The Donald.

[DaveC72]

And here’s me thinking that a “turtle” was the result of a high risk cough...

[top-plumber]

[USAndretti42]

I think that graphic is hardly fair.  More jobs were being added during the last few years of the Obama administration than under Trump.  The economy just continued its upward trajectory it had taken since coming out of the 2009 recession.

Regarding taxes, US citizens pay US tax on any income earned anywhere in the world.  There are reciprocal agreements with various governments where they take into account the tax paid to a foreign country so you don't pay double tax but if you, say, were an American citizen living here and won the UK lottery, you would pay tax to the US goverment on those winnings.  So they should have a vote as a future administration will affect them.

[C8RKH]

10 hours ago, USAndretti42 said:

So they should have a vote as a future administration will affect them

Should have a vote as a US citizen, yes, in those circumstances.

However in Britain, you can be a British citizen, but not live here, and not pay any taxes here (hence the reason for the tax haven homes). So no vote as far as I am concerned.

However, not a British Citizen. But permanently live here (not the same as having rights of residence/work) and work and pay taxes here. Then as far as I am concerned you should be able to vote.

[comem47]

On 10/11/2020 at 09:27, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Just a quick question on the “two nations separated by a common language” theme.

In the UK a turtle is a water-borne creature with flippers and a tortoise is its land-based cousin with legs, often kept as pets.

In the US it seems that both animals are called turtles. Is that correct?

In the US it refers to Mitch McConnell , Senate Majority leader who pulls his head into his shell and makes himself scarce when it comes to doing the right thing for the people is concerned . Another lifetime politician who is in it strictly for himself and party.

[Loquacious Lew]

On 10/11/2020 at 08:27, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Just a quick question on the “two nations separated by a common language” theme.

In the UK a turtle is a water-borne creature with flippers and a tortoise is its land-based cousin with legs, often kept as pets.

In the US it seems that both animals are called turtles. Is that correct?

I think we make the same distinction but that won't account for sloppy usage by the scientifically illiterate of which we seem to have a surplus.    

[Loquacious Lew]

On 08/11/2020 at 09:56, C8RKH said:

You have completely misinterpreted my post, where I spoke about the sentiments behind the messages. You ignored the parts about the institutional issues in the US.  It seems our troubles were over 3 decades ago but unfortunately for many Americans the troubles have never stopped and we look back at you thinking you're still very much stuck in the 50's. What did Obama really do about that?  My point is Presidents comes and go. Some are good and some are meh.  But the society in the US is not changing or has not changed and that is nothing to do with who the President is. 

I don't think I misinterpreted your post.  Indeed, we have had institutional problems since the beginning when the nation was founded by an elite who compromised on many issues simply to support slavery.  That legacy has dogged us for two centuries.  I'll add to your accurate comments by arguing the ones I find inaccurate.  I think it's ultimately the responsibility of individuals to understand this history and be supportive of change so as to adapt our opaque customs and any  inappropriate regulations  to erase the inherent inequalities.  Trump's election and the subsequent consequences fall squarely on the shoulders of  the people who continue to support these anachronisms (those who voted for and support him) but it's his inflammatory rhetoric and continued lawlessness (top of the list: obstruction of justice, just as we see today) and total pandering to the vile side of human nature  that has provided the spark and the permission to his mouth breathers to wreck further havoc on us.

Nothing absolves Trump of taking complete advantage of the situation and driving a wedge further into the heart of the matter.  You can blame the institutions for allowing this travesty to occur but Trump has weaponized all of the divisions in an effort to shore up his base and create the confusion required for a man like him to survive and thrive.  He's responsible and he and his Reds, the lot of them, are now attempting to subvert the electoral results and taint the Biden presidency before they even acknowledge its legitimacy.  We are being treated and are witness to an attempted highway robbery by Trump and his sycophants.  We are responsible for the background, he's responsible for the treason, lies and division that now racks the nation.  His unwillingness to accept the reality of the vote is all we need for proof of his malfeasance.  His criminality has nothing to do with anything but his flawed character. 

[USAndretti42]

Not a fan, then.

[Neal H]

Lifelong Democrat?

[mg4lotus]

Realist?

[Techyd]

The guardian is reporting today that he's now asking his supporters to fund his 'election defense fund', which apparently has small print saying a good portion of it (50% or something!) toward paying his campaign debts!

[ramjet]

If he believes so strongly in it, he could use some of his clothing industry sweatshop profits to fund it himself, couldn't he?

[comem47]

I think he's been living rich off of borrowed money most of his life. Now that he's heading out of office I'm waiting for the debtors to come calling. (and of course the IRS). Throw in a few criminal charges and I think he's scrambling to scam the next mark now that the President game is up.

[C8RKH]

he's not a very nice man but he is a product of America and you could argue his ilk are celebrated and held up of what you can achieve as the American Dream. America has worshipped at the idol of celebrity and success for a long time. So why anyone should be surprised characters like Trump come along is beyond my wits to understand.

So @Loquacious Lew are you laying the blame for America's societal issues now on the founding fathers? I do wonder how people who died 200 years ago can be held accountable for actions today.  I agree that it is the responsibility of individuals to understand their history and strive to amend their laws, customs and regulations to learn the lessons of the past and be the change for the future. It's just a damn crying shame that so many Americans still to have views and beliefs that are at best rooted in the societal norms of the 1950's, at worst, still stuck back in the 18th century!  Slavery was abolished in when, 1865 IIRC in the USA. Again, I find it pretty hard to understand how society's views, in many parts of the US, have not been able to move on and change in the proceeding 155 years!  That is just shocking to be frank. The treatment of native Indians, even to this day, is shameful. As if it wasn't enough to take their lands from them, they remain one of the most heavily discriminated against groups of people anywhere, and this in the land of the free and the home of the leader of the free world!  There are so many contradictions and oxymoron's in the rhetoric that the US loves to peddle.

Trump is not the cause of this. He's an old git. But he is not THAT old!  He is a product of the success at all costs, you can be whatever you dream, it's your right to get rich mantra that is pushed in so many institutions in the US.  He is a product of "old American families". However, whilst you can wonder why he got in in the first place, you really, in my very humble opinion, need to wonder about why the Democrats could not stop him winning first time round.  That is the real shocker.

Trump is not the first President to be impeached. He is not the first to be found out to have told lies. To have manipulated policies. Etc. He won't be the last either. We can learn that from history.

To blame everything on Trump is easy. But scapegoating always has been easy.  Would I like him as a ruler of my country? Absolutely not. Would I like to work for him? Absolutely not. Would I like him as a neighbour? Absolutely not. Is he the Devil reincarnated? No. He's just an opportunist with a massive ego and the ability to convince people. Musk reminds me of Trump in many ways. To so many Americans he is worshipped and adored. A visionary. A superb business man. Yadda yadda.  Remind me again how much profits his companies have ever made against how much cash they have consumed to get there?  

America's a great country. I've worked for two American companies and spent a lot of time there. I love it. But it does need to tackle the racism "issue" once and for all and it does need to start to level the playing field.  The problem is, not even Biden as President will scratch the surface of that issue.

I'm glad Trump is going. I truly am. The next five years hopefully will show some real change. Though how much of that will actually make it in to legislation, I don't know. So maybe it is the people who need to be the driver of change. to set the example to the Politicians and one that they will be forced to follow.

 

 

 

[comem47]

Trump services American greed. He's the scam man selling you a dream and  many are too greedy and gullible and believe his used car salesman pitch. Shame on them. I steer clear of carnival barker types. I like how for several months he's been selling "the cure is just around the corner" and "the election will be a fraud if I don't win".

His daddy got him the money to begin the scam (not self made) with real estate and he gambles and defaults with taxpayer money.

Trump, Trump just go away and take your spawn with you and hopefully the gullible have learned a lesson..

[Loquacious Lew]

19 hours ago, C8RKH said:

he's not a very nice man but he is a product of America and you could argue his ilk are celebrated and held up of what you can achieve as the American Dream. America has worshipped at the idol of celebrity and success for a long time. So why anyone should be surprised characters like Trump come along is beyond my wits to understand.

So @Loquacious Lew are you laying the blame for America's societal issues now on the founding fathers? I do wonder how people who died 200 years ago can be held accountable for actions today.  I agree that it is the responsibility of individuals to understand their history and strive to amend their laws, customs and regulations to learn the lessons of the past and be the change for the future. It's just a damn crying shame that so many Americans still to have views and beliefs that are at best rooted in the societal norms of the 1950's, at worst, still stuck back in the 18th century!  Slavery was abolished in when, 1865 IIRC in the USA. Again, I find it pretty hard to understand how society's views, in many parts of the US, have not been able to move on and change in the proceeding 155 years!  That is just shocking to be frank. The treatment of native Indians, even to this day, is shameful. As if it wasn't enough to take their lands from them, they remain one of the most heavily discriminated against groups of people anywhere, and this in the land of the free and the home of the leader of the free world!  There are so many contradictions and oxymoron's in the rhetoric that the US loves to peddle.

Trump is not the cause of this. He's an old git. But he is not THAT old!  He is a product of the success at all costs, you can be whatever you dream, it's your right to get rich mantra that is pushed in so many institutions in the US.  He is a product of "old American families". However, whilst you can wonder why he got in in the first place, you really, in my very humble opinion, need to wonder about why the Democrats could not stop him winning first time round.  That is the real shocker.

Trump is not the first President to be impeached. He is not the first to be found out to have told lies. To have manipulated policies. Etc. He won't be the last either. We can learn that from history.

To blame everything on Trump is easy. But scapegoating always has been easy.  Would I like him as a ruler of my country? Absolutely not. Would I like to work for him? Absolutely not. Would I like him as a neighbour? Absolutely not. Is he the Devil reincarnated? No. He's just an opportunist with a massive ego and the ability to convince people. Musk reminds me of Trump in many ways. To so many Americans he is worshipped and adored. A visionary. A superb business man. Yadda yadda.  Remind me again how much profits his companies have ever made against how much cash they have consumed to get there?  

America's a great country. I've worked for two American companies and spent a lot of time there. I love it. But it does need to tackle the racism "issue" once and for all and it does need to start to level the playing field.  The problem is, not even Biden as President will scratch the surface of that issue.

I'm glad Trump is going. I truly am. The next five years hopefully will show some real change. Though how much of that will actually make it in to legislation, I don't know. So maybe it is the people who need to be the driver of change. to set the example to the Politicians and one that they will be forced to follow.

 

 

 

Apparently we're not that far apart except that I and many of my compatriots credit Trump with providing a mighty shove closer to a theocratic oligarchy by granting permission to upset the applecart to the confused and regressive, abetted by the unquestioned support of his now completely corrupted Republican party.  This lax attitude towards homegrown fascism, something he actually admires, has been THE major sticking point in American politics since he took office.  That coupled of course, with his corruption, obstruction of process, installation of sycophants and toadies, his attempts to stifle all criticisms, all topped off with his  daily inability to see and convey reality to the populace.  

You keep saying I blame everything on Trump. I blame Trump's actions on Trump.  I credit his election to the misguided beliefs of a large minority of my fellow citizens.  That's not a subtle distinction but seems to be something you are having trouble with. Moreover, I'm unclear why you think leadership is irrelevant unless you truly believe  quality of leadership and governance is of no consequence to the health of a nation.  

 

America can be seen to be great again when it acts great again.  Electing Biden was the first step towards a return.  Let's  hope this  era's  lessons, as even further revealed during the investigations that are sure to follow further clarifies his misdeeds to those set unconvinced by his failures.   I think much hangs in the balance as we teeter between the extremes.  Biden, being a centrist, is probably the right man for the job and here's to hoping he surprises us with his abilities.  His extensive experience in governing and in life as a decent human being should come in handy in  the days to follow.  I should note here for the record that I did not support him in the primary. 

 

Finally, the Constitution is compromised and was from the start despite the fawning deference some devotees have for the  prescience of our Founding Fathers.  They were men of their times and their  creation was a document of its time, reflecting the views of slave owners and those who compromised with them for the next 100 years.  It remains flawed as all human creations and Lotus are. In fact, it's become increasingly difficult to update even at the best of times.  Considering where we (USA) are now, it seems that this skeleton, lauded for it's ability to be adapted, is frozen in time and has become a millstone of sorts even as it's basic tenets remain a model for democracy in a world that has unfortunately moved on much faster than it has in the last 230 years.  

Where  did you get the idea that I blame Trump for everything? 

[scotty435]

It’s not only the USA that as good news on the political front in the last week the Uk as to celebrate with this departure today.

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Perhaps Trump has hired him to help keep in the White House? They deserve each other.

[C8RKH]

15 hours ago, Loquacious Lew said:

Apparently we're not that far apart

I agree and appreciate the robust, but respectful debate. Thank you for that. 👍

[ramjet]

A friend of mine up the street said that Trump had a press conference and still will not concede that he has lost. By his own words apparently, he doesn't like to lose.

As far as I am concerned, he has very quickly become the biggest loser in history.

If not the biggest, then quite definitely the sorest.

[mg4lotus]

@Loquacious Lew @C8RKH

Get a room guys 😄

[ramjet]

A joke for everyone.

Q) What is the difference between Richard Nixon and Donald Trump?

 

 

 

 

A) Richard Nixon was honest.

[EldonZ]

Honest to the Public or to Himself?

[ramjet]

In comparison to DT

[EldonZ]

@ramjetYes.