Brexit

[scotty435]

12 hours ago, JG220 said:

Tide does seem to be turning back to reason

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/20/polls-stay-eu-yougov-brexit-peoples-vote?fbclid=IwAR1_I5xBZR-whHGrCgjCl1st36WvbQLjnq1fhUyr8h4ZULCnBitpdnRXhYM

 

Well it seems to be, even on one of the most brexit forums there are some of us trying to look at reason, let the tide come in, second vote it is 💪

[Chillidoggy]

Petition now up to 290,000.

[JG220]

On 23/12/2018 at 19:15, Buddsy said:

@JG220 @andydclements @scotty435 and other remainers

Chaps I really enjoy our discussions here and want to thank you for your input. I think healthy debate is really good and helps us all.

I do try to look at the remain arguments and that helps me form my own ideas.

Above all I just wanted to make sure you know although we have different opinions I respect your thoughts on the subject and would happily buy each and any of you a beer.

Im sure each and everyone of us only wants what's best for our country, our jobs and our family.

No ill feelings or bad will whether youre a leaver or remainer.

I just wanted to wish you all a happy Xmas and great new year whatever the new year brings.

We are all the good people who care. Its those Elites & politicians who are the buggers trying to drive us all apart.

buddsy

 

Completely agree with this sentiment. 

Brexit is a polarising issue and often one which stirs strong views, but that should never transcend respect and understanding. 

Also wish you a happy new year and look forward to a continued open, honest (and a little heated at times no doubt) debate on here. (y)

 

[C8RKH]

On 23/12/2018 at 19:15, Buddsy said:

@JG220 @andydclements @scotty435 and other remainers

Chaps I really enjoy our discussions here and want to thank you for your input. I think healthy debate is really good and helps us all.

I do try to look at the remain arguments and that helps me form my own ideas.

Above all I just wanted to make sure you know although we have different opinions I respect your thoughts on the subject and would happily buy each and any of you a beer.

Im sure each and everyone of us only wants what's best for our country, our jobs and our family.

No ill feelings or bad will whether youre a leaver or remainer.

I just wanted to wish you all a happy Xmas and great new year whatever the new year brings.

We are all the good people who care. Its those Elites & politicians who are the buggers trying to drive us all apart.

buddsy

 

What a superb post. Thanks and fully agree.

[ChrisJ]

It only shows by default petitions for this government.

https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions?parliament=1&state=published

 

[Kimbers]

Nice to see France doesn't want people using their democratic right to protest! Best way to stop this? Make it so you have to "Be Approved" to protest! Go go EU democracy!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46788751

[jonwat]

7 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

Nice to see France doesn't want people using their democratic right to protest!

Macron has already said he won't give France a referendum because he knows they'll vote out. Now that's democracy for you.

[Barrykearley]

Hope the burn the government out of the office buildings 

[Kimbers]

Wowsa

 

[JG220]

That chart is a bit  misleading.

The referendum vote is split in two. 

I think the advantage of a no deal Brexit is that at least it would provide some certainty. The issues will move to managing the impact, which at least will change the current climate. I don’t think it will happen though.

If no deal doesn’t or can’t happen then we need a delay or ideally (in my view) no Brexit at all. 

[PaulCP]

The majority of these polls are pointless. They generally don’t cover a sufficient number of people from a reasonable cross section of individuals across the U.K.

Opinion polls that don’t state their sources and the cross section of people interviewed are not opinion polls worth publishing. Then of course you have the questions which are often posed in a way that encourages the individuals to give the required answer.

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Yes that's a proper Horlicks of a poll. Too many options to consider. Valid point on the second referendum split. If you add those two together (purple and green), you get about 32%, compared to 29% Leave without a deal (red).

It's also a poll on "What should happen next if MPs reject deal". That includes General Election (blue, 11%). In that event where would these 11% cast their votes after a General Election with regards to Brexit? What about those 13%  (orange) who answered "try for a better deal before March"? If that doesn't happen, how would they then potentially vote? Add these all to the 15% "Don't knows" (black) and you get 39% of the poll who haven't seemingly expressed a preference to have a second referendum or not!

So yeah: pretty meaningless.

[C8RKH]

Ah,  but you can't add referendum on deal v no deal and deal v staying - sorry but they are two quite different things - one is about leaving, the other is about staying or leaving. So that's misleading.

You can add leave with no deal and referendum on deal or no deal (as they are both leave) and you get a clear winner at over 40%. Interestingly as has been remarked elsewhere, but largely ignored by the press, it does seem that the vote on leave is hardening (upwards swing for red (leave regardless) and purple deal v no deal but still leave) ) is steeper than than the one for green (essentially rerun the original vote).

Leave with no deal is an upswing whilst trying to get a better deal is a down swing - again an indication that people are hardening to, or losing faith in, the EU's ability to change the deal so let's just get on and go.

Also the steep decline for a General Election i think is bad news for Labour as people wake up to the fact that they may get JC as Prime Minister - oh shit we all shout....

One thing that Poll does show is what we suspected that the MPs are actually quite a bit out of line with general public sentiment as expressed in that Poll by the Brexit biased BBC.....  If this does go to ratshit and we end up staying in I really do believe there will be one hell of a backlash against the MPs who got us there. Cables legacy for the Libdems will be years in the wilderness as an insignificant minor irritation of a party and labour as well as the Tories will implode. So that just leaves the SNP to take over Westminster and make us all Scottish and then christ, that's all well and truly knackered if you look at what's happened to our education and attainment, policing, taxes, local authorities and health service up here. But at least my current colleagues in Englandshire will be forced to pay the same high taxes i need to pay in Scotland and we'll have free prescriptions, free personal care, and free degrees before we bankrupt ourselves. Freedom! You cannae tak' it away!

[JG220]

58 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

One thing that Poll does show is what we suspected that the MPs are actually quite a bit out of line with general public sentiment

I don't think that poll shows anything at all. I do agree though that generally the mood of the public isn't proportionally represented in Parliament. But that is nothing new. 

58 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Brexit biased BBC..... 

I'd say it was the opposite, the BBC is marginally anti-brexit. 

[pete]

2 minutes ago, JG220 said:

I don't think that poll shows anything at all. I do agree though that generally the mood of the public isn't proportionally represented in Parliament. But that is nothing new. 

I'd say it was the opposite, the BBC is marginally anti-brexit. 

I think that is what he meant

[Barrykearley]

What a load of pishe. Who thinks these daft questions up?

new referendum question has been leaked on the internet.

should we remain or remain a member of the eu ?

1/ yes

2/ yeah

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Well there's one aspect of Brexit I think both sides of the argument can agree on: these two panto dames should be sent into permanent exile on 29 March.

Kevin Maguire and Andrew Pierce: the Bert and Ernie of journalism.

I can't remember the last time I switched on the telly at breakfast, without seeing these two idiots gurning back at me.

I don't think anyone has benefitted more from Brexit than these latter day Chuckle Brothers.

[CHANGES]

 

 

[JG220]

Quite a lot of what Lammy said this week resonates with me. I agree with the vast majority : The lies, the swindle, the hoarding of power, the inability of parliament to be fit for purpose. Where it falls down a bit is in its attribution of the Brexit vote to the poorer in society. I just don't think that's right. I think that that the 'take back control' (indeed a deluded fantasy) is the most common argument the 'older generations'  put forward when I speak to them. I think the split isn't one of wealth of social standing, but it is one of generation. 

This is just about perfect though (from about ab month ago):

 

[scotty435]

2 hours ago, JG220 said:

Quite a lot of what Lammy said this week resonates with me. I agree with the vast majority : The lies, the swindle, the hoarding of power, the inability of parliament to be fit for purpose. Where it falls down a bit is in its attribution of the Brexit vote to the poorer in society. I just don't think that's right. I think that that the 'take back control' (indeed a deluded fantasy) is the most common argument the 'older generations'  put forward when I speak to them. I think the split isn't one of wealth of social standing, but it is one of generation. 

This is just about perfect though (from about ab month ago):

 

Two very good clips from one of the most respected MPs in parliament and like you resonates with me and surely with most grounded people in the UK, if David Lammy or Chuka umunna where leading the opposition instead of the left wing politician that went out of fashion in the 70s there would be a true alternative to this terrible situation we are now in, what with Corbyn and Rees Mogg who’s political views died in the 18th century it’s not the older generation such as my self and the most of the members of this forum that’s it’s going to affect, its people like my daughter who lives and works in Spain and studied for 4years for a degree to be given the opportunity to work in the club that’s called the EU.

 

[USAndretti42]

Interesting article in the Grauniad - "I'm a remainer so why do I feel more and more sympathy for leavers?"

[Barrykearley]

This telegraph article is a good one - hope mr lammy didn’t choke on it.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10537773/Britain-will-become-biggest-economy-in-Europe.html

 

 

[SFO]

1 hour ago, Barrykearley said:

This telegraph article is a good one - hope mr lammy didn’t choke on it.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10537773/Britain-will-become-biggest-economy-in-Europe.html

 

 

From 2013, before Brexit!

[Andyww]

13 hours ago, scotty435 said:

Two very good clips from one of the most respected MPs in parliament 

Are you referring to David Lammy here? I had to read this a few times but appears so. Good grief the mans a disgrace. He is from the Diane Abbott school of thinking. He preaches positive discrimination and divisive identity politics of the worst kind. He said shoplifters should target larger stores rather than small ones amongst other ridiculous statements.

[pete]

Reminds me of modern day preacher