Future of Lotus

[C8RKH]

I agree that the sun is setting on petrol cars, and at the moment my only upgrade choice for my 410 Sport is a GT430. The GT410 would be at best a sideways step as my 410 has more carbon.

My upgrade path for my Type 116 is really either a 220 Cup or 250 Cup Elise. 

So unless they do bring out one last Petrol hoorah then I agree, my future Lotus ownership route will be limited and I'll likely be in too something else, but I've stated that on here several times before.

I fully agree with you that the current state, or lack of, communication re future models is not good. However, You do have to acknowledge that Lotus marketing is active, more so than it has been for years, and they are regularly featuring customers cars too in their social media posts.

Ferrari have committed to continue with its V12 cars, indeed, they are its fastest growth market, but they are for millionaires with high disposable incomes.

At a point where Chevy have launched their new mid engined Corvette. Toyata has produced its first serious sports car for years, and BMW has pushed through the 600bhp barrier with its M cars whilst still producing stonking cars like the 140/M2 etc I do wonder if your're being a tad premature in predicting the death of petrol sports cars.

EVs are growing, but they will hit an infrastructure brick wall. Newspaper story last week on Tesla owners complaining of 45 minute plus wait times to get a charge. Indeed, last week I pulled into the services on M6 at Lancaster. Tesla was on its charger. I went in. Had a coffee. Something to eat. A pee. None of which done at speed and same Tesla was still being charged with two other owners chatting to charging car owner whilst they waited. These increasing stories will put people off.

I do hope we see a last petrol hurrah from Lotus. I agree though I might be smoking dope. Wishing for the impossible. Flogging a dead horse. Or doing all three at once.

 

[USAndretti42]

Perhaps the lack of news about new models is a good thing after all the new models that were announced but never materialised.

What about bio fuels?  They are going to be used in F1 as part of its carbon-neutral plan and still allow the use of internal-combustion engines.  They could use the same distribution network as currently used for petrol/diesel.  A bit lacking in the production facilities right now but the same is true for electric power on the scale needed to service the world's transport fleet.  It could allow existing cars/trucks to stay on the road.

[KAS-118]

17 hours ago, USAndretti42 said:

Perhaps the lack of news about new models is a good thing after all the new models that were announced but never materialised.

What about bio fuels?  They are going to be used in F1 as part of its carbon-neutral plan and still allow the use of internal-combustion engines.  They could use the same distribution network as currently used for petrol/diesel.  A bit lacking in the production facilities right now but the same is true for electric power on the scale needed to service the world's transport fleet.  It could allow existing cars/trucks to stay on the road.

I seem, to recall hearing something about these a few years ago where it was said that certain countries has been concentration in growing crops for fuel rather than food - and hence the price of food had risen - but I stand to be corrected?

[C8RKH]

@KAS-118 you are correct and it also caused deforestation I believe.

Maybe the next Lotus will be fuelled by McDonald's cooking oil?

[The Pits]

SUVs making the news headlines today. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50713616

In brief, overall exhaust emissions are going up. Blame is being put on the 1.8m SUV sales since 2015 which compares with 47,000 EV sales in the UK. SUVs accounted for 21.5% of new car sales last year, up from 13.5% in 2015. The extra weight of SUVs compared to saloon cars is estimated to produce 25% more CO2. Most will continue to do so on the roads for the next ten years at least.

So while the Porsche business model has been proven to be successful during the last 10 years, there are no guarantees that it will remain so for the next ten years. Seems to me to be a terrible time to be moving away from a tradition of radical lightweight engineering. I'm sure efforts will be taken to make the Lotus SUV the 'lightest in class' but if the view is to slacken weight targets on the basis that no-one really cares about kerbweight I think Lotus will miss a massive opportunity. Imagine a radically light and fuel efficient SUV? The timing could be brilliant. Rather than giving themselves a pat on the back for a sub 2 ton SUV, how about pushing for nearer 1400kg? It would have a real USP, make more headlines, lead the way for Lotus's competitors to follow. After a decade of cars gaining flab we now have 1600kg hatchbacks and 2.5 ton SUVs. The Lotus ethos has never been more relevant. All the signposts are there. The most Lotus inspired car of recent years, the Alpine A110, is selling well, Alfa and Maserati SUVs struggling. What we're hearing from Lotus recently suggests they want to break away from their traditional principles, dealers and customers in the hope of pulling themselves out of a niche into the mainstream. Seems at the moment that the current range are reminders of what not to do. I just hope they can see through the poor sales figures and appreciate the many brilliant things they should be keeping hold of.

If it's just another me-too fast SUV with fancy Volvo switchgear you'll get some wishy washy lifestyle marketing because there isn't much to differentiate it. Attractive, young, successful couple getting up to a variety of exciting outdoor activities, guess what? SHE drives. Imasculated man shoots admiring glances. Fade to black. 'THE LOTUS ELEPHANT. THE FIRST SUV... FOR THE DRIVERS.'

Make a 1400kg SUV and they could film a race up Pikes Peak between the Lotus SUV and its competitors. They all drive as far and as fast as they can on 5 litres of fuel. Have all-female racing drivers for all I care. Watch the others roll around before conking out one by one while the Lotus reaches the summit in time for a dramatic sunset hero shot. 'THE WEIGHT IS OVER. LOTUS ELEMENT.'

 

[C8RKH]

7 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Make a 1400kg SUV and they could film a race up Pikes Peak between the Lotus SUV and its competitors. They all drive as far and as fast as they can on 5 litres of fuel. Have all-female racing drivers for all I care. Watch the others roll around before conking out one by one while the Lotus reaches the summit in time for a dramatic sunset hero shot. 'THE WEIGHT IS OVER. LOTUS ELEMENT.'

Stick a pink bunny in the drivers seat as it powers up Pikes Peak, catching and leaving the others gasping for fuel. Make it an electric powered SUV. Paint it in historic Lotus black and gold and call it the Lotus Euracell!

Marketing manna from heaven

[DarrylV8]

Yes I was wrong to jump in feet first finally received a reply from one of Phil’s lieutenants, Lotus are not looking to via away from cars for the driver 

apologies to anyone I have annoyed or wound up 

[USAndretti42]

6 hours ago, KAS-118 said:

I seem, to recall hearing something about these a few years ago where it was said that certain countries has been concentration in growing crops for fuel rather than food - and hence the price of food had risen - but I stand to be corrected?

Champ Car and IndyCar in the States used methanol from corn to power thier cars for years and now use ethanol derived from sugar cane but F1's plan is to use biofuel that is not derived from food crops.  Whether that will need more forest clearing or not, I don't know.

[NedaSay]

I heard it was going to be foodwaste derived... But I have no idea.

Back on topic if the SUV is 1400KG then it must be mostly made of unobtainium, at 1500kg it would be a feather weight in the category and at 1600kg it will still be around 100kg lighter than the competition but if we assume it is EV from the off, then I would rather not say.

I like the sound of Lotus Element but i'm pretty sure Honda will not play ball on this one.

Edited December 9, 2019 by NedaSay

[The Pits]

Elise was revolutionary in 1996, not revolutionary for a Lotus perhaps but compared to everything else, absolutely. Not far off half the weight of a Boxster. Of course making a conventional SUV would be a huge challenge to get it under 1800kg but the Elise wasn’t a conventional sports car, Lotus will have to do what they do best and get radical minds to come up with radical solutions. Or not bother. A me -too SUV which is a few kg lighter will be a massively missed opportunity, a betrayal of everything Lotus stands for and more to the point won’t sell very well either, why would it? Other people do it better already with a more aspirational badge. Total waste of time, money and talent which could have brought us the sports cars everyone else has forgotten how to make.

I rarely agree with Chris Harris’s views but on this occasion I think he’s spot on.

https://youtu.be/DqakvnXRbSo

[NedaSay]

Harris is sometimes right! And on this one he just hammer the nail. SUVs never made any sense. Except for Porsche who could make a people carrier look somewhat better than a people carrier...  And then the rest of world realized that being aggro was a good thing ! Still I think the Lotus SUV can be relevant, on the one condition that it just skips ICE altogether. If they go straight to EV it will stay somewhat relevant. Considering where the overarching group is going it would be logical for Lotus to just go straight to EV without the need to go to PHEV even though the capability is there.

The ESUV could be AWD, FWD or RWD,  It can be somewhat excused to be lardy if the driving dynamic wizards go the whole nine yards on it. The demographic it targets is begging for ADAS so it will have the full array. It will be Lotus version of the people carrier, but maybe more importantly it will provide the underpinnings of the future sport luxury sedan that is in the Vision 80 business plan... And if they make a sporty luxury sedan the SUV maybe replaced way down the line by a proper shooting brake. And the world will be a better place just because of it... A transcontinental highway cruiser with toylike driving prowess and a range enabling its driver and passengers to go from London to Megève  without the need to stop once for anything other than empty their bowels and slowing down for toll booths.

[Jacques]

I might be worng of course, but I don't think the current chinese owners of Lotus bought them because they want to continue making small lightweight gasoline powered sportscars. They bought it because they want a brand that was cheaply for sale. The board of directors and the shareholders wants profit, not enthusiasm like Lotus used to be driven on. Look at the new logo and strange mix of colours - couldn't be more ugly. Until otherwise proven, I remain sceptical.

Not exactly the same, but it reminds me of when ford wanted to buy ferrari in the sixties.

Knocking down more trees doesn't seem to be a good idea. I have heard of a small swedish teenager who is opposing that idea. And 1.000.000.000 more behind her.

Jacques

[The Pits]

Agree on going straight to EV. But that reinforces the point I was making. The chance to make an internal combustion sports car for the ages may already have passed. Or at least the peak for petrol sports cars took place during the JMG era. I had hoped we’d see what a Lotus on a big development budget could be. Increasingly unlikely now that the first truly all new Lotus will be ICE at all.

[NedaSay]

Uh I do think next year sports car will be ICE first and possibly EV second if possible at all.

 

[The Pits]

Yes but next year’s ICE car won’t be all-new, may be 4 cyl turbo auto only and not as fast or high spec as current 430 V6s.

Intention is for something closer to current 4 cyl Cayman or Alpine. It will look amazing I have no doubt about it and that will be enough for some but it will leave recent high spec Exige and Evora owners without an obvious upgrade and painful/unworkable trade in value. Will it bring in scores of first time Lotus owners? Enough to allow the management to forget all about their long standing customers? Unlikely.

My prediction is that there will be a few who just want the new Lotus, a greater number will buy it mainly for its looks but current Porsche owners will take more convincing. The usual ambition of 5000 cars per year will receive a hard reality check and Lotus will be forced to re-engage their fan base. Faster more hardcore version rushed to market but Alpine RS is already selling well, wins the group tests and Lotus are playing catch up. Lotus faithful to the rescue once again but Geely aren’t happy and scrap any plans for anything that isn’t an autonomous EV. We might one day get a truly fantastic electric Elise but it’s a long way off at the moment.

Next year’s car should handle exceptionally well with a 4 cyl, just drive a current Elise for proof of that, but the Elise also proves how few care about great handling. Lotus would be flying out of the showrooms if steering and handling were what people prioritized . Loads of boring cars now but few actually handle poorly (not even SUVs or rear engined ones) so Lotus’s once great differentiator has been eroded somewhat. In the 70’s and 80’s Lotus were the ONLY fast cars that could go around corners!

 

[Akajak]

The founder and chairman of Geely Automobile became the largest single shareholder in Mercedes-Benz maker Daimler last month after purchasing a 9.7 per cent stake in Daimler, via open market transactions.

[Ali tuck]

Lotus are a sports car manufacturer and have always been...surely they’re gonna give us sports cars that are Superior to the ones we have already?they struggle to Sell the excellent cars they make now,making something half hearted and lame will not increase sales,especially to new markets and to the existing owners who would like to upgrade.massive investment is happening so a golden opportunity to make world beating cars !

[scotty435]

Its very saddening that even the most ardent enthusiasts are so critical at a time when we all have not a clue what the company are going announce regarding new models, like I have said many times on this thread let’s have some patience give the company time to evaluate the fast changing market, let’s face it the last new cars even though not ground up new models 430 Evora/Exige and released a few years ago now where not a massive hit and some are even for sale as we speak in showrooms, lotus can not survive on limited runs of 60 cars. Let’s wait to next year if we don’t don’t like the path Lotus are going down I am sure we can all have our say when there is some meat on the bone.

[Barrykearley]

When’s the new esprit coming ??

[The Pits]

You might like to question why even the most ardent enthusiasts have concerns about Lotus’s future. I personally don’t think the new management are the right people for the job. Limited vision and little to no passion about focused sports cars, motorsport, Lotus heritage. Fortunately there are still a good number of other people at Lotus with all of that and my hopes lie with them.

However even if the place was being run by Gavan Kershaw and Russell Carr the opportunity to produce a game changing range of ICE sports cars may well have passed. In that event, Lotus may well need  purely commercially driven, dispassionate  corporate suits to keep Lotus relevant in a very different landscape. It’s great news for those looking forward to autonomous, electric Lotus cars, if survival at all costs is what matters then be prepared to accept the costs. Lotus in ten years time will either be gone or unrecognisable from what it was ten years ago.

The main reason that some great Lotus cars are still sitting in showrooms is because the brand is not aspirational to many of those who buy expensive cars. Until they fix that no new Lotus car will set the world alight. How do they fix that? Skoda did it by addressing the negative associations head on with great marketing, design, dramatic improvements in build quality and (to a lesser extent) motorsport. Not many will want to hear here it but to many Porsche owners a Lotus is about as desirable as a Skoda. Totally undeserved in my opinion, nothing but prejudice and ignorance but that’s the challenge. Convince them and your work is done.

But what a chance Dany Bahar had (and blew) at least for making the sort of cars I was hoping to see. Really he should have been marketing director to someone like JMG. He understood that Lotus had to become a badge people aspired to own. His deal to get the Lotus name back in F1 was very smart. He poached a quality control manager from Porsche. A great statement of intent. That issue has to be addressed. No reason or benefit for the new management to delay any quality measures they are taking. If they want to lead with Evija that’s fine but it will have to be a quantum leap in terms of quality of parts, materials and build. We should be hearing a lot more about that and how cars will be built at Hethel going forward. Absolutely crucial to get a message out there that next year’s Evora based car will be the best built Lotus ever - long before the car is actually launched. That’s what I would be doing anyway. Flimsy, lightweight lifestyle fluff is very low rent marketing, ineffective and dumbs down a brand of real substance which people should be looking up to, not down on.

[Jacques]

Some for years ago or there about, my wife and I was walking around in centrum of Bucharest in Romania, looking at the most expensive shops there. We passed by a ferrari fanboy dealership and when we went inside to take a look, we were met by a smiling friendly and not aggressive pushing female seller. Nice experience.

It so happened that the exxtension of that shop was a very small Lotus dealership. Naturally we went inside, an dit looked messy, dirty, with 9 people sitting at individual desks talking to eachother. Not even one raised and eyebrow and approached up. I eventually sat down an dlooked at the new edition of their mag.

I was nicely and propperly dressed in expensive clothing plus a black Lotus technical jacket, clearly stating Lotus. After some 10 minutes, I went to one of the representatives there, asking if I could hear more about their models presently for sale, buy the mag and if I could order spares for my Lotus. She looked confused, whirring her head and kept on talking to a colleague about her private life.

There was a poster here and there about new Lotus cars coming (the ones we never saw) and one Exige, two Lotus mags and two chairs for customers. We left.

The impression we were left with was an organisation that was not interested in doing bussiness, not interested in or trained to handle customers and we were treated as we were an insult to their little coffee-club.

I wrote to Lotus headquarters in the UK about the unfortunate experience, and got an apology. 1 year later, the shop was closed down.

I never say Porsche as a super reliable, more than others, sportscar, and have been experiencing this forst ahnd with a few griends 911 cars of various models. To me at least, said brand is not something to aspire to. Lotus have been doing some eclatant errors for many years, including an unseen lack of press, commercials and interest in selling their own cars. Way before Bahar, during Bahar and since Bahar. Another example is the silly deal their did with renting an expensive place that they never really used propperly, in Regent Street, occupied by a few youngsters who knew absolutel nothing about anything, save their own mobile telephone.

To sum it up, that seems to be part of the Lotus ethos for the last decade: clearly demonstrating their inability to market and sell their splendid sportscars.

In my humble oppinion, making a boring littel suv, electric or not, will not help that. That plan should have been working on full scale 10 years ago, when a Cayenne was sold every 10 minute. That was the time to milk that cow. Not now. The only thing going for it now adays, is a possible, not possible, chinese market.

As much as the Esprits that we know and drive plus Elise, Exige and the Evora, what ever is announced after that, seems pretty dead to me, and certainly not something interesting that could make my day in terms of an exciting new sportscar. Ther eare many car brands that understand how to make an ordinary people carrier. No need for Hethel to just copy that.

Kind regards,

Jacques

 

[Cypriot]

9 hours ago, The Pits said:

 

The main reason that some great Lotus cars are still sitting in showrooms is because the brand is not aspirational to many of those who buy expensive cars. Until they fix that no new Lotus car will set the world alight. How do they fix that? Skoda did it by addressing the negative associations head on with great marketing, design, dramatic improvements in build quality and (to a lesser extent) motorsport. Not many will want to hear here it but to many Porsche owners a Lotus is about as desirable as a Skoda. Totally undeserved in my opinion, nothing but prejudice and ignorance but that’s the challenge. Convince them and your work is done.

 

One of the biggest things Lotus needs to do is also to completely change the dealer network.  If they want to compete with the likes of Porsche, BMW or any modern manufacturer for that matter, they need brand new squeaky showrooms.  Buying a car is an experience which starts in the showroom.  How can you expect to attract new customers and to be aspirational when most of the dealers sell cars from warehouses, usually alongside other car brands.

[electro_boy]

Has there been any hints at when the all new Lotus will be out?  What are the current best predictions saying?

If it's 2 years from now, then I don't know if EV tech will have come on enough to make a genuine viable sports car so I think that will still have a ICE but maybe in hybrid form.

If its more like 4 years from now then the EV tech may have been developed enough to get the weight down and power density high enough so you can rag the car around the country lanes but still get a decent range out if it.  So I can see that one possibly being a full EV sports car.

[Barrykearley]

1 hour ago, Cypriot said:

One of the biggest things Lotus needs to do is also to completely change the dealer network.  If they want to compete with the likes of Porsche, BMW or any modern manufacturer for that matter, they need brand new squeaky showrooms.  Buying a car is an experience which starts in the showroom.  How can you expect to attract new customers and to be aspirational when most of the dealers sell cars from warehouses, usually alongside other car brands.

With high volume comes levels of dealer subsidies which can support this.

The second Lotus up the price by £5k all I see on here is bitching and moaning.

They really cannot do right for doing wrong in the eyes of the posters on here.

me - I love both my cars and didn’t buy new or from a dealers so my opinion is irrelevant.

my last new car/van, in fact my last 4, have all been bought over the phone, click to buy or in a heated financial negotiation in a dealers after looking online. Maybe I’m not a typical punter - but the thought of some slimey Porsche type salesman shoving his tongue as far as possible up my arse isn’t my idea of an experience 

[swindon_alan]

So your preference of the type of person to stick his tongue up your arse is...Barry?