Future of Lotus

[C8RKH]

I think the sweet spot for Lotus will be in the £50k to £150k price bracket. McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini are above £150k and Lotus will take years to get there in my very humble opinion. Ferrari are coming down to the circa £150/160k price point withe Roma, but think they and the others will struggle to fight for under £150k.

So that puts Lotus squarely in Porsche territory and in my mind they do need better and higher quality packaging to compete but if they do make cars that are truly "for the driver" then they could win a lot of sales from Porsche on driving dynamics in that price range, but only, if the quality and packaging is right.

If it is right, I could see myself keeping my 410 Sport (I actually think the suspension on my Evora 410 Sport is sublime - though I may upgrade to the 430 Ohlins setup - I'll put that in the 430 Club thread though as with a few bits of bodywork I could turn my 410 into a GT430 Sport.... ) and investing in a new, more practical Lotus as a daily driver....  Who knows. Just waiting and seeing what they do, or do not, throw out there. But that MP4 in Volcano Red, as a spider, is bloody tempting my wallet right now.....

[The Pits]

Your crossing streams of drivel from two separate threads there Andy, remember Ghostbusters? 😄

12C in Volcano Red is very handsome thing. Haven't driven one yet alas but would find it fascinating.

See what happens when Lotus don't give us anything to talk about? McLaren this, Ferrari that, Lamborghini the other.

[C8RKH]

3 minutes ago, The Pits said:

See what happens when Lotus don't give us anything to talk about? McLaren this, Ferrari that, Lamborghini the other.

Aye, and when they give us too much to talk about all you get is pish wish moaning about the number of new models / editions in a month! You cannae win either way lol.... Just happy I have the cars I do have.

[Barrykearley]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

and investing in a new, more practical Lotus as a daily driver...

Bloody knew it - you’ve always craved a proper 4 seater

[Bibs]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus-ceo-plans-to-take-firm-into-fast-lane-1-6407805

 

[DarrylV8]

For me this article really does say it all for a company that promotes cars “for the drivers” then why do we get the CEO talking about Autonomy and driverless cars?

Geely we know about “Lotus DNA” and this has been heavily promoted by the new senior management team

Andy - C8RKH please don’t give us any more crap about let’s see what we get in the future from this senior team, the article says it all. Yes I fear the worst, we need a younger MJK at the helm NOW before we do just follow the porky cars!

yes just my two pence of a rant, and off to the pub shortly 

[Mark Blanchard]

What pissed me off last week was going to my Son's school, and meeting one of my son's mate's Dad who happens to be a Director at Aston Martin.  I mentioned Lotus of course and he said in a rather smug way that there had been no orders for the Lotus Evija.   I'm guessing Lotus joining a big player like Geely is a threat to Aston?  Anyway, I hope the news is not true.

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, DarrylV8 said:

Andy - C8RKH please don’t give us any more crap about let’s see what we get in the future from this senior team, the article says it all. Yes I fear the worst, we need a younger MJK at the helm NOW before we do just follow the porky cars!

Daryll,

Happy too. As long as you are willing to eat humble shit pie if they deliver a car for the drivers.

You, like the rest of us, have fook all of a clue as to what the next car will be, so stop giving us this dour we're all doomed crap unless you can categorically confirm the future!

I'm getting tired of the doomsayers telling the rest of us who are trying to be positive we're talking crap when you have no more of a fooking clue as to what Lotus will do next then the rest of us.

Now's the time Daryl to commit your fact based assessment to the record. Get off the fence or fook off!

( Sorry on holiday. Had a few wines, tired of you doomsayers telling me to shut up!)

Just waiting now for Victor Meldrew to weigh in telling me I'm trying too hard to be cool or a dick or whatever takes his fancy this week. 🤪

 

 

[C8RKH]

On 26/02/2015 at 17:28, LotusX180R said:

I always figured the way to go for Lotus as it pertains to engines is to use one that they already did consulting work on.  It was smart to use the GM Ecotec in the Europa S, though it didn't seem that Lotus promoted he fact that they did the engine.  Don't know if the current Toyota V6 is a product of their consulting work, but it would make perfect sense if it was, and promoting as such would go some way to improving Lotus' image (if it was true).

They designed that engine did they not for the Type 116?  The NA VX had a sweet all alloy, lightweight, 2.2 engine designed by Lotus under GM ownership 

The VX turbo used a heavy iron based engine from GM which meant it did not handle as well as the NA, even with a SC added which was effectively a GM designed bolt on add on. I thought, but may be wrong, that it was the iron block engine that went into the Europa. Can someone confirm?

[Likuid]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Daryll,

Happy too. As long as you are willing to eat humble shit pie if they deliver a car for the drivers.

You, like the rest of us, have fook all of a clue as to what the next car will be, so stop giving us this dour we're all doomed crap unless you can categorically confirm the future!

I'm getting tired of the doomsayers telling the rest of us who are trying to be positive we're talking crap when you have no more of a fooking clue as to what Lotus will do next then the rest of us.

Now's the time Daryl to commit your fact based assessment to the record. Get off the fence or fook off!

( Sorry on holiday. Had a few wines, tired of you doomsayers telling me to shut up!)

Just waiting now for Victor Meldrew to weigh in telling me I'm trying too hard to be cool or a dick or whatever takes his fancy this week. 🤪

 

 

Its absolutely bizarre that people are upset that you are holding out judgement until we have actual tangible information. Lets be honest, it doesn't matter what Lotus does. It will never be good enough for some people anyways.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

14 hours ago, Mark Blanchard said:

What pissed me off last week was going to my Son's school, and meeting one of my son's mate's Dad who happens to be a Director at Aston Martin.  I mentioned Lotus of course and he said in a rather smug way that there had been no orders for the Lotus Evija.   I'm guessing Lotus joining a big player like Geely is a threat to Aston?  Anyway, I hope the news is not true.

Why should someone at Aston Martin be privy to the Lotus Evija order book? Sounds like sour grapes. A couple of months back the Lotus dealer network were told during a get-together that there were 20 deposits down. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between? Dealers will get a healthy “finders fee” for any customers they can schmooze into ordering an Evija from the factory. This seems sensible considering the vast sums involved, compared to their daily business. You are also unlikely to see an Evija being serviced at a UK dealer, at least until the EV Lotus is a standard production vehicle. There will need to be major infrastructure investments at dealers for servicing EV cars: eg. designated EV servicing areas for H&S reasons etc. This is already an issue for mainstream manufacturers.

 

edit: of course if they really aren’t selling at RRP, I will take a demonstrator for £80k.

Edited December 6, 2019 by LotusLeftLotusRight

[C8RKH]

I was "told" a few months back, before they took it to China, that 12 deposits had been taken. As with all the other speculation, I dare say we'll find out in due course....

@Mark Blanchard I'd have asked the Aston Martin Director how his shares where performing. I see they have recovered to 25% of their IPO value and looks like Lance Stroll is lining up to buy them!

[electro_boy]

20 hours ago, DarrylV8 said:

For me this article really does say it all for a company that promotes cars “for the drivers” then why do we get the CEO talking about Autonomy and driverless cars?

...

...the article says it all.

I'm not sure you have read the all article?  Yes autonomy is mentioned but its also mentioned it won't be implemented as per the usual way of the car driving you from A to B  while you sit back and have a cuppa.  Lotus are looking to do other innovative things with the autonomy tech.  eg you take your car on the track and the car shows you how to improve your line and lap time.  For me that is embracing the future tech and still in keeping with the Lotus ways. 

[scotty435]

Looking at Aston Martin business plan a few years back you would have thought that looks promising with big investment in new models. Sadly it’s not worked out for them Uk sales down 22% and the rest of the world down 28% and share prices down 26%, sure the SUV announced a few weeks ago will address some of there problems  when it goes on sale, but like C8RKH says the sharks are waiting to pounce on there bad fortune. One as to think that Lotus are doing the totally right thing by taking there time and understand the market before rolling there 5 or 10 year plan, we as enthusiastic have to be patient as in Aston’s case throwing big money at things doesn’t always work.

[The Pits]

Can someone explain what would be the point of a thread on ‘the future of anything’ where speculation was forbidden or discouraged?

And if plans for autonomous tech is just fine and dandy coming from a company that has just rebranded itself as being ‘first, last and always... For The Drivers’ then what would be deemed unacceptable for Lotus to be doing?

[C8RKH]

56 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Can someone explain what would be the point of a thread on ‘the future of anything’ where speculation was forbidden or discouraged?

You are quite correct. However there is a general tone that says if you're optimistic positive you get shouted down and told to shut up by those who seem to want to revel and frolic in what they predict to be a dire new world of soulless Lotus cars.

So, why don't we encourage both points of view and just maybe we'll all get along fine?

Just a thought, feel free to ignore me.

[electro_boy]

I don't think anyone is saying don't speculate.  I think they're saying let's not automatically think it's all going to be crap and against the Lotus values.  

Regarding what features would be unacceptable ... I'll keep an open mind and say it's more about how you implement and use the feature, so won't discount something straight away.  But anything that detracts from the Lotus DNA would not be acceptable in my books.  If the cars became heavy and had little or no thought on use of aerodynamics or driving feel that would all be very sad.  Sure if Lotus suddenly say the next flagship car will be a 4 door saloon with massaging chairs, auto parking and 4 zone climate control all weighting in at 2000Kg ... then I will be very sad and disappointed in the direction Lotus are heading. 

Applying pure speculation on my behalf because there's been about 2 sentences said on the automation side of things.  To me it sounds like a having a driving coach in the car with you, showing you quicker lines, better technique and hopefully getting round the track faster.  I hope you still have to drive the car and perform the actions its telling you otherwise whats the point?! But maybe if your braking point is way too early into one corner, it might modulate the brake to not apply as much pressure as you asked, turn the steering a bit differently than you asked as your entry speed is higher.  Some sort of indication would appear on heads up display or something... So the driver is aware the car took some action and some modification of technique is required and the driver knows what to change on the next lap.  Now I'll admit that, applying this much automation in car will add some weight and remove a lot of feel and communication with the car which the whole point of buying a Lotus but lets hope the engineers can come up with solution to this?  Lotus have a track record of thinking out the box and coming up with some amazing solutions to problems.... 

Obviously if I bought the 311 or its replacement in 20 years time I'm clearly an experienced driver very seriously into track days and after that very raw race car feel and I won't be expecting this feature built in or even an optional extra.  But I if bought an Espirt or its replacement in 20 years, I might be after something less track focussed and happy to accept +50kg weight penalty for this feature.

[NedaSay]

Work on autonomy for all cars makes sense. Especially in SUV's and luxobarges, it makes perfect sense to me, sharing these components with Geely premium brands makes utter sense to me no question about it. Some ADASS systems are going to become mandatory soon in the US soon, first back up cameras, soon after that will probably be automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning system are still a little way away but their time will come too just like we got mandatory seatbelts and ABS. It makes sense to work within the group and bring some of these tech onboard... But since they mostly come as a package and the extra ECU is not that heavy, then can work it in to optimize said packaging. It is going to make the cars slightly heavier because of the extra wiring, cameras and sensors but they will be able to find weight saving elsewhere and the group is big on safety.Bring in this tech is pretty much a no brainer especially if they are in a logic on conquest  with range expansion...

Hence it bugs me when the CEO says: "We have not confirmed we are making an SUV, none of the articles originated from me..." Especially when the SUV is black and white in the yet officially undisclosed business plan. Especially when said SUV is to see production within the first 5 years of said business plan. Because said business plan was originated by somebody else surely... Hopefully Popham start showing more of his hand soon.  

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I don’t think many people would buy a car because the on board computer tells you it can get round a race track quicker than you. Very few people take their cars on a race track anyway. 

[KAS-118]

I’m not sure why there’s so much negativity about using technology to make the cars better? When they were looking at Active Suspension In the 80’s I cant recall many people saying they shouldn’t do so (but perhaps my memory has faded).
 

Surely it’s how it’s used and implemented that counts? 

[electro_boy]

I totally understand people being nervous and pessimistic about tech creeping into Lotus cars. They way it’s traditionally done in cars has resulted in reduced driver engagement and feel and an increase in weight.  So for sure be concerned about the future of Lotus.

but...  there are some companies that like to think out of the box like Koinesegg (sorry that’s probably spelt wrong) who I think are on the cutting edge but I think (never driven one obvs) they are still engaging cars to drive. The tech is used purely to increase performance. 
 

Oh! and also the fact that Popham keeps saying current Lotus values and DNA is top of the list and something they are striving to keep in the new cars. 

So for me that negativity is quashed ... until they release the cars or real hard evidence of what the new cars will be like. Then I’ll happily get the torch and pitchfork out and march to Lotus HQ in an angry mob when the cars are big heavy luxury barges. 

[DarrylV8]

17 hours ago, electro_boy said:

I'm not sure you have read the all article?  Yes autonomy is mentioned but its also mentioned it won't be implemented as per the usual way of the car driving you from A to B  while you sit back and have a cuppa.  Lotus are looking to do other innovative things with the autonomy tech.  eg you take your car on the track and the car shows you how to improve your line and lap time.  For me that is embracing the future tech and still in keeping with the Lotus ways. 

Yes I’m clearly missing something............

AUTONOMOUS & DRIVERLESS cars by the company that promotes cars “for the driver”

[USAndretti42]

I don't think the two, autonomous and "for the driver" are mutually exclusive.  Why not have the autonomous control take over for the commute or the drive home from the pub and be able to switch it off for the B-road blast?

[C8RKH]

If my car is autonomous and can drive me home form the pub then that means SWMBO is officially redundant. I'll be trading her in for an Esprit then....

[The Pits]

Autonomous is being pushed on Lotus by Geely who have an ambition to get the jump on their competitors. Mr Feng mentioned it in his speech at the 70th event at Hethel last year. It was a proper coffee spitting moment then. We were hoping it was a future ambition that was further away and were looking forward to a range of petrol powered interim cars.

I think the thing people here are missing is that the future is bleak for anyone who loves driving fast internal combustion powered road cars. Necessarily so, the world needs to change. We all accept that Lotus will have to become part of the autonomous electrified future to survive long term so the issue for many here is what happens in between. It’s a small window of opportunity and unfortunately not the primary focus of the new management who have been hired to increase volume at all costs. It might be the smarter business decision to scrap the interim cars altogether and put all their chips on full electric sooner. The longer they delay the next car the more likely this becomes in challenging trading conditions.

Anyone that knows me here knows that I have stuck by Lotus through thick and thin (mainly thin!) and am usually on the receiving end of criticism for being blinkered, rose tinted, delusional fan boy  so it’s complete nonsense to dismiss my points as doom mongering. A total cop out from engaging in the debate too. You only have to look at what F1 has lost as a live spectacle, despite the cars being faster to realise that there is no going back to wailing V10s. The very thing that made F1 so special has gone for good. 2020 next year. I’d very surprised if you can buy a road legal petrol sports car from anyone in 2030. Lotus do not have time to muck about. A 70 year line of exceptional drivers cars is coming to an end the CEO is not talking about honouring that lineage with a  petrol car to show the world what Lotus can do with proper funding. No mention of what he’s doing to improve quality (essential for any plan), no interest to date in communicating with existing customers or finding new ones, besides billionaires. Fine for those looking forward to electric Lotus cars but those hoping to drive off into the sunset in a last hurrah petrol Lotus might find that they already own it.

I think they were banking everything on Evija to get them out of jail. We will never know how many orders they really have but they’ll need to sell a lot in order to be able to ignore the current range. Literally not a single thing to date from the new management that wasn’t already in a JMG’s plan. Unless you count the new logo.