Replacing pipes through the chassis on a V8... without removing the engine?

[cweeden]

Wash your mouth out Mr Sekinger, my car is not a parts bin on wheels. 😀

[johnpwalsh]

Come on then, the suspenders is killing us.

[Barrykearley]

Did it throw a con rod out the side and shit oil all over the road??

12 minutes ago, cweeden said:

Wash your mouth out Mr Sekinger, my car is a money pit on wheels. 😀

FTFY 

[fjmuurling]

The car made a big smile on your face

[cweeden]

That's the closest to deserving a beer.

 

 

 

It only went a passed an MOT !!! 🙃

I took it in to get a todo list without checking anything myself beyond the obvious and they gave it a pass. I am totally blown away.

I need to replace the top ball joints at the front since the gaiters are perishing but not urgent and the rear pads are a bit worn but that is it.

However that doesn't mean I think it is fit for driving too much, the alternator isn't charging the battery for one and the engine is not smooth at idle (you can't see what's in the mirrors due to the shaking) so I'd like to figure that out too (as my priority) but at least I could take it somewhere now if I choose to. Thanks to everyone for the help and encouragement, big boy pants seem to have made a difference!

cheers

-Chris

[mike_sekinger]

That's a confidence builder.  Good stuff.

[Barrykearley]

Nice one - triumph gt6 for the front top ball joints 👍

[cweeden]

So yesterday I decided to tackle another issue that has been on the back burner. I suspected my sports exhaust back box had a blockage due to the heat marks on the outside and poor running and I was pretty sure what the problem was and now I have proof.

I should state that this is not the box that has been on the car recently, over the years I have amassed a collection of three rear boxes, this one just happens to be my favourite. 

Here is the discolouration due to the heat build up...

 

Section removed...

The remains of a metal CAT wedged in the bend...

Close up of the mess removed...

So now I need some more 'stainless' gas for the mig welder to put it all back together again. 

[mike_sekinger]

Wow - this car is going to just fly after that lot is removed.  

[cweeden]

I remember the moment it all broke up (many years ago now), not all of it got wedged and the BMW behind me must have had a shock when a red hot brillo pad bounced off his bumper on the motorway in a good shower of sparkly bits. 

[superdavelotus]

Hi Chris,

I've been following your thread with interest, especially the water pipe issue. I don't know that much about the clearance issues that other people know about but I have been thinking about a solution. I haven't though this through properly so please don't shoot me down in flames.

How about pulling the old pipe out a bit at a time until it hits whatever (engine, fuel cross over pipe, radiator etc), then chop it off at the chassis end and pull some more out and repeat until all the old pipe is out. Replace with plastic plumbing pipe or other pipe with some flexibility to be able to insert from underneath. Is this possible? Can any experts on here confirm whether this could be a possibility?

As for your alternator, I had mine replaced as an exchange from a company in Manchester. They did an excellent job and the price was good too! I found them on Ebay and collected just to make sure it was the right one. I'll try and dig out the receipt and send it to you.

ABS will reset if it's the wheel sensors, sometimes my ABS light comes on when I reverse and then goes out once I go forward a few revolutions.

Running problems, your exhaust may be the culprit causing bad readings to your O2 sensors. It may have damaged one or two so check their readings are fluctuating on the voltages. If they aren't then that particular one may need replacing.

 

Regards,

 

David

[cweeden]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the comments. I should have added some updates.

The ABS cleared itself on the way to the MOT.
The blocked exhaust is a spare one and not on the car currently, it did cause a problem at the time so was not left on the car for long at all after the CAT failed and the O2 sensors have been replaced since.
I still think the pipe will come out with the engine in place, take out the fuel cross over pipe and try to flex the pipe below the chassis cross member and not above it. However the pipes don't flex much and reversal to install (assuming it worked at all in the removal direction) would likely be even harder. I'm not worrying about that for now since I ran a temporary pipe under the chassis.

cheers

-Chris

[cweeden]

Hi All,

A quick update, my primary target was to get the car going in time to collect Daisy my daughter from school before she finishes this term and moves to secondary school. Time marches on and wouldn’t you know it she finishes on Friday this week.

The MOT is in the bag, I had the old style V5 document so couldn’t tax it online. Monday I went to the post office and put in the application. I also insured it with ClassicLine (I looked at AIB but they didn't come back on the day they said they would and were a chunk more expensive too), not the cheapest but an agreed value policy aiming for £60k, not yet agreed, there is a process to follow and we’ll see what they think. I would be interested to get any views who think that is way off the mark.

Today the government website show the car as taxed, the final legal tick.

Now the car is not perfect (yet), the driveshaft seals are weeping, the alternator is charging but only just and the engine mounts are probably the cause of additional vibration through the cabin at idle to name a few items. However I have just fitted the sports silencer (odd name for something that does the opposite 😏) after welding it up at the weekend and it sounds much better. I will try it without the cats at some point too (see my other topic if you want one good original cat before I destroy it) but it does sound pretty tasty.

So today is the day, I just hope it makes it there and back in style, thanks for all the help and encouragement to get me this far.

cheers

-Chris

 

[cweeden]

Hi All,

So I need to crack on and have some questions which I am sure you will be able to answer.

I would like to try replacing the voltage regulator in the alternator rather than replacing the whole thing. Does anyone have any idea where I might get a replacement voltage regulator from or what part no I should be searching for? (big ask I know).

Any idea how to check the various parts that make up the engine mounts to know that they are in the right place in the stack and in the correct orientation? I assume I can just lift the motor a little to remove the long bolt and re-arrange the components as necessary? Unfortunately at the moment, the only way I can see to be sure I have all the right bits in all the right places is to buy new bits which add up to over 200 quid which I don't want to do unnecessarily (the main mounts were new 6 years ago).

The sports exhaust pops and crackles a bit on the overrun which sounds great but I don't think the CATs will be enjoying that too much. I want to try with the straight through CAT pipes but I have one empty one and one with a good CAT in it (nearside UK). I have put this up in the classified sections to swap for a failed one but no interest so far. I will knock out the internals if necessary but this doesn't sit well and I would much rather find a good home for it. Anyone?

Also to replace the drive shaft oil seals I would like to get a copy of the Lotus tool made up (I've borrowed this in the past and it makes the job much easier), does anyone have the dimensions please?

I think that's about it for now. :-)

Many thanks.

-Chris

[march]

36 minutes ago, cweeden said:

The sports exhaust pops and crackles a bit on the overrun

If this helps - I have a sports exhaust and it does not pop and crackle (unless the joints are leaking).

[cweeden]

Thanks Mark,

I'll check the joints and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a leak or two. I really don't like those 'knuckle' joints. That said I don't dislike a little pop and crackle. :-)

cheers

-Chris

[cweeden]

So I have managed to complete a couple of other jobs. The alternator wasn't charging the battery sufficiently so needed fixing. After reading up about alternators and how to test etc it seemed most likely that the bulk of it was fine and that perhaps the voltage regulator was the main culprit. When you consider the price of a new regulator vs a new alternator it was worth a shot. I pinged one supplier to see if he knew what part I would need but I wasn't able to give him enough detail before pulling the alternator from the car. So that is what I did. There is another helpful thread on here that talks about alternator replacement and @BobG 's comments were very helpful (thank you).

Unfortunately I couldn't get the car much higher than maybe 12" -18" off the ground. Once the alternator was out I contacted the supplier again with all the numbers I found and he spotted one which he could match and I ordered one from his ebay shop:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110496901026?ul_noapp=true

Here is the old one.

Fitting would have been straight forward if one of the regulator mounting screws hadn't sheared off, so I had to drill that out and re-tap the thread.

Re-fitting the alternator was a pain, it took several attempts to get it back past the chassis and into the void next to the engine where it can be rotated into place. Once in place the bolts are easy to get onto position and the lower bolt at BobG stated is easy, the top bolt has bugger all access.

However a loop of welding wire gripped the nut, some copper grease held the washer to it (I tried a magnetic arm to position the washer but it wouldn't let go of it once in position, so abandoned that approach), worked like a charm first attempt.

After that it was plain sailing and I am very happy to report an output voltage of between 13.6v and 14.4v. 🙂

I will post another update on the Forge wastegate actuator capsule adjustment and subsequent rebuild in a little while.

cheers

-Chris

[LotuStuart]

Great stuff. 

Could the regulator have been replaced in situ(if thread hadn't sheared)?

 

[cweeden]

Maybe, I did think about it but decided to pull the whole unit. I suspect there isn't enough clearance to get the cover off the alternator, the engine mount is right there. However it may have been possible to unbolt the alternator but not remove it from the space it occupies, then take the cover off and replace the regulator. Getting it out of the chassis and back in again were the most difficult tasks in all of this.

I did forget to mention one thing, despite making good volts now the battery warning indicator is still on, it glows dimly at 13.6v and more brightly as the volts rise.  Any ideas why its doing this?

cheers

-Chris

[silverfrost]

THhe regulator may be to blame as i am sure the red light also comes on when the alternator is over charging,  what voltage is is putting out at higher rpms ?  I would also take a reading direct from the battery as the gauges are not known to be the most reliable lol. 

[cweeden]

The reading is an OBDII output so I think it is pretty accurate, it may put out higher volts at the top end but up to about 3k or 4k is when I have seen the 14.4v. Reading up a little, it seems that up to about 14.7v is normal output for an alternator. I don't think this is overcharging, however the service notes (for four pots at least) states the light indicates a problem with the charging circuit, the question is what?

cheers

-Chris

[cweeden]

A quick update on some recent work and showing the fun after all the work that has been done so far.

While I was tackling the alternator I also pieced together the necessary bits and bobs ( a bulb pump, tubing and 30psi pressure gauge) to test the wastegate actuator setup and was quite horrified with the result. I have the Forge motorsport items which fortunately can be rebuilt. Connecting the hand pump with 'T'd off pressure gauge to the drivers side unit I could see it opening at ~4psi 20% short of the 4.9 - 5.2psi range stated in the manual but in my mind not terrible. The passenger side however opened at the same time as the needle on the gauge started to move which was pretty shocking. However this can be tuned by shortening the length of the actuator rod (and increasing preload on the spring in the capsule) to bring it into spec. The trouble was that once both were in spec there wasn't any movement (to speak of) left on the passenger side and only just acceptable movement on the drivers side so a rebuild was in order.

I bought a service kit for each and a single tuning spring kit (which I thought had two of each spring due to the picture but turns out they ship just one of each).

On paper the green spring is the correct one (and it turns out to be the case) but I wasn't sure at what level of pre-load that pressure is achieved and wondered if the purple spring may also do with less pre-load giving me choices over the amount of wastegate opening travel.

Now these capsules were bought for me previous V8 and transferred to the Sport 350 when I got it back on 2004 (I think) so they are now officially old and the allen screws did not want to budge without rounding the heads. In the end I had to cut slots in them with a dremel and use a flat screw driver to turn them. This made a bit of a mess of the aluminium body but they weren't much good if I couldn't replace the springs anyway.

Once open it became clear what the problem was, the rust on the spring retainer cap (the bit that looks like a piston) is all from the spring and there was a good pile of it in the capsule as well.

After cleaning and testing the green and purple springs it was clear that green is the correct one with 5psi moving the actuator arm about 1/4 to 1/3 of its total travel (from memory).

 

Once back on the car I tested again and although I didn't use a dial gauge to accurately measure the start of movement of the actuator arm I am pretty confident this is the closest to spec it has ever been. I will replace the drivers side spring (and recover some additional movement of the actuator) once I've returned the tuning spring kit for a green spring.

Yesterday I was able to test the car and all of the work so far at the Shere Hill Climb which is not a competitive event but an opportunity to have some fun legally. Here is a low res video of the car getting off the line on it's third and final run up the hill. It's at times like this I am glad it runs the stronger GTO gearbox internals and Quaife ATB.

There wasn't much grip at the start and on my first run I forewarned my son that I wouldn't spin the wheels to protect the car but it lit up like a dragster almost immediately with not too much encouragement. This run they are spinning until you can hear the revs drop a little as the wheels grip, then a few chirps as the motor gets into its stride with the proper boost kicking in. I had to change up as the dreaded tramping at the back started to kick in otherwise there was a little more to go before running out of revs. Soon after the start is the mother of ridges in the road that requires respect unless you fancy recreating an iconic moment from the Dukes of Hazzard which is my excuse for lifting and slowing you hear so soon after getting going. 😄

cheers

-Chris

 

 

 

 

[cweeden]

Here's a link to the video to make it easier to view. :-)

 

[andyblackman777]

On 18/06/2018 at 09:30, superdavelotus said:

Hi Chris,

I've been following your thread with interest, especially the water pipe issue. I don't know that much about the clearance issues that other people know about but I have been thinking about a solution. I haven't though this through properly so please don't shoot me down in flames.

How about pulling the old pipe out a bit at a time until it hits whatever (engine, fuel cross over pipe, radiator etc), then chop it off at the chassis end and pull some more out and repeat until all the old pipe is out. Replace with plastic plumbing pipe or other pipe with some flexibility to be able to insert from underneath. Is this possible? Can any experts on here confirm whether this could be a possibility?

As for your alternator, I had mine replaced as an exchange from a company in Manchester. They did an excellent job and the price was good too! I found them on Ebay and collected just to make sure it was the right one. I'll try and dig out the receipt and send it to you.

ABS will reset if it's the wheel sensors, sometimes my ABS light comes on when I reverse and then goes out once I go forward a few revolutions.

Running problems, your exhaust may be the culprit causing bad readings to your O2 sensors. It may have damaged one or two so check their readings are fluctuating on the voltages. If they aren't then that particular one may need replacing.

 

Regards,

 

David

David,

A year ago but,

Exactly what I was thinking!! The only problem would be how to attach the flexible hose. There is no flare at the end of the tube to stop the pipe just popping off. Maybe the end could be heated and pushed together a bit to make a ridge??

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[cweeden]

So I guess it is time for an update and possibly change the title of the thread. I still don't know if the pipes in the chassis can be replaced without removing the engine because the engine is out again. I decided it was time to take the plunge and renovate as much as possible in one long concerted effort. The plan is to rebuild the engine, separate the body from the chassis and refresh all of the running gear, tackle the radiators and as may rusted brackets, nuts and bolts as possible. I am going to blame @Mightymetro for showing me up for my lack of effort and tenacity.

So far the engine is out, partially stripped and everything including the heads and sump are off. I need to gather the Lotus specific engine tools and a few more generic ones before I can continue pulling it apart. In the meantime I have measured the bores and need some advice regarding the serviceability of the liners (although I think I probably know the answer). One of the tools I need to purchase is a 75-100mm micrometer so I cannot measure the actual size of the bores to know if they are grade A or B but I have been able to take relative measurements and see the variation of the bores.

Following the manual I decided to measure at depths of ~10mm, 30mm and 60mm and at three angles across the bore at each depth leading to a table of relative measurements, on its own it was awkward to read so I created a second table showing the variations (in mm) more clearly (ignore the colours). As you can see they do not seem to be very round but are fairly consistent up and down the bore.

              

Now the service manual states that A grade liners are 83.000 - 83.015 and grade B are 83.015 - 83.030, this suggests that the tolerances are very tight and seeing variation within on liner of over 0.030mm is not good and on that summation only liner #8 is worth saving. This is all despite the fact that all liners look really good with honing marks very visible and no ridges at the top of travel detectable.

So if I was just looking at them I would happily re-use the liners but on this evidence I don't think I should, what does the collective wisdom of the forum think, especially those with engine building experience ( @mike_sekinger, @CHANGES etc 🙂 ).

Many thanks. 

-Chris