Is electric really the answer?

[exeterjeep]

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/mercedes-backtracks-on-ev-only-by-203?fbclid=IwAR3Cf82QxjOGwWaXtp0qCYnoDeV5vUmCwoZgxprKObBFhtJjBhSF0TC-TNo

Mercedes backtracks on being EV-only by 2030; combustion engines to continue

German giant becomes the latest to delay its EV plans amid weakening demand

[mg4lotus]

I've been interested in this thread and the whole situation as it has been developing. At some stage it will be affecting me along with everyone else.

I know the government are going to ban the sale of new diesel and petrol ICE cars but I don't think they are forcing manufacturers to build BEVs. Or have I missed something? Some manufacturers are looking at hydrogen powered vehicles, I presume these will be legal. Maybe the buying public will have a say in how the future will play out.

[jep]

Electric was the (newer) technology most advanced when governments announced a ban on ICE. By banning hybrid and allowing massive tax subsidies on EV, plus rolling out more charging points and the short timeframe for the ban, government have in essence forced EV as the solution to tailpipe emissions. 

The hybrid ban was short sighted, they should have allowed a gradual and phased lowering of ICE assisted power. This would give time to formulate a better solution than pure EV. 

They should also tax cars on width and weight, to encourage innovation and to halt the endless growth in the mass of vehicles. 

Justin 

[C8RKH]

9 hours ago, mg4lotus said:

I've been interested in this thread and the whole situation as it has been developing. At some stage it will be affecting me along with everyone else.

I know the government are going to ban the sale of new diesel and petrol ICE cars but I don't think they are forcing manufacturers to build BEVs. Or have I missed something? 

Yes, you have missed something.

From the start of this year the Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) mandated regulations kicked in.

Starting at 10% of total annual production manufacturers are being "encouraged" to build and sell EV car and vans.

For every single vehicle that they produce, below the 10% threshold, they will be fined £15,000, per vehicle 

They can do nothing and buy EV credits from other manufacturers who are in excess of 10%, for instance Tesla who, at 100% EV could sell credits for 90% of their production likely earning them up to £10,000 per car credit.

The % of production rate increases annually.

That, to me, is Government forcing manufacturers to build EVs, and is a policy that could kill off EVs for the masses.

These are just bonkers times.

[jep]

https://www.evaengland.org.uk/our-work/zev-mandate/

22% of production for cars in 2024. 10% for vans. 

Even before ZEV was announced, the ban being brought forward from 2040 to 2030 (changed to 2035 subsequently), forced manufactures down the EV route as it was the only technology remotely ready to be rolled out to mass production. 

Justin 

[pete]

[blindside]

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/features/chinas-ev-dominance-from-domestic-powerhouse-to-global-leader/?cf-view
 

“On the other hand, the UK is doing very little to tackle the problem, which in addition to the threat of a post-Brexit EV trade tariff being imposed by the EU, paints a gloomy picture for the UK’s auto market competitiveness. 

Jim Saker highlights how production targets and government regulations are pointless, given the country does not have solid supply chains in place: “When [former Prime Minister] Boris Johnson launched the UK 2030 ICE ban, which was completely kind of random, there was no reason for 2030, he didn't guarantee the supply chain, he handed over the UK motor industry to China. This is because China controls 95% of the world's supply of batteries, and the raw materials that make up their supply. They've got the Belt and Road Initiative that runs into Africa with something like 80% of the world's cobalt from the Democratic Republic of Congo. So, therefore, what you've got is a kind of a situation where you basically place the UK in a very difficult position.” 

Even though the ICE ban has been effectively pushed back to 2035 for car buyers, government targets for car manufacturers remain unchanged. Starting in 2024, 22% of newly sold cars must be zero-emission vehicles.”

It is one thing dumping ICE vehicles for BEV without market demand pushing changes. It is quite another to effectively hand control of the market to Chinese companies.

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

To be fair to the Chinese, if they’ve got millions of environmentally friendly EVs, then they need those 1200 coal fed power stations to keep them all charged up! 🤣

[jonwat]

I wish I was clever enough to think of this 

[Kimbers]

On 24/02/2024 at 22:57, mg4lotus said:

I've been interested in this thread and the whole situation as it has been developing. At some stage it will be affecting me along with everyone else.

I know the government are going to ban the sale of new diesel and petrol ICE cars but I don't think they are forcing manufacturers to build BEVs. Or have I missed something? Some manufacturers are looking at hydrogen powered vehicles, I presume these will be legal. Maybe the buying public will have a say in how the future will play out.

 

On 25/02/2024 at 08:38, C8RKH said:

Yes, you have missed something.

From the start of this year the Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) mandated regulations kicked in.

Starting at 10% of total annual production manufacturers are being "encouraged" to build and sell EV car and vans.

For every single vehicle that they produce, below the 10% threshold, they will be fined £15,000, per vehicle 

They can do nothing and buy EV credits from other manufacturers who are in excess of 10%, for instance Tesla who, at 100% EV could sell credits for 90% of their production likely earning them up to £10,000 per car credit.

The % of production rate increases annually.

That, to me, is Government forcing manufacturers to build EVs, and is a policy that could kill off EVs for the masses.

These are just bonkers times.

What he said.

As buyers we are being forced to take up to 25% BEV of our total number of Vehicles purchased, by at least 3/4's of manufacturers.

We have refused and so far managed by buying from manufacturers who give us free reign on ICE cars.

If we end up buying BEV's we would lose more money on 10 than we would make on 100 ICE cars so it's not financially viable.

last, and by no means least, no one wants them to either hire or purchase on defleet. 

We drove back from Bath yesterday. 

It was absolutely hilarious to look at the 3 Tesla's all queuing up at the one working Charging point on the M4. Last car was pulling in to join the queue and you could almost hear the cursing knowing they have a 3 hour wait! hehehehe

[Kimbers]

From Fleet News, interesting and signs that the Betamax of cars is starting to falter:

 

Apple has scrapped its plans to launch a self-driving electric car, according to new reports.

Known as "Project Titan", the Apple car was expected to take the form of an MPV-style shuttle.

Apple shared its decision to cancel the project internally, according to Bloomberg. Around 2,000 employees were working on the project.

Apple has declined to comment on the matter, but it's believed that the decision was made due to low margins the car was expected to deliver in the current market.

Global investment interest in electric vehicles (EVs) is falling. Tesla shares have fallen by 30% this year, Renault recently confirmed it will not float its EV development arm Ampere due to a lower-than-expected valuation and Volkswagen has also delayed its plans to list shares in its battery manufacturing business.

The news from Apple comes just weeks after Volvo confirmed it will stop funding Polestar and is planning to reduce its shareholding in the company.

[Sparky]

My idiot son-in-law, despite my many attempts to deter him, poured over £100k into Polestar in 2021.  When it tanked a few months later, he poured a load more in, thinking he was being smart.  Again I warned him, to no avail.  He still can't accept he got it wrong!

[Kimbers]

4 hours ago, Sparky said:

My idiot son-in-law, despite my many attempts to deter him, poured over £100k into Polestar in 2021.  When it tanked a few months later, he poured a load more in, thinking he was being smart.  Again I warned him, to no avail.  He still can't accept he got it wrong!

Now Volvo are trying to get away from, what is basically, a failing brand, he needs to get out while he still has a little left! When Volvo finally push the button there will be another big drop.

[Bibs]

They did announce yesterday that they've secure $1bn in external funding.

[Sparky]

His losses are so great that he might as well keep them and see if latest developments pull something back.

[red vtec]

@Kimbers  Seems Apple actually turned out to be a lemon.

[Kimbers]

59 minutes ago, Sparky said:

His losses are so great that he might as well keep them and see if latest developments pull something back.

We will see. I don't think their $1 billion will help when no one wants to buy an EV and they are 100% EV. They have made huge losses year on year and looks like even by their own admission aren't expecting to even break even till 2025.

[Sparky]

I agree!  But he has, I believe, less than 5% of his original investment.  Might as well take the gamble at this point.

[C8RKH]

He must have had money to burn. In fact he could have used it on the bbq for a better return.

What possesses people to so stupid, then repeat it? That really is stupidity.

Sorry, couldn't think of anything less harsh to say.

[Sparky]

You're absolutely right.  He is a monumental dumbass but will never admit he's wrong.  And it's not his first major stock loss.  He also enjoys casinos.  Ask me if he wins.

[C8RKH]

Must be on a great whack to support that sort of lifestyle and losses. It'd be much cheaper just to fill his nose with cocaine for the same rush.

[Kimbers]

14 hours ago, Sparky said:

I agree!  But he has, I believe, less than 5% of his original investment.  Might as well take the gamble at this point.

Invested £100k and has 5% left! Holy mother of god! thats 50% of my Pension pot! 

[Sparky]

As you can imagine, my daughter's not best pleased.  Anyhow, to steer somewhat back on topic, he's a great example of the effect of the EV propaganda machine.  Flawed EV ideology is apparent everywhere, and many of the great unwashed are swallowing the bullshit.

I'm not an ardent EV naysayer; I just feel it's dreadfully flawed in its current form and few in control are being honest about it.  Of course they're not: money is involved.

[Kimbers]

We find, after extensive use in our market that even Company Car users who took an EV as an option last year, have gone for a PHEV or HEV this year.

We had 8 office staff take them and the stories we got back turned everyone off them for life.

We had rental cars that should do 2000 miles a month come back with 8000 miles after 2 years they were being so underutilised. 

Is it any wonder our competitors are disposing of their EV fleets.

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Sparky said:

I'm not an ardent EV naysayer; I just feel it's dreadfully flawed in its current form and few in control are being honest about it

I'm with you here. I can be very negative re EV's but that is because the bullshit has been strong. The lies have been many. And the infrastructure is just not there! Apart from that. All good. Lol.