Future of Lotus

[NedaSay]

Why would Lotus keep paying for a 4 cyl Toyota - even if hybrid compliant - when they can source one within the group which will produce a lot more power as standard?

I would get opting to retain the Toyota V6 if they cannot bring the Geely 6 cyl up to EURO VI spec, but I really don't get why they would keep paying for the 4 cyl when the Chinese supply will be at least as good, and customisable at will, and will cost less. And again Toyota new 2l is a lean burn which is great for fuel economy but nothing they cannot get from within the group. Another point going against that engine is the loom that the Elise may get if it gets one last major refresh, it would logically be a loom shared by all Lotuses in the future and derived from the Volvo/Geely electrical architecture.   

As for the hybrid component, JMG has said it many times, he will take a hard pass on making a hybrid sportcar because the package would be too heavy.  However  a full EV sportscar as soon as Polestar and Volvo come out with the tech would foregone conclusion as is the hybrid crossover which will most certainly feature an hybrid propulsion system to help Lotus meet CAFE standard in the US and their equivalent in Europe, and Asia.

I personally see the Elise adopting the Volvo/Geely  1.5L 3 cyl turbo  180bhp as base ( Replacing the Elise Sport) and the 2L 4 cyl turbo 250 bhp  (replacing the 220 Sport) before 2020 if indeed the Elise isn't getting replaced.

Lotus is now part of a group that has muscles to flex, and I'm pretty positive that they will flex it in a big way.  The fact that they are going to build a carbon tub supercar to replace the limited run 3Eleven is very telling, even more when they say the car will be less extreme. The fact that JMG said that these car would be in production until 2024/25 is even more revealing: 

http://www.carsuk.net/lotus-to-deliver-two-new-cars-and-an-suv-in-the-next-three-years/

I'm pretty sure that the 4 cyl Toyota days of Lotus are coming to an end, it is not sad as the 4 cyl 1.8L Supercharged 250bhp is a wonderful engine so wonderful in fact that the work Lotus has done on that engine has been so thorough that it was  adopted by Toyota's own Gazoo Racing Master of Nurburgring division  on their Yaris GRMN.   

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by NedaSay

[geartox]

Indeed Lotus will not be at Geneva Motorshow.

Cars are not evolving in a way I like, Lotus is an (the?) exception for me : raw, fun, performant on track and road with a low running cost.

I don't know what the future will be, but the present is good.  

 

 

[Frickin_idiot]

1 hour ago, geartox said:

Indeed Lotus will not be at Geneva Motorshow.

Cars are not evolving in a way I like, Lotus is an (the?) exception for me : raw, fun, performant on track and road with a low running cost.

I don't know what the future will be, but the present is good.  

 

 

I'll be more interested in shows in the second half of the year when maybe, just maybe details of the forthcoming cars will be released.

[NedaSay]

I think meaningful details on the new cars are still at least a year away but Lotus still need to update some models, mostly the base model of each range have gone  without updates for a while now. Off course Lotus has been chasing higher margins at the top end but I think Lotus will introduce new base spec soon. The Elise sport has been discontinued and they may see fit to replace it with a new variant. the Evora 400 should make way for a Evora GT 400. And if indeed the Exige is the model getting a replacement and the Elise and Evora do soldier on for a few more years it would make sens to update their electrical architecture as much as possible. I do think Beijing 2018 is too early but I would not rule out a nice surprise around Goodwood. Unless JMG decides to keep up with his 2017 release pace , in which case it could be any day now.

[Jeanvm]

Maybe you're right maybe not. Please bear in mind that the coming years will reduce emissions be very important. And a 3 cyl turbo only will not be the solution.

Lotus would also have a role to play in this. Wait and see.

[Ccd]

The plan appears to be tweaking existing models as often as possible with minimal investment in those models in terms of changes that would require expensive R&D.  Geely’s money appears to be going into the completely new models.  The goal appears to be to maintain excitement and interest (and sales) for Lotus until the new models arrive.

At this point, not sure that Lotus would even spend the money to offer a targa version of the Evora.  How long existing models will have to soldier on is unclear, but probably at least a couple more years.  The challenges in the meantime are also clear.  The Evora 400 GT is a slight cosmetic change to the 400.  But Porsche is coming out with the next gen 911 this Fall.  Lotus will find it increasingly hard to compete without their new models.

[TBD]

I was at Komo-tec (Lotus am Ring) last thursday and had the opportunity to see the full current Lotus range except the Lotus 3-Eleven 430 (but there were 2 3-Eleven 410's in the showroom). Quite an impressive collection, but the upmarket strategy of JMG is certainly leaving its mark.

At 161.000€ the Evora GT430 is certainly pushing the price boundaries quite a bit, but I felt that this car is at least worth the money. The Evora has reached a quality level that seems at par even to Porsche, the performance is undaunted and the looks astonishing. Congratulations to all those who have bought one (@Pits). Only thing I' d still like to see is the wider track and hips of the fomer Evora GTE.

In contrast at 130.000€ the Exige Cup 430 looks heavily overpriced. Sure, Lotus has added quite something in comparison to the Exige 350, but all this has gone into enhancing performance, nothing into daily usability (the Exige still rattles as much as ever). 130K€ for a trackday tool with very limited chance to harvest the its strengths in day-to-day driving and limited creature comforts makes for a very niche market. In this price segment you would at least expect active suspension, maybe rear wheel steering and why not active aero? Take a 350/380 and give it the full Komo-tec treatment you're still saving 20K€ (or get the 500Hp and the sequential gearbox).

So, with the Exige Cup 430 at 130.000€ the 3-Eleven starts to look a bargain at 120.000€. You'll probably want a trailer for both and, if so, you might as well go for the real thing. I was actually tempted considering that I'm now living in an area where the sun shines most of the year. Getting in and out of a 3-Eleven can't be much more awkward than getting into the Exige with the roof on.

Obviously Komo-tec had a few Elises too and at least their prices are still at a level where you might not have second thoughts. Sure, the Elise will nowhere match the outright performance of either the Evora GT430, the Exige Cup 430 or the 3-Eleven, but you'll probably have just as much fun and its much easier to justify the price.

So, what does all this mean for the future? Well, all of the current range have pretty much been stretched to their limits. You can't tune the V6 engine much further without a new gearbox (which Toyota can't supply), the current Exige/Elise chassis doesn't leave much potential to increase day-today usability (not to mention that it can't be sold in the US-market). Also, none of the current range hold much potential for attracting new buyer groups, which is essential for Lotus future growth.

Lotus future would look dismal without having Geely behind them  and without JMG having successfully moved prices up market.

 

 

 

[swindon_alan]

A slight aside but I was on holiday in Cuba last week (will do a post about the other cars there in the Random thread) and was surprised to see loads of recent Geely saloons, many of them taxis. Apparently they look identical to a US Chevrolet model. Of course with the continuing embargoes the Chinese would only be too happy to supply another communist country. We had a ride in one from the airport to the hotel and it was very nice, a good standard and could have been a new Ford, Vauxhall, Peugeot etc.

[Sport220]

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180319/ANE/180319865/why-lotus-ceo-expects-record-breaking-results-from-3-new-models?cciid=email-ane-daily

 

Quote

Why Lotus CEO expects record-breaking results from 3 new models

Lotus CEO Jean-Marc Gales is feeling optimistic. China's fast-expanding Zhejiang Geely Holding took a majority stake in Lotus last year and recently committed to its first big investment in the British sports-car maker. This will allow Lotus to add staff, new models and upgrade its production facilities in Norwich, England. During his four years as CEO, Gales has steadied the company's finances. Now his challenge is making Lotus's first SUV a winner without damaging its reputation as a maker of lightweight, agile sports cars. Gales spoke to Automotive News Europe Correspondent Nick Gibbs.

Lotus has been part of Zhejiang Geely Holding for more than six months now. What changes are taking place?

We will hire 300 new staff this year. Last December we were at 806, the lowest for a long, long time, so we will go to 1,100, almost a 40 percent increase.

Are the majority of the new hires going to work in vehicle development?

Most are. Geely has approved two new sports cars. We will tell you what they are in five months, but both will come in 2020. Our last new car [the Evora] was in 2009 so it's time for a new one.

Will these be flagship models or entry-level sports cars?

I can't be more precise, but both will be a benchmark in the segment in terms of handling, aerodynamics and lightweight.

And the SUV?

We have started to work on the new SUV.

When will it arrive?

In about four years. The SUV has to be the right car. We get one shot. We still need to sign off final design. That's the most important part. We can't use the same design language as a sports car, but you should also be able to recognize that it is a Lotus.

Will it use a platform from a Zhejiang Geely brand, maybe from Volvo?

Let's call them modules. Platform suggests something big and heavy and it's not like that. We are going to heavily use a mix of new and proven Geely family modules and combine them to create an aesthetically beautiful performance crossover.

What size is the SUV?

The Porsche Macan and Cayenne are the most interesting segments worldwide, so midsize and large. I wouldn't start Lotus in a compact segment.

What are your annual sales targets?

Above 3,000 a year is still our aim. Maybe in 2021-2022 with the two sports cars we can do that. Last year we sold 1,600, up from 1,416 the year before. We'll be at five digits [more than 10,000 units a year] with the SUV.

Will the SUV transform Lotus?

The company is growing fast. Revenue was up 24 percent to more than 100 million pounds (114 million euros) last year. We can double that, then as soon as you launch an SUV, you're thinking of a turnover close to 1 billion pounds. That's the sort of size we want – and we won't stop there. That’s why the SUV is so fundamental.

Where will you build the SUV? China?

We haven't decided, but given China is the world's biggest market it makes the most sense.

Can you get the OK to build in China?

We'll find a way. It's highly probable. The important thing is that the sports cars stay in the UK. For the SUVs I can imagine two places [for production] worldwide and I would love one to be in the UK, but there are things to discuss.

Like what?

I want to know what happens after Brexit. It casts a shadow over everything because it makes long-term planning difficult.

The entry Elise starts at 30,000 pounds. Does Lotus always need a budget sports car?

Over the last four to five years there haven't been many newcomers in sports cars. There seem to be two areas in the world where manufacturers need to get into bed together, one is vans, and one is sports cars. Sales volumes are notoriously low, investment is notoriously high, so you need to invest wisely. It's not easy.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Sport220

[webfoot]

A couple of items of interest.

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/general-news/geely-group-motorsport-created/37740

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/road-cars/should-lotus-relocate

[NedaSay]

The first piece is of interest I agree, go check the motorsport thread.

The second one is one of Frankel fluff piece that he sometimes writes when he has very little to say, which happens every now and then. JMG did state it many times, Lotus will stay in Hethel cause Hethel is the heart of Lotus. 

Lotus will definitely use other production sites in the future one assuredly being in China and the other one could potentially be in Coventry where LEVC has a brand new plant or Gent where Volvo has a plant. Lotus will not relocate its headquarter the same way Volvo did not relocate their HQ.  Should Lotus need more staff, and have trouble finding them, they could just open a new office jointly with LEVC or lease part of the oversized LEVC factory.

However if you think about it, thanks to their acquisition by Geely Lotus now has access to no less than 4 R&D facilities in 3 different countries and 10,000 staff. Lotus is in the process of hiring 200 new staff based at Hethel. So much for the comparison with Aston Martin, Lotus is not a stand alone player any longer.

Lotus could also rearm Lotus Engineering Inc in the US, as it is located in Ann Arbor, Michigan, it would have no problem attracting highly qualified staff from any of the US big 3, and the US is Geely's next big target, as Geely is slowly gearing up to launch Lynk & Co over there by 2020 if they can stick to their schedule.   

[TBD]

Geely in Formula E just has to be LOTUS!!! Within the group they are the only brand with a proper racing heritage and what better way to push the group than leverage it.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Still not getting the love for Formula E. It's the shared 3rd Party chassis that does my head in. It's tantamount to a One Make series for cars from a manufacturer no-one has ever heard of !

[webfoot]

9 hours ago, NedaSay said:

The first piece is of interest I agree, go check the motorsport thread.

 

Sorry NedaSay.  I was browsing on my phone and didn't spot your motorsport post.

Yes the Frankel piece is just speculation. It is like a "phoney war" at the moment. Lots going on behind the scenes, whilst we all wait impatiently for some big announcement. 

Always good to read your insightful posts.

[TBD]

4 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Still not getting the love for Formula E. It's the shared 3rd Party chassis that does my head in. It's tantamount to a One Make series for cars from a manufacturer no-one has ever heard of !

I actually agree with you, I still much prefer F1 and consider Formula E boring.

But then, we are not the ones who decide where carmakers spend their racing money and they all seem to be flooding Formula E.

[NedaSay]

There's a lot of that  @webfoot. But his comparison with Aston Martin is confounding to say the list .... The dynamic of both companies is completely different at the moment in my opinion. As for the title of his piece is pretty much clickbait again my opinion. 

When it come to Formula E  I like the idea of it and find it a bit dull at the same time, I went to the event first event in Montreal last year and did enjoy it though, the racing was good. Now it is a spec series that focusses on electric motor and transmission development, Lotus has always been known as a chassis designer and developper.  For some reason I do think that Polestar is as of now a better fit for the series.  Lotus would be more at home in F1 but I don't really see a future for F1. Unless they go the Nascar way they will have to phase out internal combustion engine in favor of some other form of propulsion if they don't want to lose their relevancy. Logically at some point the engines we see in Formula E will make their way in Formula 1 chassis, then and only then Lotus  returning to the sport would make sense to me.

Formula E is almost at capacity when it comes to manufacturer involvement, Only twelve teams are allowed into the championship  and all slots have been filled as of next season. Not all manufacturer will get the success they expect to get and  some will quickly leave. Polestar is a better fit for FE in my eyes as it is poised to be the EV avant garde of the Geely group.

Right now F1 is too expensive while  FE is too restrictive. Hence I'd prefer Lotus to focus on GT racing with their upcoming carbon fiber supercar. Investment will be less, return on investment may not be and I believe there will be more activation money  available. They could also go the LMP route as there's a vaccum in the FIA/ACO championship right now.

Actually it all depends on what the Geely Group Motorsport entity sees fit for Lotus. Should Lotus have a motorsport program? I want to answer yes to that one. Should this program be brand focussed or product focussed?  Right now I would think product focussed, there's been a lot of brand stuff in the past few years that has done very little to help sell products, because Lotus was not in a position to activate. Racing the product would do great to help sell said product and Lotus brand would still benefit a lot from that. Then when the SUV start selling in higher numbers and that the current line up as been entirely replaced it will be time to race the brand.

But then I am just a fan giving my two cents.   

 

 

[NedaSay]

This will be  digression on the Formula E topic, If Geely wants to have either Lotus or Polestar to join they better make a move and firm up plans soon according to Sam Smith e-racing365 Ford is gearing up to join the circus. Ford has done what they wanted with Le Mans and the factory GT program is coming to an end. Fordvis now considering tieing up with an existing team. This year the non aligned teams are Dragon and Techeetah, next year Techeetah will become DS Techetah will Virgin will become non aligned but probably an Audi customer. Dragon was rumoured to be part of the Porsche project but the tie up  did collapse finds itself a stand alone player. Dragon appears to be the potential Ford team which would leave Virgin as the only customer team in the series in season 6. 

 

from http://e-racing365.com/formula-e/ford-begins-preparations-for-likely-formula-e-entry/

 

[NedaSay]

Matt Prior take on Lotus future

https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/blog/prior-convictions-the-lotus-position/37760

I had another read at the Auto New piece :

Quote

 Geely has approved two new sports cars. We will tell you what they are in five months, but both will come in 2020. Our last new car [the Evora] was in 2009 so it's time for a new one.

Does this mean that at least one if not both models will be seen in prototype guise at Goodwood this july?

Edited March 25, 2018 by NedaSay

[Bravo73]

I bet they’re not. I’m happy to bet that they won’t be shown at Geneva 2019 either. 

(Getting my 🎩 ready with seasoning). 

[PaulCP]

and no mention of the ever elusive Evora Roadster that some of us have been waiting for 

[Bee]

I keep thinking that the Evora Roadster has to be the key interim sales boost between now and 2020. I would have thought that the only questions are the number of variants (especially with regard to engine tune etc. - 410bhp and 430bhp anybody?), finalising a roof strategy (electric or DIY roof disassembly/assembly at this price point?) and where to place in terms of luxury versus sports. Mind you, I predicted it would have been out 2-3 years ago so what do I know! 

[geartox]

New models for 2020, ok but 2020 is far. We will have plenty of new variants for current models.

 

[franjipane]

One of the cars coming in 5 months has to be the Evora roadster, and I am totally ready for it!

[Sport220]

There is no new car coming in 5 months, they'll just anounce what they are then. Both will be launched in 2020 according to JMG

So I don't think one of them will be an Evora Roadster, it's far more likely to be an Evora replacement, even more upmarket. Esprit "S5" I guess

[Barrykearley]

Bring it on. By the time it comes out ripping all the money out of my pension pot and spunking the lot on one will be just perfect timing I reckon