20 years sitting barn find. A few questions after first start

[1998v8]

This will be quite a long one so thank you to anyone willing to help. I found a 1998 v8 that had been sitting for 20 years. After all the usual stuff to get it to fire up (fuel tanks, fuel pumps, fuel filter coils, wires, plugs, radiator, fans, oil lines, water pump and so on I got it to start. It’s been driving for maybe 50-100 miles or so no problem, but over the past few days a few new issue have surface I’m quite stumped on. I’ll list them below 

 

hot start- didnt have any issues until a couple days ago. Now it either takes a while, or won’t start up at all after it’s hot. I replaced the ecu temperature sensor, and have secondary injectors on the way. Where is the main engine ground for the v8? Or a place to make an additional? I believe that would be my next go to. 
 

Bad power steering leak- I replaced the pump after the leak started, the seal on the high pressure line as well, and it is still leaking. Only seems to do so on the move when steering so it’s hard to tell where it’s coming from. I’ll post a picture of the area that is always wet, what I can’t figure out is that it’s away from both lines, and dripping off the bottom and back side closest to the head onto the timing belt. Both pumps leaked, and both in the same spot. I’ve had the pump off maybe 5 times trying to figure it out and it’s driving me crazy. I’ve replaced the o ring in the high pressure line with a few different ones too. 
 

choppy idle and overrun issues- When the car is started, cold or warm. It will idle horrible and after 5 second or so, like a switch is flipped it will come on line and idle perfect. Also, when letting off after wide open throttle it will do the same thing and sputter with loss of power until either 5 seconds has passed or I punch the throttle again. Then perfectly normal again. The fuel system is mostly new, pressure is good and pumps fully primed on startup. These have only started to get worse as miles have been put on as well. 
 

any help on either of these three will be greatly appreciated! 
 

 

[Barrykearley]

Hot start - super common - nearly always bad earthing to the engine. Easy to check - simply use a jump lead between battery negative and the engine block and see if she starts.

[Escape]

Good job bringing one back to life!

If an additional earth doesn't seem to help, have a look at the idle air control. Maybe it has gummed up with renewed use?

You also don't mention the timing belts. If not changes, I'd recommend you do. I recently was in a similar situation. The belts looked new and had hardly been run, but one of the idlers was very stiff and the other dry, so I changed the lot.

Filip

[Rambo]

Yes, I wouldn't be running it without changing cambelts  water pump, tensioners, idlers, alt. belt etc.....

Just a thought on your hot starting issue. I had this problem on my 1st Elan and it was due to vapourisation of the fuel.

[Steve V8]

Nice one Mitch,

Engine earth is attached to the chassis cross tube ahead of the sump. With a few ancillary earth's on the top of the Bell housing.

[LotuStuart]

Just here to say "belts" again.

(And nice!)

[1998v8]

Thanks for all the reply’s everyone. I forgot to mention the belts are done. One of the main reasons the car sat for so long is that when the car was purchased by the gentleman I bought it from. I think around 5 years ago, he started it up on starting fluid after maybe 15 of the 20 years of sitting and the timing belt slipped right away. He had a reputable shop replace the belts, but then the fuel system and tanks wouldn’t let him start it again and he lost interest. So the belts are not super old even though the car hasn’t driven in ages. I will still be doing them later on this year! 

[1998v8]

A little update. I cleaned, scuffed and re tightened all the grounds as well as adding an extra 4 gage ground as well. The car started while hot, but is doing what it had done. It will start and die unless you keep it alive with some revs. Then if you notice a few second after I started it and keep the revs up, it’s almost like something clicks and the car just immediately cleans up. Seems more electrical than anything. I’ll post a video. Just a heads up it’s 30 seconds long for anyone with limited data

[LotuStuart]

I’m guessing it’s linked to the fuel pump problem you had. Certainly where I would start looking. 
almost like the pumps have been Mis-wired? Primary and secondary power swapped?

 

[1998v8]

I was thinking it could be fuel but it has stable pressure and never drops off. The problem clears up so quick it’s almost like a switch is flipped when it clears. Which makes me think it’s more so electrical than fuel. I would think if the wires were flipped the car would still run the same though right? They are the same pumps, so as long as they’re submerged fully I would think they wouldn’t cause an issue 

[TAR]

A 5 year old set of belts that didn't turn a wheel for all that time. I'd be changing them quick smart. Just ask the owners of V8 engines that needed to be rebuilt just what an expensive nightmare that was.

And welcome to the forums  

[1998v8]

Pumps were pulled again and everything verified to be working. Both kicking on at the right time and holding pressure. The issue seems to be electrical. I doubt it’s a bad or leaking injector as the car clears itself up at the exact same time, every time. And it clears up quick. The iac was also cleaned when the plenum was off so I don’t believe that to be my issue either. i also pulled off the backing plate to the ecu to check for any leaking. All is well. I just don’t know what could be causing these two odd symptoms 

[Escape]

It sounds like the ECU is using cold start enrichment, even on a warm/hot engine. Which will flood the engine and make it harder to start. But as soon as the enrichment stops, things will be back to normal again. That would also explain why it is always after exactly the same amount of time.

[1998v8]

6 hours ago, Escape said:

It sounds like the ECU is using cold start enrichment, even on a warm/hot engine. Which will flood the engine and make it harder to start. But as soon as the enrichment stops, things will be back to normal again. That would also explain why it is always after exactly the same amount of time.

That would certainly make sense. Any ideas on why the ecu would be doing this? My first thought would be the temperature sensor below the plenum, but I did just replace that. With a cross referenced part that is. Maybe I’ll stick the old one back in and see if the problem changes at all 

[Escape]

I don't think the temperature sensor is a likely suspect, as that would probably show itself in all running conditions and not be so clear cut. Can't hurt to try the original one again.

I'm not that familiar with the V8 EMS, we'll have to consult the manual for the details.

[1998v8]

3 hours ago, Escape said:

I don't think the temperature sensor is a likely suspect, as that would probably show itself in all running conditions and not be so clear cut. Can't hurt to try the original one again.

I'm not that familiar with the V8 EMS, we'll have to consult the manual for the details.

Thank you! I drove the car a few times today and somehow it drove and started fine. I’m puzzled. We’ll see how that pans out over the next couple drives. I’m going to look at the power steering next and pray that it doesn’t come back. The leak seems to be coming from the press in 90 degree fitting on the side (brand new pump) which is unfortunate because I don’t think there’s any sort of seal on that 

[1998v8]

The leak has been confirmed to be the top cam seal just above the power steering pump. Great.. 

[1998v8]

Do the cams or cam caps have to be removed to push the new seals on? Or can they be done with the cam caps in place and the valve covers off? 

[mike_sekinger]

So it was engine oil not PAS fluid. A real pain the backside to have to disturb the timing belts.

The seals are pushed into place with the cams and caps installed.    Reference pictures are from an engine build, but you do not need to remove the cam covers as the timing pins are installed using the front cam cover bolt holes.

[Escape]

Bad news about the oil leak...

There is a silver lining though, you's want to replace the 5 year old belts anyway and that's over half of the work.

[1998v8]

7 hours ago, mike_sekinger said:

So it was engine oil not PAS fluid. A real pain the backside to have to disturb the timing belts.

The seals are pushed into place with the cams and caps installed.    Reference pictures are from an engine build, but you do not need to remove the cam covers as the timing pins are installed using the front cam cover bolt holes.

That is good news, I was assuming that I’d have to pull the covers to put a wrench on the cams to break the cam gears off of the cams though correct? I would probably pull them anyway as I’d like to put new injectors in the car and the plenum will have to come back off. The leak was very deceiving as the seals were not wet, and the only thing to have oil on them were the two lines headed to the power steering pump. I guess the oil dropped right onto the pump and flowed down the lines. I only confirmed this once I had  running the engine for a minute or so with the pump and accessory belt off to watch the seal. I’ll be ordering all my parts today, the only thing I’m having trouble finding is a belt frequency gage for less than $800!

[mike_sekinger]

It sounds as though your are best to combine your job lists and take off the top end.  It is safer to arrest the cams for sure.

Regarding the belt frequency, there was a great android phone app (Tune!It) that can be used together with a decent external low freq. microphone.  I did a back-to-back comparison with a Clavis and the app was within 1db.

Tune!It – Apps on Google Play

[Escape]

Gates also has a specific app for belts. Before I used Tune!It, but the Gates one seems more focused on belt frequencies and automatically gives you an average. So I'm using that now and find it more reliable.

[andyblackman777]

I wonder if your timing is out from the previous belt slip. that could cause your rough idle??

Or the alternator is on the way out maybe??

Good luck

[1998v8]

I got the car back together today. I changed coils, plugs, wires, injectors and so on with the timing belt and seals. The car feels like it gained 50hp and runs beautifully…. However I still see a leak from the drivers intake cam seal. I’ve changed countless cam seals in my time, and did everything exactly how it should be. I’m puzzled. I’m wondering if the cam has a defect or something as the leak is appearing on the bottom of the seal where it meets the cam. 1 step forward 10 steps back