Future of Lotus

[C8RKH]

I'm a corporate product cut from the mould!

It was funny Johnny but I was just on a video conf. call as I read your post. It resonated and one of the people on the call was spouting a load of corporate guff for about 5 minutes. At the end of it I could not resist and just said "err, OK, but what was your point again". I nearly wet myself as I could see a couple of the participants had spat coffee (well I hope it was anyway) onto their laptop cameras!  It's stuff like that that keeps me sane in a very corporate world! Although I have realised a couple of times I've wondered off on a call, with my bluetooth ears on, gone for a jimmy widdle whilst forgetting to go on mute, so treating everyone on the call to the sounds of niagra tinkling away followed by a tsunami of toilet flushing. You do get some funny look when you return back in front of your computer. Especially, if they did not hear you wash your hands and then you then put a chocolate hob nob in your mouth! This new normal is actually quite funny!

[Techyd]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

You forgot that we "need to fully leverage our assets, mobilise our talent pool, to ensure that we have aligned the goals, optimised our ducks, so they are all lined up, along the shaft of the arrow, to create a lazer focus on our target and maximise our opportunities to obfuscate the real outcome. We are seeking to drive value to our whole stakeholder groups whilst securing a net zero carbon neutral outcome for the new normal world of tomorrow that will deliver exponential benefits for our customers and ensure a product that delivers, for the drivers, and their passengers, and Costa and Starbucks, through a ruggedised repository for cardboard vessels of hot liquid".  Then shut up, sit back, and watch everyone go wow and nod their heads in agreement at the outstanding strategy that you have just not clearly articulated.

Get this man a promotion, he really knows his stuff!!

[DarrylV8]

Having spoken to a few of the long time Lotus guys still at Hethal i can confirm my LOVE for Lotus is back on the straight and narrow, Jaguars/McLarens are not for me! 

I just need to have more patience like my good woman!

[C8RKH]

Sometimes being a fan of Lotus is like having the most beautiful wife in the world who always has a headache!

[Spinney]

Dear god, I really do despair! Not about you Andy, but some of the other terminally pessimistic characters on here. One in particular! 🙈

[The Pits]

Anyone heard from Andy lately? Quiet around here without him.

Anyhoo, who wants a Cayman/Alpine rival at £60k?

Or would you prefer a jnr McLaren at £110k?

Assume amazing styling, Lotus dynamics, ICE engine and more daily useability applies equally to both.

 

[Frickin_idiot]

I’d like a Cayman rival based on affordability, that said I could understand if they went in at the Jnr McLaren level.

[Bibs]

Childish posts removed.

If you can't discuss this issue respectfully and sensibly please exercise some restraint instead. 

Not a point for discussion, now back on topic please. 

[Andrew C]

On 28/04/2020 at 10:39, C8RKH said:

Well, Defender's have always been trendy around the county tweed set where I live, and Range Rovers too.  It's a bit like Burberry and Harris Tweed, as the gentrification of the countryside has influenced people's thinking on lifestyle etc. Obviously also helped by footballers and their wives driving the bloody things too.

I'd hate Lotus to be a fashion accessory but then as others have said there are alternative fashion brands to buy. Porsche being one. I will say though that the shift upmarket in terms of following the fashion hasn't really helped Maserati long term has it?

 

Macca 570GT, nice interior and exterior colour combo. Only 850 miles from new. £113k at a Macca dealer, but reckon I could get it for £100 - £105k.  That is what Lotus is going to up against as it moves up the hierarchy...

Fantastic car 

[DarrylV8]

Yes a fantastic car, though i wouldn't swap my 430 for one, and the new car the factory is readying for next year will also be better than the McLaren??

[scotty435]

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/lotus/evora/lotus-evora-gt430-brand-new-andamp-unregistered--0-apr-finance-included/8677047

If I had £100-110k this is where I would put my money, not a used Macca that would probably break down on a good few occasions and make the ownership not that enjoyable.

[BfranklynV6]

19 hours ago, The Pits said:

Anyone heard from Andy lately? Quiet around here without him.

Anyhoo, who wants a Cayman/Alpine rival at £60k?

Or would you prefer a jnr McLaren at £110k?

Assume amazing styling, Lotus dynamics, ICE engine and more daily useability applies equally to both.

 

I’ve said this before, but lotus should be able to make something in the £60k-£80k price range which could compete with the mclaren on performance. 

Lotus customers have already proven they are not too fussed about practicality/refinement.

How much more would it cost lotus to create a new exige with a supercharged V8 for ~550bhp, but otherwise relatively similar to the current platform. 

[tim_marra]

Not a chance IMHO. The customer you mention is not sufficient in number to sustain the company, and the margin in a 60-80K hand built car will be too little without massive volume.

[Ali tuck]

I think the problem at the 100k mark is,as others have mentioned ,the competition .

yes ,existing lotus owners ,at this price point, would probably stick with lotus- Trying to entice a new customer base at this price point- I’m not so sure.

[DarrylV8]

But would you spend £153K+ on a limited run Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA even with 533horses?

[The Pits]

I think the new Giulia GTA is terrific but not at that price. Especially when I can get a really nice used 510bhp QF, for well under £40k. Very frustrating we can't get the manual version but otherwise that's pretty much my ideal daily runner. If I had to choose one car that would probably be it. I hope the GTA is a success, fantastic to see Alfa making cars like that. I'm also a big admirer of the thunderous Jaguar XE Project 8, even more performance at a similar price but that has not been the success Jaguar were hoping for.

Getting back to selling Lotus past £100k it does seem like a tall order right now but again that's because there has been no attempt as yet to explain and persuade why anyone should spend that on a Lotus and what they'll get for it if they do.

As posted on another thread Toyota had a mountain to climb to compete with Mercedes and BMW when they introduced the Lexus LS400. It's a great automotive story actually. Toyota had to build a brand from scratch that could compete with long established and respected car brands, steeped in heritage and renouned for their engineering quality. It has often been said that the Mercedes Benz S class is consistently the best engineered car in the world. It was audacious to say the least to have a go at that at your first attempt. It cost Toyota a fortune but they laid the groundwork well in advance of the launch. A great international print campaign took ownership of something all the car makers were doing - continuous improvement. The japanese term for it - Kaizen - sounded more exotic, ritualistic and meticulous, they centred on that and boiled it down to: The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection. The engineers gave them great stories of real innovation to talk about. But above all they didn't limit their aim to catching-up with the europeans, a big enough ambition and task. Lead engineer Ichiro Suzuki was hellbent on beating them. In key target areas he succeeded. The late 80's Mercedes 420SE's cabin noise was measured at 63db at 62mph and 78 db at 124mph. The Lexus LS400 was significantly quieter inside at speed with 58db at 62mph and 73db at 124mph.

Incredible achievement that Lotus would be wise to study. In terms of image, association and reputation Lotus have a similar mountain to climb. McLaren took a huge stride forward as a road car maker with the F1. The Evija shows similar audacity and ambition which is great to see, I hope it does something similar for Lotus. But as it stands the people out there who are indifferent towards Lotus need to be convinced.

 

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Not sure the McLaren F1 is a good example. There was a 19 year gap between the launch of that road car and their next one (MP4-12C). Still at the current pace of brand new model launches at Hethel, you never know!

By the way, the original Lexus was always the poor man’s Merc. Still is for me. Don’t forget that back then the Japanese were trying to hoodwink American buyers into buying their cars primarily by changing/adding new brand names from Toyota, Nissan and Honda to something a bit less Japanesey and more upmarket sounding.

[Ali tuck]

3 hours ago, DarrylV8 said:

But would you spend £153K+ on a limited run Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA even with 533horses?

Nope- but that’s a different proposition ,limited numbers blah blah blah- probably people that buy that car already have a garage full of super car stuff.even still, it’s crazy money

[PAR]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

 Getting back to selling Lotus past £100k it does seem like a tall order right now but again that's because there has been no attempt as yet to explain and persuade why anyone should spend that on a Lotus

For Lotus there are 2 potential markets, the over 100k market equivalent which is where the Esprit used to be and the 50-60k market where you compete with more traditional mass volume brands.

In the first category, prices keep going up for the leaders Ferrari and Mclaren as price sensitivity of customers is low (people would rather pay 150-200 for a dream car than 110 for a super good car)

To sell cars at more than 100k, the best chances Lotus has are probably electric cars as they would be early there and can be differentiated. Having the Evija has a halo car makes sense for that and it would be new customers.

for the 50-60k segment, they need so be able to have the volumes and to make good margins at those prices. I am pretty sure the investment in the factory is to make this possible but they will need have the network too. Probably feasible selling 10k car a year (basically 10x the current Elise volumes and what was about the peak volume for the Elise ever)

In my opinion, like Volvo, they have to do things differently from what is out there rather than just better as better will always be too difficult to judge.

[The Pits]

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Not sure the McLaren F1 is a good example. There was a 19 year gap between the launch of that road car and their next one (MP4-12C). Still at the current pace of brand new model launches at Hethel, you never know!

By the way, the original Lexus was always the poor man’s Merc. Still is for me. Don’t forget that back then the Japanese were trying to hoodwink American buyers into buying their cars primarily by changing/adding new brand names from Toyota, Nissan and Honda to something a bit less Japanesey and more upmarket sounding.

You should know the full story. The engineering and innovation in that car was incredible. But your comments are a great example of the prejudice that exists about cars and how hard it is to overcome. It probably didn't matter that the LS400 beat the Merc 420SE in many areas. You thought Lexus and wen't straight to 'nah'. Many people feel much the same about Lotus compared to Porsche and it will take a lot to convince them otherwise. This is the power of a stong brand. Whether or not you've ever owned a Mercedes, whether or not the Merc is actually better than a Lexus, you have been led to believe in the superiority of the Merc. Lotus need to lead people to believe in their cars beyond places like TLF too now.

The point about the McLaren F1 was that it did wonders for the McLaren brand and changed perceptions by being first and foremost a road car. It was widely accepted as the greatest high-performance road car ever made at that time so it made a clear statement about McLaren being all about excellence, the ultimate in whatever they do. It wasn't much of a commercial success but it proved - and continued to prove for years after - that McLaren could make a better supercar than anyone else. Hell of a statement when Ferrari and others have been doing it for years. The F1 was very relevant to the 12C. There was massive anticipation for McLaren's next road car because of the F1, even after 15 years. Also 15 years later the F1 had become revered and respected even more than when it was launched. It's about brand building and changing perceptions about the McLaren brand from a maker of ultimate race cars to a maker of ultimate road cars. They did that with one car. Sadly for McLaren it's something that build quality and reliability issues seem to be undoing now. McLaren is a much more accessible brand than it was but it is losing some of the allure with that. Car companies do what they have to, to make money but too many brands are sold cheap with short term thinking. A brand is a promise and keeping your promises is how you build trust with your customers.

[Akajak]

 "whether or not the Merc is actually better than a Lexus, you have been led to believe in the superiority of the Merc".

 

i don't think that is entirely correct; even if people do believe the Lexus is the superior car they will still buy the Merc; i think it's the superiority of the brand rather than the actual car per se

[rallyesax]

That's exactly what he meant. 

[The Pits]

@LotusLeftLotusRight can speak for himself but I don't believe he thinks the Lexus is superior. But even if someone did, you have to consider what that brand preference is built upon. Whatever it is, Lotus will be needing plenty of it in the years ahead.

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

You’re missing part of the point. There was no Lexus brand. It was Toyota. Should Lotus attempt to go upmarket by creating a new brand, such as Loxus or something? The LS400 was a copy of another company’s product. I hope Lotus doesn’t just make another Cayman or 911. I want to see a new Lotus.

[DarrylV8]

A new Lotus using the Evija body shape, albeit on the brilliant Evora chassis but also showcasing Lotus engineering innovation; is what i'm hoping for.