Formula One

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Looking ahead I think it’s going to be very juicy and controversial in the next 3 races. Both MV and LH have seen points leads come and go this season. The pressure on both is intense. MV for his maiden Championship. LH for his record title. After last weekend, MV will be seriously worried.

As it stands, LH will win the title if he wins these last 3 races, 2 of which are on unknown tracks. If LH only wins 2 and MV the other, it will be MV’s championship, even if LH has fastest lap in all 3 races.

If they crash into each other and neither finishes a race, then that edges MV closer to the title. Two such events and it’s as good as MV’s championship. Obviously that assumes no points punishment/ban.

All 3 races are in the Middle East desert, so rain will not be a factor.

I think LH has to win the next race. Bottas cannot be relied upon to finish second, even in the fastest car. He does OK in qualifying and for a few race laps here and there, but rarely for the full race distance. 

Popcorn time?

[exeterjeep]

7 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

If they crash into each other and neither finishes a race

Seems a possibility in at least one race, if both qualify on the front row.

[PaulCP]

I didn’t realise that RB were given permission to amend their rear wing whilst Verstappens car was in parc ferme, nor that Hamilton was fined after the race for a seat belt infringement 

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-mercedes-diplomacy-ended/

https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-verstappen-decision-missing-footage/

Also, according to this, Horner thinks it’s ok to tun opponents off the track provided that there I’d no contact🙄

There is also an interesting comment about the analysis of Verstappen’s steering angles after the incident🤔

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-assessment-turn-4-clash/

[C8RKH]

I actually think the FIA needs to review the evidence and either "justify" the decision of the Stewards (and provide examples and evidence to back that up) OR, to apply a retrospective penalty against Max. They really do need to do two things:

1. Ensure consistency and fairness

2. Restore faith in the ability of the Stewards

Look at the analysis we had after Hamilton and Verstappen at Silverstone and the subsequent "analysis" from the FIA to support decisions etc. Why is it so quiet now?

I know some will view these opinions as shit from the arsehole, but hey, so what, it's a free country

 

[pete]

Mercedes have appealed

[tim_marra]

Good. Horner should get a reprimand too for his inconsistent babble and shite.

[Neal H]

Verstappen is cut from the same cloth as Senna & Schumacher - Win at any cost - fair or foul. Some may view that as the mark of a great champion, something that Max will undoubtably become.

Hamilton on the other hand is the most successful in history and has achieved it while being scrupulously fair. It’s what sets him apart.

[Bravo73]

 

[PaulCP]

After seeing that, and a still (which I can’t find now) it is clear that Hamilton’s rear wheels were in front of Verstappen’s front wheels during the overtaking move.

The video also shows that Verstappen didn’t change direction with the steering, but it also indicates that he failed to brake when he should have and as a consequence failed to make the corner.
The main discussion point then is was it a blatant attempt to use Hamilton’s car as a brake and hence take him out?

Apparently Max is blaming the failure to decelerate on his tyres. Well they were ok in the preceding 6 corners and the ones afterwards 🙄

[C8RKH]

Lewis was in front and had earned the corner. Max had no intention of "giving up" or of making the corner that is now obvious. Compare the position to the cars to Silverstone where Lewis was fully alongside Max and go back and look at what the Stewards and Horner had to say given that Lewis was, that time, on the inside. Look at the "noise" re how Lewis was at fault as he was never going to make the Apex? Lewis missed it by 6 inches or so, Max missed it by 10 foot and more!  I really do think when Horner looks in a mirror he must wince. Compare and contrast with what they are saying now. The only reason they did not collide and have a huge shunt is that unlike Max, Lewis knew what was coming, was ready for it, and reacted defensively. If he had done as Max at Silverstone, then they both would likely be in hospital.  That type of driving from Max might wash in the BTCC or Banger Racing, but it is not what I expect to see of the best of the best in the fastest cars on the fastest tracks.

Like Max, I don't care what anyone says but that was, in my humble point of view, a blatant, deliberate, calculated move by Max to "take out" a competitor with an illegal move. The "hard racing" takes place within the limits of the track, NOT OUTSIDE THEM. This is a well known "rule" that is often enforced by the Stewards and we hear repeated often.  When you look at the speed involved (remember what Horner said re Silverstone and speed a major consideration) and just how wide Max went, and forced Lewis even wider, then it seems to be pretty indefensible for the Stewards to have decided that no investigation was necessary given that Max had essentially lost the position, regained it in a reckless manner, and then gained a lasting advantage (yes, he was subsequently over taken by Hamilton but he should have, before then, been forced to give the position back even if no other penalty was given).  Plenty of other drivers have received a 5 second penalty or more for a less aggressive and dangerous move than that.  I do think that the FIA really does need to haul the asses of the Stewards over the coals for this one and Max needs to be given a stiff talking to and a retrospective 5 second penalty at the least.  There is no defence from this new video, it is blatantly clear that Max never had any intention to make that Apex / corner.  The guy will end up as the WDC, but he has no respect for anyone, and deserves none from anyone.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Bravo73

[electro_boy]

Just watched the sprint and normal race on catch up last night.

Woweee!  What a cracking weekend.  New engine or not that was an incredible drive by Hamilton in both races, it was incredible to watch.

Merc have to be quite a bit miffed at getting a penalty for their rear wing when others have been allowed to fix their infringements and also the decision on the overtake attempt at turn 4 lots of things not going in their favour that weekend.

I agree with David Coulthard that we need to see more hard racing like this and not go too the stewards all the time but you also have to change the rules to allow this.  In my opinion Max purposely failed to make the corner to prevent Lewis from overtaking which as far as I understand is not correct according to the rules we have today.

Next few races are going to be tight, fingers crossed that the engine in Lewis's car holds out and keeps producing good power and take Lewis to that 8th title.  I don't mind if Max wins the next one after that. 

[C8RKH]

8 minutes ago, electro_boy said:

I agree with David Coulthard that we need to see more hard racing like this

I agree too, but the hard racing needs to be on the Race Track, not outside of the track limits. And also, we should not need to go to the Stewards if the Drivers respect each other and the rules.  That was my point in the post above really. I am all for hard, close, tight racing. But the Drivers themselves know who can they rely on to race hard but fair, who is a c@nt and you need to beware of, and who is just incompetent or clumsy (not trying to single out Tsunoda here  )

[electro_boy]

Yes totally agree with you on that.

I just remembered Botas and Max's first corner,  I think that was another one where Max did his usual bully the other guy off the track move.  Botas preferred to live to fight another day and bailed out but I think he would have been within his rights to hold his position which would have ended up with the two cars colliding and quite possibly putting an end to Max's day.

People need to stand up to his bullying but when a DNF is a very high possibility its understandable why more people don't.  And when the stewards don't enforce it Max gets away with it and continues to do it. 

[C8RKH]

5 minutes ago, electro_boy said:

I just remembered Botas and Max's first corner,  I think that was another one where Max did his usual bully the other guy off the track move.  Botas preferred to live to fight another day and bailed out

If I was Toto I would be absolutely making Bottas' life hell right now and his arse would be red raw with spankings. He let Max through in the previous GP and then in Brazil he just needed to hold his ground and line and Max would have killed himself (metaphorically, not physically speaking of course).

[exeterjeep]

Perhaps replace him for the last races? 

[mg4lotus]

Mercedes also need to win the constructors championship in Toto's mind. So that will strongly influence his decision and strategy.

[drdoom]

On 16/11/2021 at 08:28, Neal H said:

Verstappen is cut from the same cloth as Senna & Schumacher - Win at any cost - fair or foul. Some may view that as the mark of a great champion, something that Max will undoubtably become.

Hamilton on the other hand is the most successful in history and has achieved it while being scrupulously fair. It’s what sets him apart.

It is utterly inaccurate to place Senna in the same bucket as Schumacher, as the video record has always well established. The 1990 first corner incident was Senna giving a well earned 2 fingers up salute in response to the appallingly corrupt call on the '89 Japan GP incident. FIA regulation thoroughly stunk back in those days. Have you viewed the recent biography of Schumacher on Netflix? Shows well the distinction, where MS would routinely chop into an overtaking rival ( as, by the way, did Prost in '89 ) whereas one cannot find footage of Senna putting a foot wrong in terms of car control in any of the fabled incidents, other than that of "90.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

So it’s historically been OK to deliberately crash into a rival if that means you win the championship? As long as you only do it once! 😆

[Chillidoggy]

Couldn’t resist posting this one.

 

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, mg4lotus said:

Mercedes also need to win the constructors championship in Toto's mind. So that will strongly influence his decision and strategy.

If Max had taken himself and Bottas out on Lap 1 then Merc would have increased their lead in the Constructors. Just saying....

[Mark Blanchard]

18 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

So it’s historically been OK to deliberately crash into a rival if that means you win the championship? As long as you only do it once! 😆

That incident in 1994 with Schumacher and Hill still makes my blood boil.

[Chillidoggy]

I seem to recall Shumacher tried it on with Jacques Villenueve, too.

[Neal H]

1 hour ago, drdoom said:

It is utterly inaccurate to place Senna in the same bucket as Schumacher, as the video record has always well established. The 1990 first corner incident was Senna giving a well earned 2 fingers up salute in response to the appallingly corrupt call on the '89 Japan GP incident. FIA regulation thoroughly stunk back in those days. Have you viewed the recent biography of Schumacher on Netflix? Shows well the distinction, where MS would routinely chop into an overtaking rival ( as, by the way, did Prost in '89 ) whereas one cannot find footage of Senna putting a foot wrong in terms of car control in any of the fabled incidents, other than that of "90.

It all kicked off between Senna & Prost when they were McLaren team mates in 1988 and were fighting for the championship. Portuguese GP at Estoril Senna leading Prost. Prost gets a run on him down the pit straight and Senna deliberately tried to squeeze him into the pit wall at 180mph to try and intimidate him into backing off. Prost went on to win the race, but was livid afterwards basically saying that if Senna wanted the championship so badly that he was prepared to risk their lives, he was welcome to it.

I can’t imagine Hamilton doing that. Max on the other hand…..

[pete]

On 16/11/2021 at 16:05, pete said:

Mercedes have appealed

https://racingnews365.com/mercedes-summoned-to-stewards-over-right-of-review-request

[C8RKH]

I'm getting some popcorn and cookie dough ice cream in for this one.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Bravo73