k miles   Wouldn't  be the first time they used dodgy software in a VAG car -  boom boom !  

These joke are going to run for miles......

Edited October 2, 2015 by C8RKH

[Bravo73]

Ah ha, that'll be that much vaunted and bragged about German quality engineering we all hear so much about... compare that to a handmade Aston V12 or V8 to see what real quality and longevity looks like!

You do know where the current AM V12 and V8 engines are made, don't you??!?

[simon mac]

All I have to say on the matter is this:

via this:

and this :

and this:

and this: 

 

 

'nuff said really

[C8RKH]

You do know where the current AM V12 and V8 engines are made, don't you??!?

yep. Germany but only after we showed them how to do it right!!!!  

[Barrykearley]

The sad picture of lucky lady's evora 400 on a low loader doesn't help.

but - let's face it all brands have issues with new car roll outs. I'm afraid I could forgive lotus most things once the engine is roaring correctly

[Bravo73]

yep. Germany but only after we showed them how to do it right!!!!  

Hardly. Ford chose to build the engines in a German plant for good reason.

They had plenty of UK options when they made the decision.

[Charlotte]

The sad picture of lucky lady's evora 400 on a low loader doesn't help.

but - let's face it all brands have issues with new car roll outs. I'm afraid I could forgive lotus most things once the engine is roaring correctly

Yes, apologies for that picture, I am new to the Lotus forum and didn't think about the negativity it may create. I just thought being Lotus owners, people would like to know what happened. Lotus were excellent in sorting out the problem and I now have her back and thoroughly enjoying driving my car again. I agree that if you buy a brand new car from the first batch, you are bound to have issues, which I am totally fine with. I love Lotus for being British, and have such dedicated followers and such friendly owners. I am proud to finally own one myself and will continue to buy Lotus rather than anything else. We test drove Aston, Maserati, Jaguar, you name it, we tried it and this was the Evora 400 was the best drive out of the lots. I have faith that if there are any other problems, the dedicated Lotus team will sort it out. Thank you Lotus.