Grade II Listed Property

[Bibs]

Anyone live in a listed house? What's the reality, are they really a chore or is it not so bad? 

Seen a couple of lovely local places I'm interested in recently and both are on the list! 

[Bazza 907]

We have one. Not so much of a big deal until you want to extend which you can do, just need to get listed planning permission. Normally there is someone on the council planning who deals with historic buildings.

Obviously if you need to repair it then should be in keeping with the rest of the house e.g. windows etc. One benefit is that if you have works done they seem to be VAT free.

We did a big extension but this was to replace a falling down lean to. As long as you do it sympathetically you should be ok.

 

[jep]

English Heritage can be very difficult.

Justin

[MPx]

Deliberately not.  But as you know I like messing about with my houses and that's a right pain if you have to ask permission every time you reach for a tool or paint brush.  On the other hand, depends where it is.  If no one can see it, then enforcement is unlikely as no one will complain!

[march]

We looked into it before buying the farm, the restrictions can be ridiculous and should you need to repair the existing structure expect big bills.

[exeterjeep]

My parents moved into a large pink thatched, cob walled  grade 2 listed property in 1986. With 0.5 acre formal garden. Over 4 floors overall..

As my parents got worse I spent a lot of time over there. There was always plenty to do.

Heating was expensive as there were loads of doors and thin glass with tall ceilings and large rooms. Had to be re-thatched and also re-ridged at least once.

Re-thatching also needed listed building consent as the reed was change from 1 type to another.

One of the cob walls fell down, cost a lot and an age to fix and get listed building agreement. Even their outer wall had a separate listing and part of it collapsed and they spent 10k getting it fixed.

When their boiler was condemned by B gas had to apply for listed building consent to get a new flue and vent pipe installed. So they were without hot water/heating for over 6 weeks. Had another planning app to install a lift from the ground floor up to the 1st floor landing. - took ages to get permission.

Was really glad to get it sold in August 2019.

When the wife and I moved to Devon in 2008, we always said to any estate agents , no listed property, no cob and not in a conservation area.

 

[Barrykearley]

13 minutes ago, exeterjeep said:

When their boiler was condemned by B gas had to apply for listed building consent to get a new flue and vent pipe installed

That’s utter pishe I’m afraid. They’ve been badly advised and let down. Listing does affect such things - but it does NOT overrule your human right to a decent standard of living within. I’m on my Third listed building now. Had many a run in with conservation clowns - they misinterpret the listing protections as a routine.

The reed change would absolutely need consent - rethatching in like for like does not. Our last place was a thatch and it took some time for them to actually clarify that rethatching did indeed not need consent since it was maintenance. The argument we had over the satellite dish bolted out of sight on the side was utterly laughable though - since I’d removed a massive tv aerial from the chimney and didn’t want anything seen. Again in the listing documents you are indeed allowed one piece of receiving equipment.

[exeterjeep]

Certainly British gas would not replace the boiler without LBC. They also found 1 small sheet of asbestos during their investigations - another £1k. My parents would not consider a non BG boiler/installer - this was around 2011.

I happened to attend a council meeting where planning issues were discussed etc. I pointed out that if a new boiler needs to meet certain building regs, such changes should be covered by permitted development even if in a listed g2 house that is someone's permanent residence. Had to convince the conservation lady that we were not going to fit flue/pipe larger than 4". 

Got away with moving the tv aerial from the garden to the house on  top of the conservatory. The house was in the centre of town and so could not get away with some changes - eg the garden walls. It was also on the towns tourist information leaflet.

[Dan E]

@Bibsgive me a call at some point or we can discuss next week in the pub. I have worked in a few and basically completely refurbished personally one Grade II listed and one Grade II* building, the difference between the two was completely insane. The Grade II* one was an absolute nightmare, same borough, same conservation officer. Be very careful and get to know the conservation officer, intimately in possible 😂

18 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

That’s utter pishe I’m afraid. They’ve been badly advised and let down. Listing does affect such things - but it does NOT overrule your human right to a decent standard of living within. I’m on my Third listed building now. Had many a run in with conservation clowns - they misinterpret the listing protections as a routine.

The reed change would absolutely need consent - rethatching in like for like does not. Our last place was a thatch and it took some time for them to actually clarify that rethatching did indeed not need consent since it was maintenance. The argument we had over the satellite dish bolted out of sight on the side was utterly laughable though - since I’d removed a massive tv aerial from the chimney and didn’t want anything seen. Again in the listing documents you are indeed allowed one piece of receiving equipment.

Sorry Barry he is completely right about installing a new flue, been there seen it, felt the pain and done it 

[Barrykearley]

Don’t confuse a 10” shiny wood burning pipe - which they will insist to be spray painted black and will need consent - with a small balanced flue pipe. They’ve been smacked before about this sort of stuff. If you have a boiler - then you have a right to replace it - end of chap.

[Kevin Wheeler]

We have lived in the same grade 2 listed property for nearly 30 years.

My advice would be to involve the Listed Buildings officer if you need to do anything.

We have: turned a Coach House into an office; replaced a 60's lean to with a light airy garden room, replaced the drive and just finished refurbishing a porch. Plus other stuff I don't want to/can't remember.

It is a bit more expensive to get stuff done. But I live in a house with lovely dimensions, great big rooms and great decorative plasterwork/fireplaces etc. It is worth it IMHO. Much better than living in a new build (not that I ever have - other than the 60's council house my parents moved into when I was born!)

You are welcome to pop in @Bibs when you come to Thruxton if that is not too late. Or ask me about it when we are there. 

(And the VAT saving on improvements went many years ago!)

[Dan E]

1 hour ago, Barrykearley said:

Don’t confuse a 10” shiny wood burning pipe - which they will insist to be spray painted black and will need consent - with a small balanced flue pipe. They’ve been smacked before about this sort of stuff. If you have a boiler - then you have a right to replace it - end of chap.

Depends where you want to vent the flue pipe, same place or relocate. Take it from me it isn’t a formality around here 

[Barrykearley]

I understand it can be interpreted differently area to area. But the listing standards are national. There’s nothing they can do to stop a like for like boiler replacement even if the flu looks slightly different. 

[pete]

If you aren't au fait with buildings it's worth paying for a full survey. My eldest has recently bought a grade 2 listed farm house on which we had a full survey done at a cost of£2000, however it was worth it as the report was 42 pages long and frightened the life out of the lady seller. She took an offer £100,000 pound less than asking price and my son bought knowing what needed doing with everything roughly costed

[DDubya]

Bibs, they’re only a pain when you want to change something. Of course, you know our property. It was a bit of a double whammy, as not only G2, but in the Dartmoor NP conservation area. Heritage and the NP are in cahoots, so simple changes, kitchen door to window and the wood burner required to lots of permissions.

and don’t, as Barry has commented, get me started on Black Flues😡

What boils my piss even more is that English Heritage would rather see a building crumble, rather than be preserved, albeit modified to bring up to date.

 

[Chillidoggy]

My last office was in a conservation area, albeit not listed as such. Whilst that in itself was a laughable, given the surrounding amusement arcades and other such crapola retail outlets, when it came to replacing the windows that were rotten, and pissing in water every time it rained, the money to do the job wasn’t an issue, but the local Council was a complete pain in the arse, refusing identical plastic windows, instead we had to have wooden units custom-made, and within a year, they’d warped and started leaking again. Then there was the saga of the lime-mortar required to face the building, and don’t get me started on the lead roof issues.

Personally, this was an abject lesson in beaurocracy, and I’d steer clear of any listed building, unless you love a good (and possibly extended) fight whenever you want to change or repair anything. Jobsworth’s abound, and Danny’s last statement is absolutely true of English Heritage. This was also true of one of the local Martello towers, where they refused the owner permission to make any changes, so she pulled the plug and since then it’s been left to rot.

[Colin P]

The difference in opinion above sums it up for me. I also have experience through work in repairing damaged buildings, where you end up with massive delays due to permissions and the authorities often represent a deer in headlights, which means nothing gets agreed so nothing happens, often whilst the buildings deteriorates. 
 

For me, it’s the same as leasehold, you are not in control so steer clear. 

Oh. And just try and sort out a situation where building regs and heritage requirements and directly contradict one another!!

[exeterjeep]

44 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

Personally, this was an abject lesson in beaurocracy, and I’d steer clear of any listed building, unless you love a good (and possibly extended) fight whenever you want to change or repair anything.

When my parents wanted to put a lift in, due to their mobility problems, I remember my mother phoning the local conservation officer at the council, at one point she said to my mother (aged around 84) that she could go to prison for doing unauthorised work.

[Bibs]

Thanks very much folks, really useful experience. I think we'll try to avoid if possible but go in with our eyes open if the dream house comes up and it's listed. 

This is one of the ones locally, it's an old farmhouse...

And this was a big part of the appeal!! 

 

[Colin P]

2 hours ago, Bibs said:

 

 

Right up to the point when the heritage people will not let you pave over the lawn to access it!!

[TJS10]

Having always lived in listed properties, G1 and G11*, you need to accept that you are the current custodian of historic architecture and buildings which comes with various legal obligations.

 

Your starting point is to ascertain why the building has been listed in the first place, in particular the features which comprise the listing and can be subject to audit by the authorities. Modern kitchens, bathrooms, heating etc will not be a problem as long as the listable features are not removed or altered. So, as a prospective purchaser check the property via https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/england#.YiCpES2l2X1  and make sure the features are intact otherwise you become liable for any subsequent action as the property owner.  Builders and tradesman can also be liable for works which destroy listed features which is why they tend to require listed building consent and inspection by your local authority conservation officer.   Conservation Officers have a defined job to do, protect the integrity of the listed buildings, and I have found them to be constructive and supportive as long as you engage with them at the outset of a project or alteration. Incorporate their suggestions and they will inevitably endorse your listed planning application to the Planning Officer. You will have to pay for them to attend a site meeting which, ultimately, can be the easiest and cheapest route. 

 

The listing includes the demise of the legal title, i.e outbuildings and trees are also captured by the listing and need listed building consent to fell or alter.

 

I currently live in a late 16th century G11* timber framed thatched house which is much less onerous then G1 which entails detailed works and craftsmen in terms of materials and cost. However, it makes sense to use very similar materials to those used in the past, for example lime mortars and lime wash paints rather than cement mortars and modern plastic enhanced weatherproof paints. With a timber framed building and old plaster infills you need to let the building move and breathe, it has no foundations or damp proof brick courses so if you use modern sealant paints inside and out you end up with structural problems due to rot. There are a number of specialists providing the necessary materials for diy use but do take appropriate safety measures, slaked lime is nasty stuff. Again, chat with your conservation officer for advice, use their expertise and resources. Central heating and underfloor heating can also cause problems by extracting moisture from the structure so take professional advice.  Thatching material; water reed or long straw, is largely governed by regional historic use based on available local resources. Putting water reed on a listed building surrounding by others thatched with straw isn't going to happen.  Also if you are re thatching bear in mind it is usually a case of removing the top layer and adding new material. My current roof is now a metre thick and shows 6 layers of thatch at the eaves. The more layers that build up the higher the ridge line, but be careful to ensure the ridge is at least a metre below any chimneys if using a woodburner or stove to prevent invalidating the insurance. You may come across "tokens" embedded many years ago in the thatch especially over the entrance doors. These tend to be a pair of children's shoes or boots or a dead, now mummified, cat and were placed to ward off witches and demons. If you come across them tell the Conservation Officer, record them and put them back in the new thatch ... who knows, they may actually work.

VAT. Since 2012 VAT at the current rate is payable on repairs and maintenance to listed buildings. There are zero rated exemptions for "alterations" which are themselves subject to a raft of conditions. See HMRC website for a complex explanation, or .. chat with your Conservation Officer.

 

Modern double glazed windows in an old property can cause a bun fight.  Keep the single glazed style and after installation fit a secondary unit to the inside of the frame.  No consent required. 

 

Don't be put off buying and living in a listed building, just be aware of the implications and potential costs and make sure you get a professional survey from someone who knows what they are doing, especially in terms of the listed particulars.

 

Links of interest 

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/index.php

https://www.oldhousestore.co.uk

https://earthbornpaints.co.uk

 

 

 

 

 

[exeterjeep]

And if you buy a listed property it is essential to check that what has been done has got the correct approval.

There is a property the other side of our valley, that is not visible from any nearby public road. Over the years the old windows have been changed to pvc and the original thatch has been covered up (think it is still on) by a normal tile/slate roof without LBC.  So anyone buying that could come a cropper.

My parents and I also had an issue with being under insured, they had got a re-building cost years earlier, from a local agent of around £650k (which had been increased with inflation each year). But when I was sorting out the insurance claim for the cob/garden wall, NFU thought it was not enough. A surveyor who was approved by the NFU came up with a rebuilding cost of £1.3m.   I told all this to the new owners,  but it is still only insured for around £650k - £700k - again with NFU. So the rebuilding cost of such houses can exceed their value considerably.