Future of Lotus

[NedaSay]

8 hours ago, Techyd said:

For the wealthier end of the market, the GT4 championship is gaining more and more popularity - is the Evora GT4 still produced / available??

So about that one, this is one of my "WTF is new management doing"  moment! The car was announced, a program was hinted at, and then a whole lot of nothing. Nothing from Hethel, nothing from Geely Group Motorsport in Sweden (really weird as they would normally oversee this) and nothing from Shanghai either!!! The car hasn't been seen testing, not a word on FIA/SRO homologation, no news on development whatsoever.

Can it be produced? I'd say yes. Is it available? I'm pretty sure somebody at Hethel is waiting to get a check while potential clients would like to see what it can do first. And despite being really fast on the hillclimb at Goodwood, this little demo won't do when it comes to getting people to sign a big check and a leasing contract on the dotted line.   

[chipp]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus-boss-reveals-more-details-about-new-car-to-be-built-at-hethel-1-6402471

Latest interview with Phil Popham.

 

chipp

[Nathan Pitman]

That’s the most insightful thing I’ve seen to date. Thanks for the link. That’s a pretty clear ‘sports cars only’ (for now). Surely with the next (affordable) car being as far away as 2021 (assuming no delays) they have to be considering some updates to the existing range?

[stephenwhyte]

As I understand it (from a reliable source) we will see some runout models next year and that will then be the end of the V6 era. The new model will then be introduced in ‘21.

Thereafter my own thinking is that we will then see a range of new Lotus sports cars built using all the Lotus design and engineering markers we hope for - I believe the future is bright.

We all have to be patient and believe in the current management team - it’s good times ahead and those with a current era Lotus.......keep it, as it’s value as a modern classic is surely almost guaranteed🙏

[The Pits]

Got my hopes up there Nathan. Just the usual repetition about DNA, I know it’s a widely used industry cliche and I know what they’re getting at but cars have no such thing and the current range (true descendants of the Lotus lineage and philosophy) are being neglected. My take out from the article is that the next car is running late and hopes to be a Norfolk built Cayman when it eventually shows up. Please feel free to correct me if you feel I've missed something.

After 15 months we have been given very little to make us believe in the new management. The optimism here is admirable but Lotus won’t get another opportunity like this, the clock is ticking on the combustion engine, Lotus really don’t have long to fulfill their potential, for a petrol sports cars at least. Such a thing, for me, would have been a game-changing driver’s car that no-one else could have made, not a clone of something else that’s successful. The focus now appears to be on following the market to chase volume, not leading the way with radical innovation. So even if they manage to shift more cars the ambitions are now entirely commercial - a successful copycat is the aim, not to continue a proud tradition of inspired and ground breaking engineering. I still wish the company every success, always will, but I fear the chance to build ‘the Lotus they always wanted to build if only they had the money’ has been lost already. It’s just not the aim anymore when ‘volume at all costs’ is. But if the time and money being spent at Hethel is of no object then we’ll see what comes, when it comes and take it from there.

Can’t help but think the radio silence is a great way to let loyal customers lose interest and drift off to pastures green but again, time will tell. But it’s not filling me with confidence. JMG had a few howlers but by heck he gave it a go. This crowd?

I’ll shut up now as I’m depressing myself but yes very glad to have a stunning Evora in the garage which will remain glorious to drive regardless of whatever comes next and is looking ever more likely to be my ‘petrol keeper’.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

On 27/11/2019 at 15:44, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I thought talk of the SUV had been shelved some time ago?

edit: I think I might have dreamt that. Sorry for getting your hopes up.

Having read that EDP interview, it makes me think I didn’t dream this after all. The Lotus SUV may not have been shelved completely, but it certainly seems to have been put on the back-burner, possibly indefinitely.

[C8RKH]

I'm keeping the faith. The £55-95k price range does suggest a Cayman type car and I'd expect tinpot (or should that be plastic top 😆 ) and a spider/targa/convertible version. 

A quality base car around £60k would then give a £35k uplift for carbon, suspensions and performance upgrades. 

I'll keep my mind open and my attitude positive  till we get something firm to chew on.

[KAS-118]

So the sum up is that it will be more practical - but he seems to be backing away from an SUV.

The Evora is already a practical 2-seater; but not a 2+2; might we be seeing a proper 2+2 coupe?

[NedaSay]

I'm going to side with the Pits here...  Popham seem to be delaying things even further than they were about 7 months ago during his last round of interview. So two things, they are confident A.F that they can keep the business afloat with just Evija and  no investment on the current model range... which is stupid IMO - but what do I know right. Or they are completely ignoring their dealers because they know that they will need and use Geely-Volvo dealerships and showroom worldwide, so they are ready and willing to let all the current dealers walk out the door at least in North America. 

We knew a Boxster/Cayman competitor was the next car coming  55k to 95k is pretty much exige money... Would they dare branding that car Elan? And send it again the 800 pounds gorilla. Well an Elan is certainly not an Exige and maybe they need to get away from the Exige extreme ethos in order to get more market penetration. Then again I trust a few stalwarts at Lotus who will get the car absolutely right but the new  PR, sales and marketing teams are leaving me cold right now. That interview is a sad reminder that the new PR people in charge are not quite doing their job right now... You are giving an interview, you want to talk about your cars and the future and your background is a freaking heater and a chair... WTF!!! They set up their camera and you don't think about setting a more appropriate angle!

As for the SUV. I really hope they are lying to us on that one. I hope this car is at Quinfeng' Shanghai lab and they are moving FSA on this for a a release in 2022/23, because if they get there after everybody else, It is going to be much harder to sell an EVSUV, Chinese home market advantage or not... Considering that in about 2 years time it is going to be the one market where all the premium car manufacturers are going to go at it. 

Hopefully  I do know that all the designs are pretty much set in stone ( I hope that remains the same) and commonalities are going to be the main thing with all future cars, which means a fast forward lead time. Popham said in early 2018 that it would take 4 years to develop the new platform which is an evolution/redesign/update/upgrade of the VVA platform with a couple of key attributes. That puts the potential release of the first new architecture sport car to 2022 and then they could and better go rapid fire.

For now I just really hope that they get some visiblity for the brand beyond Evija, this would mean a motorsport program with Evora as it is their only global car as they decided to not export the Elise and Exige to China! 

[C8RKH]

@KAS-118 I believe (or is that hope) that at that price point it will be a 2+0 like the Cayman/Boxster.  I think the "proper" GT car that will replace the Evora will be the 2+2 but it will be pitched higher, probably to face off to the 911 so £85-£140k?  

Don't forget the current Boxster/Cayman range starts around £45k and goes to what, £80k for the new GT4 (not including any of the lavishly priced extra's here). So surely the new car at £55k - £95k will be in the Exige/Boxster/Cayman space size wise. But I could be miles out there. I cannot see them producing an Evora sized 2+2 that much cheaper than the current model which ran (with the GT430) from £85-125k.

@NedaSay - I love reading the detail in your posts, but as you admit, a lot of it is just your view and gleaned informed snippets, so, until we get anything firmer/concrete it is all of course just supposition and crystal ball gazing. One thing Hethel does seem to be doing well right now is keeping everything under wraps and everyone guessing.

I have to admit, that going onto the Porsche website to check the Cayman prices, a new Cayman S at £55k is a good buy, a Cayman base at £45k even better for those who want something a tad sporty AND a daily driver. You can see why the cars are popular and why Porsche does so well with them.  I mean, I could have had both a Boxster as a DD, and a Cayman S as a track car, for the list price of my Evora 410 Sport!!!  However, thankfully, I hate the design / looks of the Cayman (the Boxster I would probably buy!) and have little desire to join the Porsche Owners Club unless of course it was a GT3RS!!!

[The Pits]

If the aim is to significantly increase volume then an SUV is obligatory. Given the opportunity for platform and component sharing with Geely and Volvo there's no chance they're canning that. In many ways that's the easiest car they can make plus expectations for handling and performance are so much lower. Not so hard to make the best handling SUV on the market. Just make it slightly less awful than the rubbish your competitors sell. Again though, Alfa tried exactly this with the Stelvio and I think it has sold in much fewer numbers than they were hoping.

[KAS-118]

23 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Again though, Alfa tried exactly this with the Stelvio and I think it has sold in much fewer numbers than they were hoping.

But as I understand it the Maserati and Alfa has underperformed in respect of sales - so it's difficult to see why Lotus would do better, especially in the near future. The EDP interview seemed to suggest that Lotus were still going to produce an SUV - but this isn't the next car to be released (but perhaps I'm misreading it).

Whilst I agree with C8RK comments in respect of price; the Evora is a pretty practical car at the moment - especially compared to the Elise and Exige. But whereas Porsche do have a car that does at least have some-useable rear seats (the 911 - and I accept its above the £60k price point); Lotus do not.

I seem to remember previously reading something about Lotus using the Evora chassis in one last hurrah, before moving to new architecture  - so if they're not going to produce a 'proper' 2+2, I'm struggling to see the point of making another 2+0?

Edited December 1, 2019 by KAS-118

[Bee]

So, after years upon years of people here berating the embarrassingly behind-the-times interiors, controls, ICE etc., the genuinely difficult access/egress, the lack of equipment compared to the competition, the fact that Lotus' new price points were increasingly leaving them behind, how Porsche and then the Alpine A110 were/are showing the way … you could add allsorts more to this list but let's leave it there … Lotus are apparently building a surprisingly reasonably-priced, medium-sized coupe that will be easy to live with and have a decent interior; probably go, ride and handle in the manner people expect a Lotus to; and, will likely have some cool styling cues from the Evija, pointing the way to future Lotus cars, and...

 

… to read through some comments, here, you'd think that was some kind of disaster. Am I genuinely missing something?

[Barrykearley]

I can’t wait until they unveil more cars. It’ll come I’m sure of that.

they didn’t simply rush a host of new motors out of Volvo. Instead they took some time and resolved issues they had. New volvos that are coming out now are so much better than when they took over.

keep the faith

[The Pits]

Yes @Bee you're missing that I personally have never criticised Lotus for the 'behind the times interiors, ingress/egress' nor have I ever argued that Porsche or Alpine were showing the way. Those that have been moaning about Lotus will no doubt be pleased with the new direction they are taking.

The current range are magnificent drivers cars that have been starved of oxygen by a miniscule to zero marketing budget. Yet the cars are being blamed for the poor sales, which is pretty dumb when they haven't been given a chance.

Let's say you make some really delicious lemonade in your kitchen. But you tell no-one about it. You see Sprite's impressive sales figures. You can't work out why you're not selling any so hire some industry experts to help you out. They conclude that there must be something wrong with the recipe. It was invented by your Grandfather Colin and handed down through your family the since the 1960s and is still being raved about by Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey to this day. But they say forget all that, no-one wants that old-fashioned stuff any more. Forget telling people about it and getting people to try it. Buy a machine and make it as much like Sprite as possible. Stick a Lotus badge on that, talk about DNA a lot, sit back and watch the punters flock in.

I think what's being missed here is the glaring flaw in the strategy and gaping chasm in the logic.

[scotty435]

What ever Lotus do next year or in the coming years it will never be good enough for the so called diehards, we need to grow up and realise the motoring industry is going through its biggest change or challenge that we all have experienced. For the company to survive we need to stop criticising every thing they do or do not and be patient and give them time, sure things will become clear in 2020 

[The Pits]

The diehards have been keeping the lights on at a Hethel for some years now. Without them the place would have gone the way of TVR, Marcos, Noble and others long ago.

Anyone who has bought a new Lotus in the last 5 years has done so against popular opinion, has paid considerably more for less bhp than they could have got from Nissan, has opted against the once money making Porsche GT cars, some have forgone McLaren and Ferrari ownership against the advice of many within the Lotus online community.

I think it’s time we gave the diehards a break. What have the new (highly paid) management done to date to deserve more support than the people here who have put their hands in their pockets and money where their mouths are?

[au-yt]

Well said. I am one of the diehards, I had options to but 2nd had a main stream exotica and opted for  a lotus and very very glad I did.

The comment on this article https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus-boss-reveals-more-details-about-new-car-to-be-built-at-hethel-1-6402471 

Obviously this guy wont be buying a LOTUS any time soon, but I wonder where this "knowable" person got his facts from

Voice of Reason • 2 days ago

What planet are the people at Lotus on? They currently make a loss of £234,000 per car sold and that’s after the accountants have played with the figures to make them a good as they can be. How many millions have they lost trying to produce an electric car, with no chance it will ever make the company a penny. I know that Lotus has the backing of the Chinese but just how long are they going to fund such huge losses, let alone recovering the 10’s of millions of losses from previous years. The most profitable thing that Lotus can do, is to demolish the factory and return the land to agriculture because they are never ever going to make a profit producing unreliable cars!

 

 

[Nathan Pitman]

During any period of serious investment in the future and R&D they are bound to be making huge losses. Still find it odd that there’s no sign of any marketing of the current excellent drivers cars, they could be offsetting some of those losses... that said I guess the crux of the problem is if they start a marketing push now they won’t be able to keep up with demand. 

[C8RKH]

I'm at a loss. I must be on a different planet to some.

Over the past 6 or so months I have seen a greater and greater presence on the internet, by social media including Facebook and Linkedin, from Lotus HQ. Key influencers (established car reviewers) have had good access to cars and we have seen more reviews in the last 12 months than probably the last ten years.

Viral marketing is underway. It's cheaper and arguably more effective than just posting adverts willy nilly. To say there is a dearth of marketing is just not correct.

The website is improved, but still work to do I agree.

The Evija has been designed. Built and now we have clear evidence it is not just one "show car" - prototype with limited capability - but a at least two, maybe 3 cars that are being driven at speed on the track. This car must be keeping very busy at Hethel and is a monumental achievement. How many great NEW cars can a manufacturer like Lotus work on at once? Given the value this car has to be a success. If it is not, Lotus will be dead from a luxury credibility point of view. So again, imagine how many people are engaged on this in Hethel.

I think a sharp intake of breath is needed. Give them some time to get the job done, and get the job done right!

Marvel in the delight of what is currently the best range of analogue, driver focused cars from anyone.

Lotus is at a tipping point. It could go either way. So, as true supporters let's give Lotus our support. Christ knows she has enough detractors without so called fans adding fuel to the fire with their assumptions that could in fact, be hugely wide of the mark.

 

[The Pits]

Bizarre to be arguing in favour of blind faith over keeping a sharp eye on what the new senior management are up to. But ridiculous to demand that anyone else do likewise. I’m sure we would have some more insightful discussions if some could find a way to be less offended by criticism of the new Lotus management.

I don’t see what the new suits at have done to deserve infallibility status and be above scrutiny? We’ve been here before with Bahar and blind faith didn’t help much then. What we have now seems to be similar, minus the vision and passion!

I’ve always taken the view that if Lotus can survive to fight another day that’s worth the ignominy of Swiss Beatz, gurning youtubers, questionable special editions or mehketing. I’m starting to think that surviving at all costs is a case of careful what you wish for.

Hope for me lies with the brilliant, true Lotus lifers that are still there. I know some of the things that went on behind the scenes to save Lotus from previous administrations and there are some true unsung heroes up there. It’s just a shame they aren’t in charge!

Having money to spend has always been a double edged sword for companies like Lotus. Money buys expensive experts, committees, complex processes and all kinds of things that don't actually make the cars better to drive or nicer to look at. A wise man once told me that a big company with lots of money would never have signed off the Exige. Therein lies the conundrum. I think in years to come we will appreciated what Lotus achieved during its more austere years all the more.

[C8RKH]

I'm not arguing blind faith, I'm just saying that in the absence of anything concrete, why not wait and see before we condemn anyone or anything.

By all means go around and sow your seeds of doom and gloom and how the cars of the future will not be this or that. I hope, as I am sure you do, that you are wrong. But, and it is a very big BUT, if a wholesale revolution is being planned and executed at Hethel then that will take a lot of planning and a lot of fcous, and therefore time, to get right.

I remember the Bahaha days, and one minute everyone was look, ooh, arhhh, hooray and then the next it was ooh, arse, nay!  Same with JMG. Everyone loved how he was getting hold of costs, had a plan, was putting Lotus on the map, then everyone was glad to see the back of him and his stupid repainted specials that came out, seemingly, every week.

It seems that time and time again, it does not matter what Lotus management do, but if their name is not Colin or Mike then they have no idea.

With me, as I have said above several times, it is not about blind faith. It is about giving the new operation time to sort itself out. Do things properly. Provide a platform for growth. If you think that's a quick fix then you are deluded. The difference between a Chinese Business Man and a Western Business Man is time. They are prepared to invest in it. We are not. 

[The Pits]

I guess who would want the job? Might explain why the Lotus lifers have kept their heads down. Trying to drive volume from a low volume sports car maker is a formidable challenge, made even harder by current industry trends. Most here have given the new suits the benefit of the doubt and have shown plenty of patience. But given Evija was a JMG initiative, I think a number of us were expecting a bit more from Lotus as 2019 draws to a close.

[C8RKH]

I think all of us in the corporate workplace expect more from new suits They seldom deliver... Usually a lot of hype and hoorahs but little substance to back it up with.

Me, I just look in my garage at my little old Evora Sport 410 and my Type 116 and thank all those at Hethel for the wonderful job they've done. I hope to buy another new Lotus in the not too distant future, as long as they make a car I want to drive and own.  Otherwise, like a lot of people, I'll take my wallet elsewhere and that will likely be too either an old Lotus or something like an Ultima or a McLaren. I've always liked the 12c (more so than the later cars, I suppose I view the 12c like the Evora S1, the pick of the range) . This one would look great parked next to my 410 Sport:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201910123239103?advertising-location=at_cars&price-from=500&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&make=MCLAREN&model=12C&sort=relevance&postcode=ph149st&page=1.

[jep]

17 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I've always liked the 12c (more so than the later cars, I suppose I view the 12c like the Evora S1, the pick of the range) . This one would look great parked next to my 410 Sport:

12c is a bargain and will most likely still get cheaper. Perfect compliment to Evora NA in my view. Evora NA cheap to run (I await a clutch bill but averaged over my so far 13.000 miles, I can weather that), 12c not so cheap to run but gives so much back in performance, ride, steering, major event feel on every outing and sheer class. The running costs will put a lot off but for me, 12c fits better than a 410 or 430, as the suspension on those, for me, is disappointing and not dashboard adjustable as on a 12c. And the Spyder is just great, as you can have the back window down with the roof up for aural exhaust heaven.

McLaren is the reason I don't think Lotus can follow that business model. I cannot see Lotus competing with the McLaren showroom appeal, so best avoid that clash. I think Geely are most likely doing the right thing, aiming as I understand for more user-friendly GT cars. For me, price will be the key to success and as Geely have managed to make Volvo SUV appealing against a tidal wave of opposition, I have hope.

Good luck to all at Hethel and to Geely.

Justin