Formula One

[exeterjeep]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

A 2.9g sudden deceleration. I'm sorry but that penalty for that offence which could have taken Lewis out totally is an appalling injustice.

I do think that Massi's position is becoming untenable. He's been awful.

OMG agree with @C8RKH again. The chats between him and the teams is really strange, if he is in charge then he should say what is going to happen, not need to get agreement from RB. Ii seems that they FIA/F1 circus have been too soft on Max this season, perhaps they really want RB to win.

Not surprised Toto threw down his headphones etc, think i if it had been me, gone over to the RB pit wall and wacked Horner.

[PaulCP]

Verstappen is undoubtably a talented driver, but his comments in this piece do give a good insight of his views into his style of racing.

Sorry Max, if you believe all of that then you are better suited to Stock Car racing. F1 is too fast and dangerous for kamikaze drivers!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59542219

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Frickin_idiot said:

I agree that the 10 second penalty has effectively not rendered Max with any kind of punishment.

And the problem I have with that is that it serves as no incentive for him to change, or stop his "optimistic" moves. So many of his "spectacular" moves totally rely upon the co-operation (?) of the driver he is over taking. They co-operate by getting out of the way as they know otherwise their race will be over.  Some may say spectacular, I just find it frustrating that one driver seems to be allowed to drive in this manner.

That brake check on Hamilton could have been really nasty if he had not reacted as quickly as he did and he could have gone under Max's car.  The intent for me was there in how Max positioned his car in the centre of the track, normally, when a driver is giving back a position the move is clear. 

It's like the picture below. Look how Max has made no effort to go for the Apex here on this tight left then right hander, look at his front wheels, he is basically cutting the right corner and cutting right across Lewis.  I don't find this type of driving "exciting", I just get frustrated with Max continually over stepping the mark (and track limits) and getting away with it and being lauded for his "style".  It's not dodgems or touring cars, I want to see a hard, fierce, but fair fight of the best drivers in the world. The fact that Lewis has beaten him on over takes to me proves he is the better driver as he has to deal with the recklessness and unpredictability of a driver who really is so arrogant he just doesn't give a shit re the consequences.  I'd have much more respect for Max if he wins "clean".

 

 

Anyways, it is what it is.

[Bibs]

It's in Max's interest that neither of them finish the final race. Just sayin'! 

From his performance yesterday and in agreement with Paul's post, it does appear he's willing to crash to ensure his win, a very dirty driver who won't be remembered well for these tactics.

[exeterjeep]

2 minutes ago, Bibs said:

who won't be remembered

who? Forgotten him already.... until next week.

[Techyd]

1 minute ago, C8RKH said:

It's like the picture below. Look how Max has made no effort to go for the Apex here on this tight left then right hander, look at his front wheels, he is basically cutting the right corner and cutting right across Lewis.  I don't find this type of driving "exciting", I just get frustrated with Max continually over stepping the mark (and track limits) and getting away with it and being lauded for his "style".  It's not dodgems or touring cars, I want to see a hard, fierce, but fair fight of the best drivers in the world.

Max had lost control of his vehicle at this point, and was catching the rear - he was desperate basically and just wasn't going to yield, when he should have.  This earned him a five second penalty I think??

In my opinion, Max needs to stop driving like he's in the late eighties basically; but presumably that's the approach he's gotten from his father.

7 minutes ago, exeterjeep said:

he chats between him and the teams is really strange, if he is in charge then he should say what is going to happen, not need to get agreement from RB. Ii seems that they FIA/F1 circus have been too soft on Max this season, perhaps they really want RB to win

I think the negotiation we heard is because he doesn't have the absolute authority to impose the sanction - that's the racing stewards job.  However he can get involved prior to them in order to facilitate resolution of incidents.  Here, under the red flags, I think he was trying to give RB an opportunity to take a lesser penalty.

The Stewards would have issued a minimum of 5 second penalty, which would be enforced for the restart - and this would put him firmly at the back of the grid, given that they were all within a few hundred metres of each other at this point in the race.

So actually, I think he's potentially interfered here as race director to and keep the race and championship alive as it were; that's why RB very quickly accepted it.  They knew if would get referred to the Stewards if they did not.

[PaulCP]

I also find this comment from ‘Baby Spice’ confirms the RB approach of winning at any cost. 

FIA, get the rules defined properly before this deranged driver kills someone!

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said he felt the penalty was "harsh", adding: "Is he [Verstappen] solely to blame if two drivers run off track?"

 

 

 

 

[jep]

14 minutes ago, Bibs said:

very dirty driver who won't be remembered well for these tactics.

Which is why Michael Schumacher never makes my 'Top 10' drivers of all time. Likewise, Senna, though Ayrton probably still makes the cut but below gents like Moss, Fangio, Clark, Hamilton. 

How you win does matter. I'd take Jack Nicklaus over Tiger Woods....Palmer, Watson, Player too.

Justin

 

[exeterjeep]

8 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said he felt the penalty was "harsh", adding: "Is he [Verstappen] solely to blame if two drivers run off track?"

Just goes to show the win at all costs mentality. Should be banned to the stands like they can do with football managers

 

2 minutes ago, jep said:

Which is why Michael Schumacher never makes my 'Top 10' drivers of all

Agree.

[C8RKH]

17 minutes ago, Techyd said:

Max had lost control of his vehicle at this point

He'd lost control because he refused to accept he was "beaten" into the corner. Some people call it "late braking" but at what point does late braking really become being out of control and reckless. Watch this video here around 1.06 and it was clear that Lewis was able to retain control but yet again Max was NEVER going to make the corner with Lewis outside of him. You can slow the speed down to 0.5x and you can see Max's driving. No chance of staying on the track.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.verstappen-over-the-limit-for-sure-in-saudi-arabian-gp-says-race-winner.6G0mz2OrAQDJVEVOP55P8R.html

22 minutes ago, Techyd said:

Here, under the red flags, I think he was trying to give RB an opportunity to take a lesser penalty.

The Stewards would have issued a minimum of 5 second penalty, which would be enforced for the restart - and this would put him firmly at the back of the grid, given that they were all within a few hundred metres of each other at this point in the race.

So actually, I think he's potentially interfered here as race director to and keep the race and championship alive as it were; that's why RB very quickly accepted it.  They knew if would get referred to the Stewards if they did not.

And for me this is why his position is untenable, Max should have been served the 5 second penalty - the rules are the rules - another example of Max and RB being given special treatment.  And we wonder why Horner and Max behave how they do.

[TdM]

Max was never going to make that corner, it was another divebomb to maintain position. The problem for the stewards is now that, because they didn't penalise him before he feels every right to do it. If they give him a penalty it's going to be so small that it makes little difference to him so he might as well chance his arm, knowing that there is effectively no negative impact.

 

The negotiation is just letting him off again basically. If it's worthy of a penalty, they need to give him a penalty. The 10 second penalty for the crash was pointless because it doesn't affect him, he'll shrug and carry on.

 

Also, with the crash, whilst there was a little bit of potential gamesmanship with the DRS line, confusion as well, my issue is that if you watch Hamilton's onboard Max is in the middle of the road in a narrow area but more importantly, he's weaving. It's not huge but he's nudging left and right constantly (you can see the steering wheel inputs as well on Max's onboard). Those little movements are how you predict what another driver is going to do, a bit like knowing a driver wants to change lanes before they turn an indicator on on the motorway because of slight changes in lane positioning. It's the same thing.

If Max is weaving like that, Lewis has no idea which way to go or what Max is going to do, I believe this is deliberate by Max to slow Lewis down and get him as off line as possible. Max intended to get Lewis to go past slowly and off line and then stand on the throttle, get DRS dive back past him and then use DRS to pull away. The dab of the brake and then throttle was part of that plan, it was a stupid a reckless way of driving. This is exactly the sort of thing the stewards are supposed to pick up on and deal with so that it doesn't happen again as it's dangerous. They didn't do so, they gave a lenient penalty.

 

There needs to be an overhaul in stewarding in F1. I fear the next race will be Max doing whatever he wants to try to keep Lewis from winning whilst everyone else tries to obey the rules. Shameful.

[Techyd]

10 minutes ago, TdM said:

If Max is weaving like that, Lewis has no idea which way to go or what Max is going to do, I believe this is deliberate by Max to slow Lewis down and get him as off line as possible. Max intended to get Lewis to go past slowly and off line and then stand on the throttle, get DRS dive back past him and then use DRS to pull away. The dab of the brake and then throttle was part of that plan, it was a stupid a reckless way of driving. This is exactly the sort of thing the stewards are supposed to pick up on and deal with so that it doesn't happen again as it's dangerous. They didn't do so, they gave a lenient penalty.

100% agree

I don't know why the Stewards were not stepping in - but instead letting the race directory chat with the teams.  At the very least, with the availability of telemetry from Maxs car, frankly, I'd be disqualifying him from the race.

If I were Lewis in that position, I'd also have been considering unsighted debris / accident up ahead as well.

[Bibs]

They said in the commentary that he may have thought it was a yellow or VSC as to why Max had slowed down. 

[C8RKH]

Seems a lot of the "comments" sections in the press are all, in the main, giving Max a hard time for his driving.  He's always had the "popular" vote but maybe, possibly, the tide is turning. I think if he "wins" through crashing I think he'll be in a difficult position next year and doubt any driver will yield much to him as he tries to defend his WDC crown.

[TdM]

He still got official driver of the day though!

[C8RKH]

Yup, but I think @PaulCP addressed that point earlier.

[exeterjeep]

31 minutes ago, TdM said:

He still got official driver of the day though!

Also got the most boos at the end.

Surely those who do not support either Max or Lewis can see the issue with Max's poor driving

[TdM]

There's a lot of different 'fans' out there unfortunately. It's not just Max fans that argue for his driving style.

I feel that a lot of younger fans (probably those who don't/can't drive!) think that the moves are 'fair' and 'exciting'. Things like lunging up the inside with no hope of stopping are considered OK because people misunderstand the 'car ahead' argument. They don't consider if the car ahead has made any attempt to make the corner as long as they were ahead. Seems that Horner has the same way of looking at it.

I also think there's a lot of people who are quite new to the sport coming off the back of drive to survive and other marketing who don't really understand the racing. What seems obvious to us who have been watching this for many many years and have experience in car dynamics and driver behavior may not seem obvious to someone who has just switched on for the drama. 

[exeterjeep]

Looking through the HYS comments on the BBC website https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59542219

Most seem to agree with the above points about Max. But it is an English web page for an English driver.

Had a look at the RBR facebook page for a few minutes, and there seems to be more people blaming Lewis for everything....

[Cdm2018]

I am not a huge F1 fan but watch the races over the years 

I wonder in this world of conspiracy has the outcomes of the last few races been gearing up to have this final race as a winner takes all ?

it’s seemingly all the strange rules and penalties being applied looks like it engineering this final big tv audience grabbing event ? 

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Cdm2018 said:

it’s seemingly all the strange rules and penalties being applied looks like it engineering this final big tv audience grabbing event ? 

This is my criticism of Massi and why I believe his position is becoming untenable. He "stepped" in and "offered" a deal to Red Bull to keep Max in contention, when actually Max should have been given a 5 second penalty on the restart which would have effectively put him at the back of the field. Max would then have had to fight his way through to around 5-7th place to be in with a running chance of winning the WDC in Abu Dhabi.  This is what should HAVE happened if the rules were followed....

But instead they did a deal to keep Max in the race for the WDC.

F1 is fast losing it's credibility as an "honest" sport with the sports rules being totally discarded.  Take the Brazil issue and the 1st/2nd corners - Max says but Lewis didn't make the corner either on both counts - well, how the fook can you make the corner when the guy up the inside refuses to make any attempt to make the corner and so you either (a) crash into them and lose everything or (b) go off track and steer even further asway to avoid contact. Max's style is basically just to ramrod anyone in his way, or trying to over take him, off the track and then basically use a childish defence of "he went off the track too" when he knew there was no other option.

This is not racing, this is just glorified dodgems.

If you look at the post race sit down interviews. Max is basically saying "fook you all, that's how I race, stop giving me a hard time and making an issue out of it" and Lewis is saying "what are we supposed to do, as if we try to race him he just punts us off track".

The sport is just becoming a bit of a farce right now, and how Verstappen was not disqualified for accelerating, braking, accelerating, whilst weaving then brake checking Lewis is beyond me. They have the all the data to prove this. If I was lewis I'd have been thinking "what the fook is this crazy shit doing, he's just going to punt me off". You can see again in the post race interviews how bemused lewis is with it all.

[pete]

Having supported verstappen in the past I have to say Sunday was not acceptable at all. If that had been karting he would have been black flagged. His driving was like a computer game where there are no consequences for driving like that. All season he has tended to push the boundaries more each race, ,just like a child would,and each time the stewards have failed to punish him. His parents(i.e his dad,Horner and Marko) have also failed to discipline him. Track design has apart to play in all this,kerbs were introduced and now all drivers ignore them, gravel traps were replaced with smooth tarmac and appear to some to have become part of the track, rules have become overcomplicated and why aren't ex drivers more involved in the stewarding.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Also not mentioned on here, but no way is that a track befitting of F1. Every impact seemed to end up with some sort of safety car or even a red flag. Ruined the race for me, I don’t care what the media say.

[pete]

Definitely very dangerous.lap average was 158 mph on a street circuit

[Cdm2018]

All comments said and done above 

betcha we are all going to be glued to the tv next week ? 🏎🏎🏎🏎