Delco-Moraine ABS Deletion

[swindon_alan]

Probably not the right time to post this but a while back @ian29gte asked me to have a look for a non-ABS replacement master cylinder and servo for Delco equipped Stevens Esprits. I didn't pursue it too far but I think it is a possibility. Looking at the service manual that system looks like a right fookin' complex nightmare and has to be worth ditching?

[davevr6car]

Ditch this useless system and go servo with vacuum assist and you'll never look back.

[swindon_alan]

Got some parts info Dave?!?! Or a replacement thread somewhere? Suggestions very welcome...

[davevr6car]

I did this up grade years ago.......removed the ABS system.......removed the aircon pump and in its place is the earlier type vacuum pump from an SE. I'm running a nissan patrol servo and master cylinder. I also installed an audi vacuum accumulator with a couple of non return valves. The vacuum supply system also has a turbo bleed valve and vacuum gauge fitted so I can adjust the amount of vacuum assist. I have the S350 callipers and discs up front, S350 rear discs using the original brembo calliper as the handbrake and a set of 4 piston callipers for main rear brakes which are mounted on the S300 brackets. Its a great set up which changes the car completely. 

[swindon_alan]

Wow. Just wow and well done Dave. Do you have a parts list (models/years or OEM/manf. part numbers for the bits) or are you happy for me to liaise and put one together when I have time?

[Sparky]

Felix ( @fsrowsell)  replaced his with a Toyota MR2 cylinder and servo, I believe.  Worked well.  Felix, can you confirm?

[Vulcan Grey]

I agree taht getting rid of the system is probably best

I would use the master cylinder that @G_Reaper found, from a VW traansporter, and appears to be almost exactly like the 89SE Esprit stock master cylinder (which is excellent).

 

 

 

[fsrowsell]

On 2017-09-13 at 02:57, Sparky said:

Felix ( @fsrowsell)  replaced his with a Toyota MR2 cylinder and servo, I believe.  Worked well.  Felix, can you confirm?

Yes that's right Sparky.  I ditched the ABS and redid the brake pipes to the MR2 master.  I also routed a vacuum line from the Vac pump to the Servo.  Works great !!

[swindon_alan]

http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/absbrakes.html

Lotus Esprit ABS

In my opinion, the ABS on the 1991-1995 S4 Esprit is one of the worst systems that ever been installed on an automobile. I challenge anyone to find a single engineer that will admit without duress that they had any involvement in the design, development, or application of the system. If you enjoy a variable pedal height, inconsistent pedal pressure to caliper pressure ratio, unnecessary electrical load, noisy accumulator pump (carrying a spare liter of brake fluid), and not to mention excessive weight, then this is the system for you. If not, remove it and replace it with the brackets and master cylinder from a 1989-1990 Esprit.

I find it interesting that the system was used only on the federalized Esprit and not the European cars. I have no evidence, but I suspect that there may have been pressure from the US to add ABS (and the crappy airbag) to the cars to help comply with the safety waiver obtained to import the Esprit. I say this because I have a great respect for all the engineering and design skills at Lotus and I would be very disappointed to find out that it was actually their choice to include such a P.O.S. system to an otherwise excellent car.

As for the later Kelsey-Hayes 4-channel system, it is a great improvement. If you must have an ABS system, this is the one. However, for track use I wouldn't mind being able to shut it off.

[swindon_alan]

NOTE: Posts split out from :

 

[bogle]

Another eventual replacement for my 91 Esprit when my ABS decides to take a dump.  Only happy that John's only 60 miles away from me to do the work!

[Chillidoggy]

Reference vacuum pumps for Delco replacement, I've been looking at the Hella UP range. I've discovered that there's one listed as the top performer which needs no other assistance, called the UP5X. But after wasting many hours of company time, I've failed to come up with a manufacturer's part number, anywhere that actually supplies them, or which vehicle they might be fitted to.

This could be a job for @swindon_alan

The only info I could find was the attached graph.

[swindon_alan]

I think that you are getting a bit carried away with this Ian, The UP32 is on eBay but even though it is not as wonderful as the UP5x (aka a bottle of unicorn sperm) it is still very silly money:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hella-UP32-Vacuum-Pump-8GT009-570-321-/192253408124

I've got an old Dyson if you want it?

[Advantage]

Jonathan went through this a few years ago. I can't find the thread now, but did bookmark the components he used at the time. This is the link to the master cylinder he went with and this is the link to the brake balance valve. 

[Chillidoggy]

7 hours ago, swindon_alan said:

I think that you are getting a bit carried away with this Ian, The UP32 is on eBay but even though it is not as wonderful as the UP5x (aka a bottle of unicorn sperm) it is still very silly money:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hella-UP32-Vacuum-Pump-8GT009-570-321-/192253408124

I've got an old Dyson if you want it?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8TG-009-570-321-HELLA-Vacuum-Pump-brake-system/302467093328?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

It's the Hella part number that's the key to finding the damn things! I might phone Hella UK this morning to see what the P/N I for the UP5X.

 

5 hours ago, Advantage said:

Jonathan went through this a few years ago. I can't find the thread now, but did bookmark the components he used at the time. This is the link to the master cylinder he went with and this is the link to the brake balance valve. 

Ta. I'll have a look at that later.

[Chillidoggy]

Just spoken to Hella UK, the UP5X is not something they stock, or supply, and they couldn't give me a P/N, either. So, I've messaged Hella Germany.

[Chillidoggy]

Update on the Hella UP5X availability situation:-

Hella Germany have duly ignored my web-message, so I called Hella UK again, and managed to speak to someone who knew what I was talking about. He told me that as the UP5X is relatively new, as such it's probably only supplied to car manufacturers and if so, is unlikely to be available as an aftermarket item until the product warranty period has expired. He did point out that the UP32's performance was very similar, and suggested that as an alternative if the UP5X proves unavailable. He has also messaged his contact in Hella Germany to ask what the situation is with it, and will call me next week.

[Chillidoggy]

And the Teutonic response -

 

Sorry we do not offer this part in the UK market

Best Regards/Mit freudlichen Grussen,

 

I blame Brexit.

[Giniw]

I am sure they would ignore a French request as well you know.
If you want me to try something from here? (although I am not sure what was your question, I will need to read the previous posts more carefully )

[Chillidoggy]

Right, I've just had a call from Hella UK, to confirm that the UP5X is only available in the OEM market, not currently for aftermarket sales. This will change, and it will be available in the future, but yet to be determined.

UP32 is the next best.

[G_Reaper]

The Hella UP32 was used as OEM equipment on VWs, BMWs, Volvos, Fords, etc etc. easy to get hold of and was the market bench mark evidently until very recently. The Euroswitch vacuum switch I used allowed you to adjust the vacuum supply to get the best pedal feel for you the driver and save the vacuum pump by not having it running all the time.

 

Cheers Mike

[rizla603104]

What bracket is being used to mount all of this? As far as I can see there are several solutions for the master cylinder and servo - but no mention of how to actually get the pedal connected? Surely this is a great opportunity for someone to have 25 made using really sensible, easy to get hold of brake parts so none of this "chasing the hen's teeth" caper occurs again. Personally, I am sick and tired of my ABS unit and when someone lists a definitive set of braking parts that I can get - it will be changing. I nearly wrote myself off coming back from Brands in August last year having pressed the brake pedal and nothing happens - then pressing again and getting full beans. If someone who has achieved the change please list the parts - I'd be forever grateful.

[swindon_alan]

Hello Paul

Hang fire for a bit sir - we are exploring the possibilities of upgrading to a V8 setup but still nailing down the (mainstream cross referenced) components. I think that Ian also has an SE retro fit option as well?

[rizla603104]

I will assume a holding pattern. The purple nasty is in storage until March April - do you think there will be a list/kit before then? Apparently, PNM is looking into a kit - but haven't started the project as yet.

[swindon_alan]

I think Ian is pretty keen! I'm happy to spend time on the V8 version, shouldn't take too long but you could always go for the one above. All three (V8, MR2/VW, SE) need proper parts lists but Ian and I could drum them up between us.