Future of Lotus

[NedaSay]

They could also be considering producing more and better NOS for the classic cars and maybe even open an "Aston Martin Works" workshop to cater for the happy few owners willing to have their cars fully restored to a better factory spec.

[stephenwhyte]

2 hours ago, NedaSay said:

They could also be considering producing more and better NOS for the classic cars.......

Now that makes a lot more sense - and I’m sure I heard somewhere that was indeed part of their maintaining the heritage plan 👍

[NedaSay]

Ok lets indulge this thing...  The Esprit is back,  and it will getV6 hybrid engine, homegrown using Geely-Volvo tech.

It is very feasible and has been discussed before. The engine base does exist and Geely would probably more than happy to provide it  o Lotus with the spec they desire. V6 twin turbo or possibly twin electric superchargers because Volvo has been this tech for a while. In fact, at least two options are possible: the seasoned Geely JLV 6G35 (originally developed with Volvo) comes as a 3.5L V6 normally aspirated, for some 270 bhp... adding a couple of turbocharger or supercharger, reworking the internals  and putting a mild hybrid 48v battery setup would get this thing in the 600 to 700bhp without too much of a fuss and limited weight gains. Or - and that is more out there - They could have taken two 3cyl 1.5 Drive-E heads and bolted them on a new and bespoke V6 block. This engine would make - on paper - a 3L twin-turbo V6 with 360bhp before you start tuning it.Cyan racing have been tuning the Drive-E engines to kingdom come reaching over 500bhp on the 2L 4cyl version of the engine same architecture and they made the thing road legal somehow!

Regardless, the important thing here is that Lotus has access to its own engine factory Yiwu, Zhejiang province. They can prototype things in Hethel, tweak available designs to suit their needs and send the spec to Yiwu where they can be produced to "Volvo" standards. The engine will be bespoke to Lotus but based on Geely-Volvo components ensuring cost effectiveness and reliability. The question is longitudinal or transversal layout... logic dictates the first layout for optimal weight distribution, but Geely-Volvo products have been all using transverse layout for a while now. it doesn't really matter has Geely  is a client of AISIN AW so they can get the best they can offer, 6MT and 8 AT or even Geely's own 7DCT if Geely said yes to provide Lotus with a bespoke version of that gearbox. https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201910/10/WS5d9e840ca310cf3e3556f92c.html

With VVA + using even more alloy and exotic materials and being a strict two seater, it may be within Evora weight range. 

Now the autocar sketch on the cover makes me think more of a competitor for the Alpine a110 than a full blown supercar, but that is just me.

[The Pits]

Or the plan to pitch it at Cayman level didn't work out so they've decided to pitch it higher up, swap 4 cyl plans for a V6, 4 cyl becomes a tough sell over £100k. Take cues from Evija, go for hybrid tech to bring it closer to Evija. Geely are all about tech so they'll want to showcase some on their premium sports car brand. Evija does that in spades. Going to a supercharged V6 would seem a step backwards. It was only a stop gap measure anyway, not the car Lotus really want to be making. As for hybrids and driving dynamics La Ferrari, McLaren P1 and 918 Spyder owners seem happy enough with it. New NSX handles well too according to the few that have driven one. At least a hybrid would give the next Lotus a point of difference and mainstream buyers go for luxury over light weight every time. I'd rather Lotus pitch the next 2 seater as a baby McLaren than a Cayman and much rather Lotus took inspiration from McLaren than Porsche. I think that's a positive step but will mean longer delays which is a dangerous game when the pace of change in the industry is so rapid.

Don't see them using the Esprit name. They went weird and left field with 'Evija'. Esprit has baggage that won't help them break with past and reach new customers. Styling doesn't go anywhere near the Esprit.

I guess the Evora will be left to limp on as it is but they really can't afford to ignore the current range any longer. Maybe an Evora interior revamp will be back on the cards later this year. Exige might get an update though which could be exciting. Previous plans for the Evora based 2 seater were essentially to replace both Evora and Exige but pitching the new car above the Evora means that is no longer the case. Could mean the Exige is allowed to remain extreme and pure.

[C8RKH]

Lotus owners are buying new cars typically at between £40 and £90k. So squarely in the Porsche Cayman/Boxster and 911 Carrera space.

Would those same customers wish and have the means to go to £100k  to £200k and if they were buying at that price point then the marque, prestige, dealers, customer service etc will need to be totally transformed.

So a new Lotus for £100k plus or, a McLaren; high Spec 911, Ferrari, etc.

I love Lotus but if these predictions are correct they are going in a new direction, away from many of their current customers.

One thing is for sure, it is going to be an interesting next 2 years.

Maybe we need a McLaren section on here 😂😂😂😂 so far, I think that's my future direction.

 

[Akajak]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

Or the plan to pitch it at Cayman level didn't work out so they've decided to pitch it higher up, swap 4 cyl plans for a V6, 4 cyl becomes a tough sell over £100k. Take cues from Evija, go for hybrid tech to bring it closer to Evija. Geely are all about tech so they'll want to showcase some on their premium sports car brand. Evija does that in spades. Going to a supercharged V6 would seem a step backwards. It was only a stop gap measure anyway, not the car Lotus really want to be making. As for hybrids and driving dynamics La Ferrari, McLaren P1 and 918 Spyder owners seem happy enough with it. New NSX handles well too according to the few that have driven one. At least a hybrid would give the next Lotus a point of difference and mainstream buyers go for luxury over light weight every time. I'd rather Lotus pitch the next 2 seater as a baby McLaren than a Cayman and much rather Lotus took inspiration from McLaren than Porsche. I think that's a positive step but will mean longer delays which is a dangerous game when the pace of change in the industry is so rapid.

Don't see them using the Esprit name. They went weird and left field with 'Evija'. Esprit has baggage that won't help them break with past and reach new customers. Styling doesn't go anywhere near the Esprit.

I guess the Evora will be left to limp on as it is but they really can't afford to ignore the current range any longer. Maybe an Evora interior revamp will be back on the cards later this year. Exige might get an update though which could be exciting. Previous plans for the Evora based 2 seater were essentially to replace both Evora and Exige but pitching the new car above the Evora means that is no longer the case. Could mean the Exige is allowed to remain extreme and pure.

410 exige update with AIM style interface on the cards

[KAS-118]

16 hours ago, Bibs said:

https://theredline.com.au/interview-david-mcintyre-lotus-cars/

 

5 hours ago, The Pits said:

I guess the Evora will be left to limp on as it is but they really can't afford to ignore the current range any longer. Maybe an Evora interior revamp will be back on the cards later this year. 

Bibs' linked article identifies that it was the Evora that accounted for the majority of their Sales Increase. So it still seems to have life in it. 

My (perhaps incorrect) understanding was that the 'stop-gap' was to replace the Evora with something based upon it - and still being petrol; but then the intention was electrification.

Whilst both the above could be interpreted to being 'Hybrids' I think that's ultimately an evolutionary dead-end.

I would tend to agree with @C8RKH that the customer base they should be aiming at is in the £40k (maybe £50k) to £90k range - after all I thought Lotus had indicated Porsche was their main focus to compete against?

[Advantage]

Another new Esprit and another five year plan. Is that the fourth or fifth time this combination has been lauded? Can someone remind me of the etiquette here, please. Are we supposed to be excitedly giggling or cynically eye rolling? I forget which one we're up to. 

[The Pits]

I would love to see Lotus go after the MX5 but it’s not realistic at this time. Lotus need mass production to be able to make sports cars that cheaply. Current production levels do not allow them to compete with the Cayman on price either. So however much we want Lotus to be priced between certain price points we have to make do with the level that is profitable. Or buy something else. Easy to say the Evora’s overpriced but it’s more engaging to drive than any McLaren I’ve driven to date. I still find the Sports series cars a bit unattractive but I’d love to try a 720S, very much admire it. Must be shockingly fast but would need to be convinced it was worth giving up the Evora for. The magic and communication is there at all speeds so wouldn’t want to give that up for something that feels like it’s just getting started at 100mph. Great for impressing friends down the pub. Not so great at impressing me on my own at sane/legal speeds down a B road. I have a 1000cc superbike and yes that feels utterly wasted 99% of the time on the roads. Absolutely love it as a piece of extreme, exotic engineering and could enjoy that about a 720S too, plus the 1% might just be worth it but the frustration is undeniable.

Not at all concerned with what’s next, very happy with what I’ve got for now. Chances of trading it in for a new Lotus Evija lite are very slim currently. More interested in seeing where they take the Exige. With the new 2 seater aiming more at daily useability, luxury and tech it should allow the Exige to remain undiluted and hardcore. Even faster too if they keep making it for a while. Last and nuttiest Exige V6 whenever it comes is what I’m keeping my eye on.

[jep]

31 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Easy to say the Evora’s overpriced but it’s more engaging to drive than any McLaren I’ve driven to date. I still find the Sports series cars a bit unattractive but I’d love to try a 720S, very much admire it. Must be shockingly fast but would need to be convinced it was worth giving up the Evora for. The magic and communication is there at all speeds so wouldn’t want to give that up for something that feels like it’s just getting started at 100mph. 

12c is equally engaging as Evora, arguably more so. And at normal speeds. A 12c in the Surrey hills in track mode using half throttle is just a hoot. The steering feel is better than Evora. And you have the bonus of 600bhp on the 'bahns or track. Plus adjustable suspension at your fingertips. If road conditions are bad on a long run, stay in auto and cruise. It does it all (less the very useful rear seats/luggage space of Evora that I do find a real bonus). I imagine 720S is all the 12c is and more, though why one needs another 100bhp, I don't know. 

I think McLaren have taken a decent chunk of Evora sales since 2010, particularly an older McLaren vs a new Evora. 

As many ex-lotus chaps work at McLaren, it is hardly surprising that the cars are very Lotus-like. And in many aspects better, 'cos McLaren have more dosh. Lotus have all the talent to build a 12c or 720 but they did not have the cash. That market has now gone to others, so they need to find a different path. 

I do agree that the Evora is not over-priced. A bespoke, special car that delivers oodles of fun and character, be it 276 or 430bhp. Such a wonderful bit of kit. 

Justin 

[mayevora]

7 hours ago, C8RKH said:

 

Maybe we need a McLaren section on here 😂😂😂😂 so far, I think that's my future direction.

 

I’m half with you there - Who doesn’t love a McLaren. 👍😊
 

The Esprit has been out of production for 16 years now. 2004 New Esprit price was a shade over $90000 USD (can’t remember price in £‘s) so add in inflation and it should be well over 100K if/when it is eventually re-launched imo.

[C8RKH]

5 minutes ago, mayevora said:

it should be well over 100K if/when it is eventually re-launched imo.

I agree. But it feels/sounds like that's the next price point for the new Elise!

Looking at likely competitors, £150k for an equivalent new Esprit should be the entry point 

3 hours ago, KAS-118 said:

I would tend to agree with @C8RKH that the customer base they should be aiming at is in the £40k (maybe £50k) to £90k range - after all I thought Lotus had indicated Porsche was their main focus to compete against?

Spot on!

[The Pits]

GT430 sets the bar for driving engagement for me. Elise and Exige even more intensely so but in a narrower operating window. McLaren is only faster and easier which is the direction Lotus are keen to go in. It has worked wonders for Ferrari, Porsche and Lambo sales.

[scotty435]

McLaren is only faster and easier which is the direction Lotus are keen to go in.

Lets hope lotus don’t want to go in the direction of McLaren when it comes to reliability 

[mdavies]

I'm hoping for some clarification about the forgoing discussion by asking just what is being discussed?

Last night I commented that Autocar had written a mishmash article, painting the heading Esprit across words (and picture) that were far more relevant to the "Evora replacement/stop gap" 2 seater, coming "soonish".  And precious little to do with a future Esprit, coming in some longer time.  What has been said here since, across the posts, has not made that distinction clear to me - an "it" has been mentioned - but what is "it"?

My belief is that there are two quite separate and distinct new cars in the works.  The first, and the only one worth discussion, rather than speculation, is that intended to address the price range of the current Evora, perhaps £70K - £110K and built using its chassis. And a future car needed by Lotus to replace the Evora, IMO.  Prices significantly above  £100K and McLaren comparisons are irrelevant to that car.  Autocar mentions the Evora chassis and a Toyota-related V6 plus a hybrid something, and Evija-like bodywork. I don't see a price below £100K as unachievable for such a thing, even with added toys.

Autocar's mentions of a new riveted chassis and a new range are perhaps indeed a basis for an Esprit, of who knows what shape, but the two quite separate in my mind - am I right?

        

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, mdavies said:

am I right?

No idea!  Huge amount of informed speculation but just how informed is it?

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I think the only time the word Autocar is written on here is when they come up with one of their guesstimates of what the next Lotus may possibly look like, be powered by, cost and so on. They just seem to make it up as they go along. 

[Bibs]

8 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

They just seem to make it up as they go along. 

This. Sells mags though.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

On 15/02/2020 at 10:55, geartox said:

Do you know if Lotus will be present at the Geneva Motorshow 2020 ?

Nor will any other manufacturer. Event cancelled. 

Maybe it’s about time China starting paying out a few billions globally in compensation for this outbreak?

[C8RKH]

Well if you're going down that route then France owes billions for its air traffic controller and farmer protest cancellations and delays. About time they paid up! 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I’ve got a Trade Fair of my own to exhibit at in Germany next month. It’s usually extremely well attended by the Chinese and North Italians. It’s not just the time you spend on stand duty, it’s also all the time you spend squashed like sardines in public transport getting in and out of the event each day, that has the potential for spreading any virus locally. The duly afflicted could unknowingly take this back home with them and trigger another outbreak elsewhere.

[NedaSay]

17 hours ago, mdavies said:

I'm hoping for some clarification about the forgoing discussion by asking just what is being discussed?

Last night I commented that Autocar had written a mishmash article, painting the heading Esprit across words (and picture) that were far more relevant to the "Evora replacement/stop gap" 2 seater, coming "soonish".  And precious little to do with a future Esprit, coming in some longer time.  What has been said here since, across the posts, has not made that distinction clear to me - an "it" has been mentioned - but what is "it"?

My belief is that there are two quite separate and distinct new cars in the works.  The first, and the only one worth discussion, rather than speculation, is that intended to address the price range of the current Evora, perhaps £70K - £110K and built using its chassis. And a future car needed by Lotus to replace the Evora, IMO.  Prices significantly above  £100K and McLaren comparisons are irrelevant to that car.  Autocar mentions the Evora chassis and a Toyota-related V6 plus a hybrid something, and Evija-like bodywork. I don't see a price below £100K as unachievable for such a thing, even with added toys.

Autocar's mentions of a new riveted chassis and a new range are perhaps indeed a basis for an Esprit, of who knows what shape, but the two quite separate in my mind - am I right?

        

That was JMG initial stop gap plan, two cars  before the next generation chassis architecture: one in the Exige slot, one above the Evora slot (quickly renamed new Esprit). But then Popham was put in charge and it all got murky because Popham doesn't say much and then the one car got delayed from late 2019 to late 2020 and now to early 2021 and the other car was mothballed or delayed even further... Which would make it part of the all new generation of cars. The funny thing is that the next gen chassis architecture will be more evolution than revolution, still aluminium bonded and riveted extrusions, still Versatile Vehicle Architecture. Probably even more aluminium intensive.  The big difference between stop gap and next gen maybe more in propulsion system but chassis. JMG wanted to package protect his next gen cars for EV and skip hybrids altogether, and now we hear of hybrids (of unknown type) being the next gen...

[mdavies]

Thanks, Nico, for addressing my basic question, rather than the confusing mush from Autocar that I had already criticised.  Your explanation rationalises why the posts prior to mine were essentially "free-floating" and hence so varied.

It remains my belief that two new cars are still "in the works", one sort of Evija-ish in appearance for a reveal late 2020 and availability 2021, and one at an unknown stage of development, but I suspect at least at a concept stage.  

[geartox]

@LotusLeftLotusRight Indeed GIMS is cancelled. I am in Geneva and everything is changing now due to the Corona virus. It's more safe to avoid this kind of event. Cars can wait.

 

 

[comem47]