Is electric really the answer?

[Sport220]

14 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

@Kimbers / @Sport220

Kimbers, I am more likely to believe your numbers and experience as you are the front of the market.

Mario, with all due to respect, your working for a manufacturer making EV's - of course it's all going to look rosey and be positive because everyone around you NEEDS it to be so to keep their jobs. It's the difference between an engineering/shop floor view and a "sales" view. Guess why most manufacturing businesses go bust? They spend too much making them, believe the engineers who say the product is just the best, and not the sales numbers and customer feedback....!  Not scientific but the numbers of people I know who are handing back their EV's is larger than those planning to buy one.  Even VW has switched off assembly lines for EV's due to slow demand.

Just because it should, does not mean it will.

I didn’t say anything that would suggest it being all rosey positive. I just posted some figures I looked up online which show EV uptake is on the up. I’m not one for online rambles when I can get the facts and figures from actual reports. Which does not mean what Kimbers explained here is not worth considering.

Very curious as to why you “would not believe” the data I posted on here.

Also, the thread’s title is “is electric really the answer”. I see no reason why it shouldn’t be. Hard to question that when there’s no car manufacturer not headed that way. 

 

[madmax]

They have no option - simples!

[Beady]

Having had a Taycan for 2 weeks now, it is brilliant.

I have a home charger and I don’t expect to have to charge it away from home more than perhaps 5 times in a year as we rarely travel more than the 250 mile real range 

Buying through the company gives great tax breaks but I do expect the used value to take a big hit compared the last Macan we had as the family car.

 

 

[Sport220]

On 07/07/2023 at 16:48, madmax said:

They have no option - simples!

I'd recommend you read the question posed by the OP:

"Is it wise to put all "our" faith in electric only cars which will require probably 25 million charging stations minimum from 11 thousand today. Shouldn't we also be looking at other alternatives hydrogen maybe or even liquid nitrogen :-"

[Kimbers]

On 07/07/2023 at 16:34, Sport220 said:

I didn’t say anything that would suggest it being all rosey positive. I just posted some figures I looked up online which show EV uptake is on the up. I’m not one for online rambles when I can get the facts and figures from actual reports. Which does not mean what Kimbers explained here is not worth considering.

Very curious as to why you “would not believe” the data I posted on here.

Also, the thread’s title is “is electric really the answer”. I see no reason why it shouldn’t be. Hard to question that when there’s no car manufacturer not headed that way. 

 

Hey Mario, see my reply to you previously. Figures can be fudged very easily.

And what Madmax said is correct. All manufacturers are being pushed down that route by Govts and those with an agenda. What the Govts don't have is a plan to build enough infrastructure to actually make Electric Viable. Oh and that hundreds of Billions if not a Trillion £'s to invest in infrastructure to make sure it is more viable. 

Next step in 2025 is that all car makers MUST have 30% of their sales as EV's. And here's the rub, how do you force people to buy something they don't want? Well, like I said, you fudge your figures by giving away cars to big fleets (even though many will just sit and not be used) or you force EV's into dealers as Courtesy cars, demos etc as part of their dealer standards. Lastly, if that still doesn't work the Govt have said they will limit the number of ICE cars manufacturers can make.

This all smacks of 1984 to me. Not only that but they are charging whatever they want for public charge points. Currently it's twice as expensive to fill up in public, per mile, with electric than it is Diesel. I filled up an EV6 on the M1 and it cost me £42. This allowed me less than 200 miles. Well for £42 of petrol in my Sportage I will get 435 miles. So what we are saying is "force people into electric then fill your boots big business! Oh yeah, and Govt taxes that are coming!"

However that isn't the only story I have heard recently. A dealer I spoke to Friday told me he had parked his EV at the airport and when he got home from his holiday it had nowhere near enough range. He put 45 mins in which cost him £24 and when he checked he had only got another 22 miles. On complaining the company said "those are our rates its signposted"! 

I understand you are working for an OEM but I know so many employees of car companies who tell me they have similar operational issues with their EV's and they currently aren't fit for many kinds of users. One guy told me last week he has begged them to supply him a Hybrid petrol as he is driving all day and spending so much time at charge points he's had enough. Where he used to be working 8-6 he's now 8-8 and his company refuse to pay for time he spends sitting at service stations so it's all free to the OEM. But they have to drive EV's because their sales are "nowhere near expected" so they have to all drive them to make their figures look better.

He's looking for a new job.

Lots of people are very sceptical about EV's and I am actually not. I had an EV6 and bloody loved it! But it just wasn't viable for me and my job. So I now have a Sportage PHEV which is one of the best bits of kit I have ever had and fulfills my EV use around my local journeys and works with the petrol on my long journeys. However, EV production is like HS2. They are too far along and spent too much now to look at alternatives, despite it being the worst of all options. If they had started with Hydrogen cells or Hydrogen internal combustion engines instead of EV's then we would be so much better off now. But they didn't which is why we are stuck with an impractical, expensive and ecologically unsound way to supposedly fight Climate Change. 

Personally I think that if we had spent all this money on buying and installing China, the US and India Solar panels, wind turbines etc then we would have done far more for the environment than by changing to EV cars! 

 

[madmax]

Don’t forget guys as fans of (generally) older cars there is of course a credible alternative of sustainable fuels on their way from the likes of Coryton. I know Harry Metcalfe had a lot of positive input on these as a viable alternative so we can actually keep using what we already have - which is no bad thing as far as our classics go 😁

[Kimbers]

Isn't it funny that a company previously committed to 100% EV has just announced a £7bn investment in building a new Factory in the UK specifically to build internal combustion engines?

 "consolidate operations, build on synergies, and define future plans." Now to me that looks like the first manufacturer to openly invest back in ICE engines knowing EV isn't viable for some time. Why else would you invest such a massive amount which will barely get up and running before 2030?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158

[Sport220]

https://www.evo.co.uk/caterham/205944/new-caterham-project-v-unveiled-lightweight-ev-sports-car-to-reach-showrooms-by?amp
 

[Kimbers]

That's a pretty car. Stick in a Hybrid ICE or a V6 and I'd be up for it!

[Escape]

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

Isn't it funny that a company previously committed to 100% EV has just announced a £7bn investment in building a new Factory in the UK specifically to build internal combustion engines?

 "consolidate operations, build on synergies, and define future plans." Now to me that looks like the first manufacturer to openly invest back in ICE engines knowing EV isn't viable for some time. Why else would you invest such a massive amount which will barely get up and running before 2030?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158

I had no idea Geely and Renault were cooperating?

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Serious question @Kimbers or anyone else for that matter. I have a Passat PHEV. It takes about 5 hours to fully charge the max. 35 mile range battery on a regular 13 amp household plug. If I am on a long journey and the battery runs out, I switch to the self-charging hybrid mode. This will usually bring the battery back up to full charge within about 90 minutes or so of continuous driving, so I can then revert back to electric only for another 30 odd miles. Is this self-charging costing me at the petrol pumps? I cannot notice any discernible difference in engine performance whether charging or not. It still seems to rev at the same rate per mph. Is the on-board charger little different to an alternator, so just another pulley on the ancillary belt, or does it really add load to the engine? My guess is the former and that charging up the battery on long runs is worthwhile and then using whatever battery range is left to finish the journey electric only and then charge up again at home.

[Kimbers]

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Serious question @Kimbers or anyone else for that matter. I have a Passat PHEV. It takes about 5 hours to fully charge the max. 35 mile range battery on a regular 13 amp household plug. If I am on a long journey and the battery runs out, I switch to the self-charging hybrid mode. This will usually bring the battery back up to full charge within about 90 minutes or so of continuous driving, so I can then revert back to electric only for another 30 odd miles. Is this self-charging costing me at the petrol pumps? I cannot notice any discernible difference in engine performance whether charging or not. It still seems to rev at the same rate per mph. Is the on-board charger little different to an alternator, so just another pulley on the ancillary belt, or does it really add load to the engine? My guess is the former and that charging up the battery on long runs is worthwhile and then using whatever battery range is left to finish the journey electric only and then charge up again at home.

Yes mate. PHEV's really should run on pure electric for short journeys (My Sportage has 42 miles) however if I am going long journeys I switch it to Hybrid mode as soon as I hit the main road. The electric then assists the petrol engine making the MPG better than if it was just running on ICE. What you are doing is losing all that assist and worse, the engine is running more to put the power back in the batteries.

So, for example. I go to my head office which is 155 miles away. When I leave and hit the A11 I switch to hybrid and my average fuel consumption is (assuming I'm not late) around 48-52mpg. Then, 40 miles from my office (and our chargers) I switch to Electric and normally end up around 58-62mpg over the whole trip. 

However, just last week I forgot to switch it over cause I was on a business call and when I noticed it was too late as it said "Switching to hybrid mode due to low battery)....DOH! So, by the time I got to my office I was at 41mpg. Now thats much lower, even considering I used 40 miles of Electric to start with. And its all because the engine was running purely as an ICE rather than a Hybrid.

So, you are costing yourself money mate

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

OK, so if I was replicating your same 155 mile journey in my car, I would currently use up all 30 odd miles of battery power first, then switch to self-charging ICE hybrid mode for the next 95 miles and replenish the battery, before going back to electric only and empty the battery again for the final 30 miles. I am only using the ICE for 95 miles of the 155 mile journey, but you still think that is less fuel efficient than running hybrid mode pretty much from joining the A11 until switching to electric only for the final 30 miles or whatever is left in the battery? 

[Kimbers]

It is on my 2 ton Sportage. Give it a try and see. Do both and see which is best.

[exeterjeep]

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/new-rules-over-rapid-public-ev-chargers-aim-to-encourage-switch-to-electric/286801

No timescale as yet....so could be years.....

The rules say the rapid chargers will, on average, have to be ‘reliable for 99 per cent of the time during each calendar year’, with the providers forced to publish information about their reliability.

EV drivers will also only need one app to pay for public charge points that are run by different firms. At the moment, they have to use multiple smartphone apps or membership cards for different networks.

All chargers that deliver above 8kW of power will have to have a contactless payment feature to speed up the charge, too.

[Bibs]

They really need to think about wheelchair users too, they usually have massive metal rails in front of and around them! 

[electro_boy]

@LotusLeftLotusRight, When the battery is being charged by the engine the energy being put into the battery has to come from somewhere and that must be from the engine.  So your car will be using up more fuel when in charging mode as the engine has to power the wheels and the generator.

Whether its better to keep on full hybrid mode the whole journey or switch back an forth to electric only when in town etc ...  thats a very tricky question and depends on so many factors and how the car is setup.

It could turn out the engine and gearing is tuned to be efficient when on the motorway and charging battery.  So by turning off battery charging and reducing load you are not gaining much and it's better to have the electric mode for around town.  Or could be better to just keep in hybrid all the time and let the car figure it out or could be better to just use up the battery and then stay on pure ice with no battery charging and only charge via a plug socket ... very hard to tell due to all the different variables.

Best thing would be to try an option for a few days log the result and then try a different combination and see if there is a difference and which one works better for you.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Thanks for that. I wouldn’t be surprised if no-one really knows! I just don’t see why having what is effectively an alternator for charging the battery should consume so much more fuel than when not charging the battery. No-one ever blamed the alternator on regular ICE cars for poor fuel consumption. I get why air conditioning can have an effect, because that involves powering various mechanical processes.

[Escape]

Because the alternator/generator needed to charge a drive battery needs to be a lot more powerful than if it's just charging the normal starter battery. A typical starter battery is around 1kW (12V x 75Ah). The battery for electric drive in a hybrid is typically 20-40kWh. And you want to charge it in a couple of hours max. So the power needed is 10kW or more. Which is a significant extra load for a small ICE. Hence it will use more fuel.

If you want to minimise fuel use (assuming charging at home costs you less than fuel at the pump, taking into account all losses), use it as a pure EV for short journeys or for the last part of a journey if you know you can recharge at your destination. When driving on a busy city roads or in heavy traffic, i.e. low speeds and a lot of stop-start, pure electric will also be more efficient than having the ICE running all the time. But any decent hybrid should shut down the ICE in those circumstances anyway. On open roads and at speed, you want to use ICE as it will be operating at its most efficient and will have power to spare to charge the battery at the same time.
I know some higher end cars even use data from the navigation system to plan charge cycles: if they think you're heading to a city, they will try to make sure the battery is well charged (by engaging the ICE) so you have enough range to drive as a pure EV once you reach the city. And often they automatically switch to pure EV when entering a city without any driver input. Which can be a bit of a surprise the first time.

[electro_boy]

Quote

Because the alternator/generator needed to charge a drive battery needs to be a lot more powerful than if it's just charging the normal starter battery.

This +1.  I did some quick googling so sorry if my numbers are not super accurate but hopefully they give an idea.

The average car alternator outputs around 500 - 800 watts.  A UK 13 amp plug socket can output 3000 watts and you said takes 5hours to charge the battery.  If your car can charge the battery in 90mins then its roughly putting out 3 times as much power as the plug socket so around 9000 watts so more than 10 times the power of a top end alternator.

Quote

I get why air conditioning can have an effect, because that involves powering various mechanical processes.

Same thing with a generator ... a generator with a higher output will require more energy to turn the input shaft.   Energy cannot be created it can only be transferred from form to another.  A generator takes in mechanical energy (kinetic) and turns it into electrical energy.  So if more electrical energy is flowing out then you must have put more mechanical energy in the first place, otherwise you have magically created energy and solved the energy / cost of living crisis! 

That extra mechanical energy going into the generator in turn must have come from somewhere too ... it must have come from the engine; which has to work harder by putting in more air and fuel and creating a bigger bang in the cylinders and creating more torque. 

In some racing cars, folks often remove the alternator as it will be sapping up some power from the engine.  They rely purely on the battery to provide enough power for the spark plugs for 1 race and then charge or replace battery for the next race.   or they install the smallest alternator possible to reduce the drag on the engine.

 

[Bibs]

With EV's they can charge via regen from braking, so it's just turning kinetic energy back into chemical. I had my full EV for 24,000 miles and a full 8,000 miles were from regen, very clever use of energy and better than turning it into heat. 

[Kimbers]

On 12/07/2023 at 08:59, Kimbers said:

Isn't it funny that a company previously committed to 100% EV has just announced a £7bn investment in building a new Factory in the UK specifically to build internal combustion engines?

 "consolidate operations, build on synergies, and define future plans." Now to me that looks like the first manufacturer to openly invest back in ICE engines knowing EV isn't viable for some time. Why else would you invest such a massive amount which will barely get up and running before 2030?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158

And another firm looks at alternatives to EV as SSE takes it's first Hyrdrogen powered van to test. 

And Commercial Fleet Magazine have urged companies NOT to invest in EV Vans until they have tested them in winter after many companies who bought one to try last summer found their mileage range virtually unusable in Winter. - my own experience with this is on average, in the summer, mileage range of a 1 ton van is 80 miles with any weight whatsoever on board.

i am just digesting a report sent out to many of us Fleet Managers about charging costs and it highlights exactly what I mentioned before. Charge costs need to be regulated because EV users are paying so much more per mile than ICE users. It also highlights how much cheaper it is to use a 3 din plug charger at home, even more so than an ICE car, however its not practical as a 3 din Plug charger can take up to 24 hours for a full charge on an EV, on my Sportage PHEV (42 miles) it still takes 6-8 hours.

However it also states that the Govt is looking ways to tax home charging at current Petrol rates to help recover their loss in income from EV users.

Here's the highlights:

Charge type    Speed    Jun Ave (p/kWh)    May Ave (p/kWh)    Cost to charge to 80%    Pence per mile (p/mile)
Domestic 3 din                      34                        34                               £13.60                                      7.64
Domestic Slow Up to 7kW    44                         44                               £17.60                                      9.89
Domestic Fast  8-22kW         55                        55                               £22.00                                     12.36
Slow Peak         Up to 7kW   53                         53                               £21.20                                      11.91
Fast Off-peak    8-22kW       75                         88                               £30.00                                     16.85
Fast peak           8-22kW       79                         98                               £31.60                                     17.75
HEV (non plug)                                                                                                                                        11.00 (Based on a Toyota Prius)
PHEV                                                                                                                                                         6.00 (Based on average Electric vs Petrol use and Renault Capture PHEV)

Hope you all find this as interesting as me as it often doesn't get published just how expensive an EV is to run compared to an ICE if you don't us a 3 din trickle charger. Even the Home chargers use more than expected for me. However this can be offset by going with a high spec charger which is linked to Solar panels on your house and with a storage facility built in. However the cost of this is prohibitive once taking into account the cost over life of the cars. £6000 for a reasonable number of Solar panels, £3000 for a 7kw charger with storage. However you will need a minimum of 8 Solar panels to generate enough electricity.

Faster 22kW chargers are also available, but they require three-phase power supplies which UK households do not have by default. It is possible to have your power supply upgraded, but this can be an expensive and involved business, with prices range from £3,000 just for the unit, and exceeding well over £15,000 depending on the nature and location of your home and its electricity supply. 

[oneshot]

There are new build houses now being built with 3 phase by default. One for the house, one for EV charging and one for house heating (heat pumps). This then allows the Govt to charge a different tax rate on each phase.

[exeterjeep]

27 minutes ago, oneshot said:

There are new build houses now being built with 3 phase by default. One for the house, one for EV charging and one for house heating (heat pumps). This then allows the Govt to charge a different tax rate on each phase.

You could still charge your EV on a 13A socket and pay the standard house rate I suppose.   

[Rambo]

4 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

You could still charge your EV on a 13A socket and pay the standard house rate I suppose.   

But you'd never get to drive your e-car because it would always be on charge 🫤