Cost of living!

[PaulCP]

@peteyou are absolutely correct. A CEO I worked for 30 years ago gave a speech in a large event at the IOD where he stressed the necessity the businesses need to establish what is the norm for their business, both economically and market wise, plan for the norm and not regard the previous 5 years as the norm since peaks & troughs are a matter of life. He went on to say that he has never and will never accept the excuse for non performing that a drop in business is due to market conditions when businesses have planned for exceptional good times to be the norm.

Business at the time was going through a very good spell and his speech was ridiculed by the gathered masses afterwards in the bar  with some saying that he was “off his head”

A few years later the good times came to a halt, recession took over and he was proved correct after many businesses went bust after investing heavily for a market that could never continue at that rate. Many business directors then blamed ‘market conditions’ for the reason of their failure.

@C8RKHit was the guys 1st post so clearly politically motivated

[C8RKH]

I also totally agree with you @pete. Companies have always been run to make a profit, and put something by for the future. It all started getting "greedy" in the late 90's when companies suddenly decided to start to "empty the pot of cash" that was the Pension Scheme.  I'll just take half of it now, as it will be the new CEO/CFO's problem long after I have gone to fix and I'll get my bonus and keep my shareholders happy!  Twats!  That's what they were.

@PaulCP - yup totally agree. I was always taught that "Revenue was vanity, Profit was Sanity" and with profit you built forward a buffer for the tough times, whether in business, or, just as importantly your private life.

[C8RKH]

5 hours ago, LotusFella said:

I totally agree apart from said Good times.  the world in my view has lurched from one crisis to another since 2001 world trade centre crash.  So in summary we've been f**cked over by the "Global controlling party" for 21 years!  Oh and I fortunately did save as I'm such a tight arse! 😂 and got some solar panels so currently my elecy bill is not too bad.

I totally disagree I am afraid.  Generally, as quoted before from Macmillan, people had never had it so good and the boom in consumer spending over that 21 years certainly backs it up.  Yes, the financial crises in 2008 hurt some people, but it was quickly forgotten and off we went again, spending, spending spending.

I don't buy these conspiracy theories re the GCP, I think it's just used by people as a lazy excuse for the fact that they, and everyone else around them, have voted in shitty crappy politicians to feed from the gravy trough based on the fact that they largely voted for the Party their parents voted for.  I think some people, possibly the majority, really are that thick. In fact their thickness is only slightly beaten by those who "can't be arsed to vote" then have the brass neck to "complain like an unpaid whore" about their benefits, the state of the nation, etc.  

Glad you got your solar panels, you do realise that everyone else is paying a subsidy on their "elecy" bill for you to enjoy them don't you. You've just moved the cost on.  However, I bet you're not getting as much "free" energy as you thought and don't whinge like a whore when your inverter goes pop and you need a new one. All part of the ownership experience.  Please tell me you were smart enough to think ahead and install battery storage or similar to ensure you got the maximum benefit from your investment, as opposed to just doing a half arsed half a job on the PV panels only.

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, PaulCP said:

@C8RKHit was the guys 1st post so clearly politically motivated

Sadly yes, the avatar picture tells you all you need to know. Likely an anti-capitalist avenger signing up and posting on a forum dedicated to people who buy and play with expensive toy cars because they can. I bet he/she/they/them/it did a degree in marketing and that's how he/she/they/them/it decided that this was THE forum to get their message across to a sympathetic audience.

No offence meant to anyone, especially the OP, but it's like posting on a vegan website your views on how everyone needs to eat more meat.

 

[LotusFella]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

I totally disagree I am afraid.  Generally, as quoted before from Macmillan, people had never had it so good and the boom in consumer spending over that 21 years certainly backs it up.  Yes, the financial crises in 2008 hurt some people, but it was quickly forgotten and off we went again, spending, spending spending.

I don't buy these conspiracy theories re the GCP, I think it's just used by people as a lazy excuse for the fact that they, and everyone else around them, have voted in shitty crappy politicians to feed from the gravy trough based on the fact that they largely voted for the Party their parents voted for.  I think some people, possibly the majority, really are that thick. In fact their thickness is only slightly beaten by those who "can't be arsed to vote" then have the brass neck to "complain like an unpaid whore" about their benefits, the state of the nation, etc.  

Glad you got your solar panels, you do realise that everyone else is paying a subsidy on their "elecy" bill for you to enjoy them don't you. You've just moved the cost on.  However, I bet you're not getting as much "free" energy as you thought and don't whinge like a whore when your inverter goes pop and you need a new one. All part of the ownership experience.  Please tell me you were smart enough to think ahead and install battery storage or similar to ensure you got the maximum benefit from your investment, as opposed to just doing a half arsed half a job on the PV panels only.

wow what's with the attack?

[Bibs]

Agreed - @C8RKH, please be more civil. There's no need for the tone of that post at all, very out of order.

[Barrykearley]

I’d opt for the crisis being just one of those things. It’s being whipped into a huge crisis by the media for sure.

let’s all be honest - standards and expectations of living have gone through the roof. Yet kids are still going to bed hungry. 
 

there’s some very unfair expectations on some working people - and some serious lack of responsibility on others.

I’d like to think it will get better - but that’s probably unlikely - the lack of responsibility is also joined with the lack of empathy in many. 
 

peace to all

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, Bibs said:

Agreed - @C8RKH, please be more civil. There's no need for the tone 

The tone can be impacted by state of mind from the person reading it. We've all for instance misread or sent emails where the tone was misread.

My sarcasm was in response to the tone I read from the post I reacted to, which was one of smugness. I was merely pointing out (a) how it offended me as like every bill payer a proportion of my bill was subsidising it. (b) how just having cheaper elecy at the time of use was a crap justification to base said smugness on as you needed to look at install cost, efficiency received versus efficiency promised, cost of repairs/failures, and total life costs. Same argument as used against EVs were you get mugged off by people telling you how cheap it is to charge their battery whilst conveniently not factoring in the typical 25-40% increase in purchase price that means, according to Which? It can take 10 years to break even on the EV which is never as very few people keep a car for longer than 4.  Same with PV, payback is often 15-20 years.

 

 

[Frickin_idiot]

10 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

The comments re the PV's came across to me as smarmy/smug so I reacted to that. I am assuming it is the last paragraph that has upset people.

 

The fact is EVERYONE else is paying for the FIT subsidies through their energy bill- that's a fact.

Most installs DO NOT deliver the projected energy output. That's a fact.

The total cost of ownership (like with EVs) is often misquoted to make PVs appear better value than they are. That's a fact.

And without storage, you get a sub optimal solution. Again a fact 

So I was not happy with the "smug" I'm alright Jack tone, so I react and get panned and that's that?  Lovely. Yes maybe I could have been less sarcastic but so could have been the poster I responded to.

 

Some good points there. With the recent almost vertical energy price increases and our fairly heavy consumption, I’ve considered looking at solar but I just don’t “feel” that I’m getting the correct information. 

[exeterjeep]

And even higher gas prices in Europe and then the impact in UK.

Gas prices soar as Russia cuts German supply

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62318376

Gas prices have soared after Russia further cut gas supplies to Germany and other central European countries after threatening to earlier this week.

European gas prices rose 9%, trading close to its earlier all-time high after Russia invaded Ukraine.

 

[C8RKH]

Hire gas proces is great news for UKPLC right now as we are transporting gas to Europe at almost double the usual flow rate. Ker-ching Ker-ching lol.....

[phil flash]

45 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Hire gas proces is great news for UKPLC right now as we are transporting gas to Europe at almost double the usual flow rate. Ker-ching Ker-ching lol.....

Who are you kidding? There is no such thing as UKPLC. All energy companies are privatley owned by various consortium and their profits go to shareholders. Many power stations are Combined Cycle Gas Turbines that burn gas so expect a hike in electricity prices as well as the gas prices charged to UK customers.

I've worked as Consultant Engineer to National Grid Gas and it's not a coincidence that employees call it National Greed.

[Bibs]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62330190

British (!) Gas owner declares £1.34bn PROFIT in six months, Shell declare £11bn PROFIT in 3 months, all due to higher prices. 

How come the govt can't legislate the margins they make? While bills are soaring through the roof, the industry is seeming to use it as a licence to empty our wallets?

[Dan E]

@Bibs my son asked me when it was in the 40 degree range the other week, "does bibs fly his drone over his bed at night!" I suggested no, but thinking about it.................?.

 

 

[C8RKH]

19 hours ago, phil flash said:

Who are you kidding? There is no such thing as UKPLC. All energy companies are privatley owned by various consortium and their profits go to shareholders. Many power stations are Combined Cycle Gas Turbines that burn gas so expect a hike in electricity prices as well as the gas prices charged to UK customers.

I've worked as Consultant Engineer to National Grid Gas and it's not a coincidence that employees call it National Greed.

Oh dear 

UkPLC is a generic term that is associated with the commercial interests of the whole of the UK including the Government. And government takes a huge amount of tax income still when we export carbon fuels extracted from the UK fields.

 Energy companies and Utilities pay taxes on profits. Utilities are forced to plough hundreds of millions into social schemes etc etc.

My point was about the extraction and export of UK Gas which is very much a good earner for the UK.  If you wanna go off on one stick to the topic.

It seems that whilst you are very happy to attack National Greed, as you put it, you're also happy to fill your own greed boots from their coffers. A bit hypocritic don't you think?

Take a breath Phil I'd hate you to have a heart attack!

[C8RKH]

56 minutes ago, Bibs said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62330190

British (!) Gas owner declares £1.34bn PROFIT in six months, Shell declare £11bn PROFIT in 3 months, all due to higher prices. 

How come the govt can't legislate the margins they make? While bills are soaring through the roof, the industry is seeming to use it as a licence to empty our wallets?

Because carbon fuels are traded in dollars globally in a global not local market. They can legislate taxes on profits including windfall taxes. I believe the recently announced windfall tax on energy companies has been quietly dropped. I need to confirm that.

However the energy companies have just paid over £10bn to lease the seabed rights for the next generation of offshore wind farms. £8bn+ went direct to the Treasury. That cost is before they pour any concrete, build any wind turbines etc . So how do you think they would be able to afford that if we removed all their profit?

[Bibs]

Profit is the figure after expenses etc. I'm sure that £10bn appears on their balance sheets between them to reduce their tax burden and the figures quoted would have been even higher without it. 

Wind farms and solar are a white elephant anyway, we're importing electricity on the sunniest day of the year in UKplc and I'm sure there was enough of a breeze over our seas still! We've all been paying their outfits our 'green levy' for years and the results speak for themselves in this instance IMO. 

 

[C8RKH]

No Bibs, you can't put something you don't own on your balance sheet as an asset!

It's an operating cost so yes, the cost comes off and is therefore not taxed, but in effect the cost IS A tax paid direct to the Treasury.

Building a windfarm say has huge upfront costs. You need to take on a massive amount of debt. That debt has a service cost (opex) and you need to generate cash (profit) to service the debt. Oh, and the cost to service that debt has doubled in the last year. Oh and the people who work for them want a pay rise. The contractors are upping their rates and the materials they use have gone through the roof cost wise. You know, the same issues and problems everyone is dealing with.

Windfarms and solar may be white elephants but it is the public and politicians who are setting the agenda, driving the investments etc. Christ, even you have been suckered into an EV 😜

I'm amazed that people are just slagging off without really understanding the basics around how this stuff works.

Have a good luck at your lecy bill. It should breakdown your full bill to evidence where the money goes, by law your supplier needs to do that.

I'm not defending the profits they make, but people need to understand the full picture rather than cherry picking what they want to whinge about 

[march]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

That debt has a service cost (opex) and you need to generate cash (profit) to service the debt.

Surely profit is after you have serviced any debt - I always thought profit was what was left in the pot after all outgoings have been paid. Genuine query as I am just a poor dim-witted farmer. Also are they claiming pre or post tax profits?

profit

noun

 

1. 1.

   a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

Edited July 28, 2022 by march

[C8RKH]

Sky News: Why we should want Shell and Centrica to keep making money.

https://news.sky.com/story/why-we-should-want-shell-and-centrica-to-keep-making-money-12660627

[C8RKH]

11 minutes ago, march said:

Surely profit is after you have serviced any debt - I always thought profit was what was left in the pot after all outgoings have been paid. Genuine query as I am just a poor dim-witted farmer. Also are they claiming pre or post tax profits?

profit

noun

 

1. 1.

   a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

Yes it is, but you need to get cash in to service the debt every day, week, month.  Otherwise when you go to the ATM the machine says no.

The point being made is that if you don't have profitable companies, they can't raise the debt or service it so they fail. You wouldn't lend your own money to someone you knew never had money.

Also many of the energy and utilities have pension funds as shareholders, so those profits drive dividends those dividends fuel your pension.

We can play a shitey wee game of point versus point or people could educate themselves and look at the full picture, rather than just one small part of it.  The problem is that people spout lefty bollock soundbites rather than a considered pov.

 

[exeterjeep]

Most chief accountants have ways to adjust the figures,  I know this from my time at RR, if he wanted to he could reduce profits, reduce losses etc all to achieve what they wanted to report to the board/accountants etc.

[scotty435]

5 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Oh dear 

UkPLC is a generic term that is associated with the commercial interests of the whole of the UK including the Government. And government takes a huge amount of tax income still when we export carbon fuels extracted from the UK fields.

 Energy companies and Utilities pay taxes on profits. Utilities are forced to plough hundreds of millions into social schemes etc etc.

My point was about the extraction and export of UK Gas which is very much a good earner for the UK.  If you wanna go off on one stick to the topic.

It seems that whilst you are very happy to attack National Greed, as you put it, you're also happy to fill your own greed boots from their coffers. A bit hypocritic don't you think?

Take a breath Phil I'd hate you to have a heart attack!

Give it a rest how rude can a individual be. Phil as the right to reply on this platform and yes have a sensible debate. Take a breath or have a heart attack really?

[C8RKH]

9 hours ago, scotty435 said:

Give it a rest how rude can a individual be. Phil as the right to reply on this platform and yes have a sensible debate. Take a breath or have a heart attack really?

Wow. I never wished him a heart attack - in fact the opposite. Can't you recognise a tongue in cheek comment!

So Phil's tone was acceptable as part of a debate - I didn't think it was as it was quite disrepectful to many of the people I know who work tirelessly in utilities, and yes in National Grid, to make sure when YOU and everyone else gets up in the morning can boil a kettle and have a brew.

It stank of a facitious response and attitude to an industry that seems to fund his standard of living.

Seems like a bit of double standards going on.

It's really trendy at the moment to jump on the bandwagon and just slag off energy and utility companies. Yes they are not perfect. But the tone directed against them is awful - try to point out the issues with the NHS, Teachers etc in the same tone and the same people slam you down.

My point was and is simple. A strong energy and utilities sector improves everyones life in the UK. It underpins our resilience as a country. It contributes billions in taxes and social programmes (unlike some tech companies for instance). It underpins the investments for many peoples pensions + pension companies are some of the biggest E&U ishareholders.They spend billions with UK manufacturers and suppliers etc 

Finally, the ire at infrastructure companies in E&U and the connection will bill prices shows a total lack of understanding of the regulatory impact locally, and the global market dynamic for carbon based energy.

So how about people give it a rest with the incessant bashing and show a modicum of respect for an important sector to the UK ant the people who work within it.

Oh, that won't happy because its not cuddly like health, education, etc.

I'm all for changing the tone on this debate so let's see if EVERYONE can contribute to that positively.

[TdM]

Ignoring tone for a second, I agree with @C8RKH the headlines are very much designed to stoke hate filled fury without actually addressing the detail.

Centrica (owner of BG) made a big profit, NOT from the bills of British Gas customers directly BG profits were down. O&G exploration made a lot of money for Centrica but that's not all UK based and as mentioned, they don't control the market price of that O&G. Nobody is queuing up to give them money when the market swings against them, which it does at times.

People tend to blame the shareholders and complain that they are getting profit out of this. Well yes, but the people complaining about the shareholders are probably shareholders, often unknowingly. If they didn't get a distribution of that profit, they will then complain that the pensioners are not getting their pension and also they will complain when they get to their pensionable age that there is nothing in the kitty for them to retire on.

The latest one is to bash BT for 'making millions in profit' which is less millions than they made before, even after an increase in revenue from price rises and cost cutting exercises. If they pay everyone a huge payrise and give up on cost cutting, they will make a huge loss, they will be forced to make more lay-offs and they won't be able to pay down their pension deficit which means anyone on a BT pension gets screwed.

The system is extremely complex with many affected nodes, the complaints tend to focus on the black and white extremely straight forward view without the complexities and therefore just blame 'the big guy'. A lot of that is because instead of education, the press are only interested in getting fiery headlines that get everyone worked up.