Is electric really the answer?

[Kimbers]

But the ZEV mandate is a massive thorn in their side. All of them. Both in Uk which is even stricter and EU which has already extended their mandate to 2035.

Like the Sky News article says, one of the biggest problems is that Chinese companies can make the cars at half the price of European companies. So they are currently taking half the orders in Europe away form the existing manufacturers who then can't get anywhere near their mandate.

That being said the UK Govts Mandate is rediculous. Such a high % increase year on year. They keep asking us to take 20% EV and all the fleet companies refuse and they still do the deal for ICE cars anyway as they need to sell cars! 

I keep saying it. Massive changes coming!

[Kimbers]

Fiat boss warns Government of ‘electric vehicle crisis’ (fleetnews.co.uk)

[Mark Blanchard]

 

[DarrylV8]

Part of the Tesla tool kit 🤔

[mayevora]

I'm getting fed up of comments from people ridiculing EVs. They don't know what they're talking about.
Personally, I drive two top of the range EVs, a Jaguar and a Porsche.
Their acceleration and handling is fantastic. They look brilliant and they're really cheap to run. They need hardly any maintenance and haven't depreciated since I bought them. 
Literally the only criticism I could make of them is sometimes, if I really push them into a corner, they can fly off the track and get stuck under the sofa....

[Escape]

Sounds like you have one of these:

[exeterjeep]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c90zjne2v0jo

Electric car driver turned away from hospital car park told to park next to nearby grass because his car "could explode.

temporarily banned access to the car park while it improves its sprinkler system.

[jonwat]

Today's Times report:

One in ten electric cars are being sold for a discount of 20 per cent — and carmakers are so desperate that they are about to start offering free chargers worth £1,000 too.

A Honda that cost £37,052 a year ago is selling for £29,656, a reduction of 20 per cent, according to the marketplace Auto Trader.

Manufacturers are under pressure because rules that came into force in January mean they will be fined if 22 per cent of their car sales this year are not electric. The penalty is £15,000 per vehicle, although they can soften the impact by buying credits from rivals such as Tesla or if they exceed the quota in future years.

[jep]

It's a con. Now the government subsidies have finished in most territories, low and behold, manufacturers prices drop. 

Yet again, taxpayers have filled the bank accounts of the car companies. It happened with diesel, twice, and now electric. 

Justin 

[Mark Blanchard]

[Kimbers]

Your update from my trade Press. As you know I am not an advocate of EV's but especially the idiotic plan to Electrify Commercial vehicles with the load limits, mileage restrictions and lack of range that all that entails. Seems like the Trade are starting to agree with me after many trials have failed abysmally. You can't flog a dead horse and the politicians need to start listening to knowledgable people in the trade rather than the manufacturers who just pander to the politicians to get more money. If all Manufacturers just said "Nope, we refuse to make them anymore" and overnight stopped EV manufacture until the infrastructure, range, useability and technology is further reasearched (and they are honest about how bad they are for the environment) then what could the govts of the world do? Stop their economies? Pffft!:

 
Electric van demand falls
Deliveries of zero emission LCVs were down 42.4% in April, with the SMMT warning the ZEV target for 2024 will be missed.

[Escape]

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

If all Manufacturers just said "Nope, we refuse to make them anymore" and overnight stopped EV manufacture until the infrastructure, range, useability and technology is further reasearched (and they are honest about how bad they are for the environment) then what could the govts of the world do? Stop their economies? Pffft!:

Import more state owned cr@p from the PRC?

[exeterjeep]

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/ineos-boss-says-ev-demand-has-dried-up-as-he-calls-on-governments-to-rethink-electrification-plans/301561

Ineos boss says EV demand has ‘dried up’ as he calls on governments to rethink plans

Sir Jim Ratcliffe takes major swipe at EVs

Ineos owner calls for a ‘transition period’ between fossil fuels and greener alternatives

He also claims ‘you can’t give a second-hand electric car away in the UK’

[C8RKH]

On 08/05/2024 at 11:27, Kimbers said:

Your update from my trade Press. As you know I am not an advocate of EV's but especially the idiotic plan to Electrify Commercial vehicles with the load limits, mileage restrictions and lack of range that all that entails. Seems like the Trade are starting to agree with me after many trials have failed abysmally. You can't flog a dead horse and the politicians need to start listening to knowledgable people in the trade rather than the manufacturers who just pander to the politicians to get more money. If all Manufacturers just said "Nope, we refuse to make them anymore" and overnight stopped EV manufacture until the infrastructure, range, useability and technology is further reasearched (and they are honest about how bad they are for the environment) then what could the govts of the world do? Stop their economies? Pffft!:

 
Electric van demand falls
Deliveries of zero emission LCVs were down 42.4% in April, with the SMMT warning the ZEV target for 2024 will be missed.

And yet when I clicked on the link above for the Ratcliffe story this pooped us as the next story!  Part of the issue is this confusion in the market place....

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/could-electric-vans-be-the-next-big-revenue-stream-for-your-dealership/301381

[Kimbers]

A lot of it is a "Positive Spin". I know several Journo's (well people around me do) and they are constantly being bombarded by requests from Manufacturers and Govt organisations to only publish positive things about EV's.

I pity those who believe them, though they only tend to do it once, but for Vans its an income stream they get shafted on.

Incidently, My new Peugeot Partner Diesel 1 ton van, fully laden averaged 57.6mpg and did 600 miles without missing a beat or needing any fuel!

Conversely the E-Partner we tested had a "Claimed range" of 170 miles (Empty with the wind behind us) and actually managed a staggering 107 miles on a motorway with a half load. 

On my 600 mile trip that means I have to add another just under 5 hours to my trip Just for charging!! And that's if the charger is free!

How useable is that in real life?

Oh and here's an article backing up my figures (nearly). They say 120 miles but subject to conditions.

https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/electric-van-leasing/peugeot/e-partner/

[Bibs]

Long distance - Diesel

Local - Electric

Job's a peach. 

[Kimbers]

I don't know any companies who use vans who do under 100 miles a day even multi drop deliveries. 

Commercial EV isn't viable for 99% of uses.

[C8RKH]

I agree @Kimbers hence the "irony" in that article and my comment re the disinformation that is being constantly spread.

[mik]

Lengthy post warning.

Mrs mik has run a launch-edition E-Tron 55 for 3.5 years. She was really keen to get an EV, so we got an EV. Generally it’s a superb thing, with tech that all works and integrates well. It’s fast and extremely quiet, rides very well (air sus) but it’s not particularly efficient, and doesn’t therefore have a great range. Charging at home for normal daily use is awesome. Charging on the public network for longer journeys is pretty dismal. No revelations there.

It’s now 3.5yrs old with just over 30k miles on the clock. I took it for a “larger car task” last month. 25 miles from home on an A-Road the car suddenly sang out some loud warning chimes whilst flashing up “Electrical System Fault – Safely stop vehicle!” followed immediately by a 4WD system fault message, and then a warning related to the drive system, with “Limited Performance Available”.

Audi’s definition of “limited performance” actually translated to no performance whatsoever, so I was lucky to be able to pull up safely at the entrance to a rural driveway. Once stopped I decided “actually I’ll shuffle it forward 2m to give the house owner more space to get in and out”. Nope. Zero drive.

A quick look underneath - fluid was leaking out towards the front of the car – not a very pleasant smelling one. 

Called the AA and asked that they just send a flat-bed. Zero drive. 2.6 tonne car. Fluid leaking – it’s not going to be possible to do a roadside repair. Computer said no, so I waited 3hrs for a patrol to arrive, who looked at it, sniffed it, and said “I’m not even going to touch it mate”. 🙄 Another 75mins for a sub-contracted flat bed to recover the car to their holding yard for delivery to the dealership on Monday morning, and mrs mik came to pick me up. In the Evora. A car she has driven for a total of approximately 1.5 miles, when I got it 8 years ago.…erk. 😐

Luckily she, the Evora, all of it's gearbox ratios, and all originally fitted pistons & valves arrived unscathed. Phew. 🙂

E-Tron is 4wd of course and has motors both front & rear. Audi took a look and confirmed that the front motor had lost all coolant. Unfortunately that doesn't require a seal and refill, it renders it junk. Yes the entire motor unit. 😬 A new replacement motor is <tap tap tap> £6.2k fitted.

Thankfully I had previously opted to extend the 3yr manufacturer warranty (full cover for a very reasonable price), so this was a warranty job with courtesy hire car. Like really thankfully.

Some people might suggest however that this doesn’t appear to be a particularly good advert for EV’s. I might agree with them. A quick web search suggests that – whilst its a long way from being a “common” occurrence - we aren’t the first E-Tron owners to suffer this issue. It also appears to be an ongoing low-level problem for Tesla and presumably all other manufacturers who use fluid-cooled drive motors. Which triggered me to go and learn a little more.

I'm still scratching the surface as opposed to diving deep, but I understand that in order to maximise (particularly continuous) output, manufacturers are deploying motor cooling circuits that go around the stator (sounds absolutely fine, and that was what I expected), past the electronic controls (erm - probably ok, but wasn’t aware of that) and through centre of the rotor itself (blimey – definitely wasn’t aware of that). 

The first two seem straight forward in terms of keeping coolant appropriately isolated - in a similar way to the water jacket around an IC engine. The latter however appears to require “mechanical seals” that run on the main shaft of the motor. I know a bloke who works on ship engines (amongst other massive power units) who assures me that these types of seal are common, and generally extremely reliable, but I suspect that they might have a harder time in EV’s in terms of rapid heat cycles and speed changes (?)

Below is an Audi motor graphic (front & rear E-Tron), but I believe Tesla (and others) are similar.

So the point of my post? EV’s are still pretty new tech, so we remain on the lower slopes of understanding in terms of longer-term running issues. I think most folks are pretty aware of battery longevity concerns, but I have to admit I assumed the motors would last the life of the car (in as much as the vast majority of IC engines last the life of the car). Full motor swaps are clearly (potentially ruinously) expensive and quite some way from eco-friendly.

The push towards EV is going to require development/creation of new skills/businesses to perform preventative maintenance (such as motor coolant seal replacement), or refurbishment of failed units that the manufacturers aren’t interested in getting into (you might suggest it’s not in their interest to get into that type of activity). Tens of decades of IC engines means we have specialist places that can strip & refurb IC engines, gearboxes, diffs, but it's not yet there for EVs, and if that doesn't change we may be looking at a lot of EVs deemed uneconomical to repair at a fairly young age.

I’ll be extending the warranty on the E-Tron again this year, but at some point Audi won’t offer that any more.... 😶

[oneshot]

Watching the programme about the highways agency and they were attending an accident on the motorway involving a Tesla. It had smashed into another car and was stuck in the middle of the motorway with all traffic stopped.

The highways people had been instructed that they couldn't touch an electric vehicle. Also the police in attendance said they couldn't touch an electric car. 

So the whole motorway was stuck until a specialist recovery truck arrived to take it away.

Had it been an ICE car they would simply have pushed/dragged it to the hard shoulder.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, mik said:

Lengthy post warning.

Brilliant, informative, unbiased post. I learnt a lot from that. Thank you.

[Kimbers]

3 hours ago, mik said:

Lengthy post warning.

Mrs mik has run a launch-edition E-Tron 55 for 3.5 years. She was really keen to get an EV, so we got an EV. Generally it’s a superb thing, with tech that all works and integrates well. It’s fast and extremely quiet, rides very well (air sus) but it’s not particularly efficient, and doesn’t therefore have a great range. Charging at home for normal daily use is awesome. Charging on the public network for longer journeys is pretty dismal. No revelations there.

It’s now 3.5yrs old with just over 30k miles on the clock. I took it for a “larger car task” last month. 25 miles from home on an A-Road the car suddenly sang out some loud warning chimes whilst flashing up “Electrical System Fault – Safely stop vehicle!” followed immediately by a 4WD system fault message, and then a warning related to the drive system, with “Limited Performance Available”.

Audi’s definition of “limited performance” actually translated to no performance whatsoever, so I was lucky to be able to pull up safely at the entrance to a rural driveway. Once stopped I decided “actually I’ll shuffle it forward 2m to give the house owner more space to get in and out”. Nope. Zero drive.

A quick look underneath - fluid was leaking out towards the front of the car – not a very pleasant smelling one. 

Called the AA and asked that they just send a flat-bed. Zero drive. 2.6 tonne car. Fluid leaking – it’s not going to be possible to do a roadside repair. Computer said no, so I waited 3hrs for a patrol to arrive, who looked at it, sniffed it, and said “I’m not even going to touch it mate”. 🙄 Another 75mins for a sub-contracted flat bed to recover the car to their holding yard for delivery to the dealership on Monday morning, and mrs mik came to pick me up. In the Evora. A car she has driven for a total of approximately 1.5 miles, when I got it 8 years ago.…erk. 😐

Luckily she, the Evora, all of it's gearbox ratios, and all originally fitted pistons & valves arrived unscathed. Phew. 🙂

E-Tron is 4wd of course and has motors both front & rear. Audi took a look and confirmed that the front motor had lost all coolant. Unfortunately that doesn't require a seal and refill, it renders it junk. Yes the entire motor unit. 😬 A new replacement motor is <tap tap tap> £6.2k fitted.

Thankfully I had previously opted to extend the 3yr manufacturer warranty (full cover for a very reasonable price), so this was a warranty job with courtesy hire car. Like really thankfully.

Some people might suggest however that this doesn’t appear to be a particularly good advert for EV’s. I might agree with them. A quick web search suggests that – whilst its a long way from being a “common” occurrence - we aren’t the first E-Tron owners to suffer this issue. It also appears to be an ongoing low-level problem for Tesla and presumably all other manufacturers who use fluid-cooled drive motors. Which triggered me to go and learn a little more.

I'm still scratching the surface as opposed to diving deep, but I understand that in order to maximise (particularly continuous) output, manufacturers are deploying motor cooling circuits that go around the stator (sounds absolutely fine, and that was what I expected), past the electronic controls (erm - probably ok, but wasn’t aware of that) and through centre of the rotor itself (blimey – definitely wasn’t aware of that). 

The first two seem straight forward in terms of keeping coolant appropriately isolated - in a similar way to the water jacket around an IC engine. The latter however appears to require “mechanical seals” that run on the main shaft of the motor. I know a bloke who works on ship engines (amongst other massive power units) who assures me that these types of seal are common, and generally extremely reliable, but I suspect that they might have a harder time in EV’s in terms of rapid heat cycles and speed changes (?)

Below is an Audi motor graphic (front & rear E-Tron), but I believe Tesla (and others) are similar.

So the point of my post? EV’s are still pretty new tech, so we remain on the lower slopes of understanding in terms of longer-term running issues. I think most folks are pretty aware of battery longevity concerns, but I have to admit I assumed the motors would last the life of the car (in as much as the vast majority of IC engines last the life of the car). Full motor swaps are clearly (potentially ruinously) expensive and quite some way from eco-friendly.

The push towards EV is going to require development/creation of new skills/businesses to perform preventative maintenance (such as motor coolant seal replacement), or refurbishment of failed units that the manufacturers aren’t interested in getting into (you might suggest it’s not in their interest to get into that type of activity). Tens of decades of IC engines means we have specialist places that can strip & refurb IC engines, gearboxes, diffs, but it's not yet there for EVs, and if that doesn't change we may be looking at a lot of EVs deemed uneconomical to repair at a fairly young age.

I’ll be extending the warranty on the E-Tron again this year, but at some point Audi won’t offer that any more.... 😶

Excellent post, but think about the average driver who knows nothing about mechanicals and likely wouldn't extend the warranty (80% don't) because they are told EV's are super reliable and efficient.

Now add in your cost to replace the motor vs what your car is worth (virtually nothing as its an EV and they are still plumetting in value) and you can see why so many larger companies refuse to use EV's.

2 hours ago, oneshot said:

Watching the programme about the highways agency and they were attending an accident on the motorway involving a Tesla. It had smashed into another car and was stuck in the middle of the motorway with all traffic stopped.

The highways people had been instructed that they couldn't touch an electric vehicle. Also the police in attendance said they couldn't touch an electric car. 

So the whole motorway was stuck until a specialist recovery truck arrived to take it away.

Had it been an ICE car they would simply have pushed/dragged it to the hard shoulder.

Fire have recently announced they need a minimum of 4, but preferrably 6 fire engines for accidents involving EVs. Whereas with normal ICE cars their Standard OP's are no more than 2.

The EV policy is costing more and more in hidden costs that people don't know and this is starting to be reflected in Insurance premiums, Council Tax and eventually RFL I suspect, top pay for all the extra damage done.

[C8RKH]

Like everyone, I will have an EV at some point in the future. However, it will NEVER be stored in my garage, and never parked right next to my garage or house due to the fire risk 

Extreme view? Maybe. But precaution is the best strategy.

Manufacturers are, predictably, calling on the Government to bring back subsidies so they can sell more EVs as the market for them continues to dive.

Personally, I think that would be about as wise an idea as making Truss PM again 

Manufacturers need to drive down the costs of their vehicles and focus on range, rather than ludicrous performance times for 2.5 to 3 ton barges. They need to build EVs that the mass public want to buy, can afford, and don't have to worry about range.

Tune the battery performance systems for max range and efficiency.

I've just done 787 miles on a full tank of Diesel that cost me £91. I didn't need to worry about range, or stopping to recharge, and still have a range of 62 miles showing left. I doubt those miles in 2 days, away from home, would have been as cheap, or stress free in an EV, paying around 60 pence per KWH to recharge.

Manufacturers don't need subsidies to sell EVs, they need to build to market demand. That's their job and raison d'etre.

Governments need to put the money into supporting infrastructure. Provide interest free debt using the infrastructure installed as collateral, for instance. Far better use of public money, with less risk, than just providing self employed business directors with a cheap way to buy an overtly outrageous luxo barge of an EV that will depreciate and lose value quickly.

We never seem to get it, in this country. Infrastructure, good quality, sustainable, and with longevity, is one of the best uses of public money to oil the wheels of manufacturing and commerce. Infrastructure supports the creation of new money and wealth. Subsidies, meh, might as well just burn the £50 notes on a bbq as there is no repeating, or sustainable,value.

Time to get back to some goold old Victorian thinking and values. That made Britain an international powerhouse and transformed the lives of ordinary people for generations. We need a modern version of Victorianism!

Too bad Parliament seems full of clowns and entitled, selfish, twits 

[exeterjeep]

https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/ford-losing-100000-ev-report-says

 

Ford cuts battery orders as EV losses top $100,000 per car

As EV prices have plunged, Ford’s losses per EV exceeded $100,000 in the Q1, more than double the deficit from last year, a source told Bloomberg.

 

[exeterjeep]

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/new-electric-suv-now-50000-cheaper-2024-lotus-eletre-price-slashed-as-the-electric-car

New electric SUV now $50,000 cheaper: 2024 Lotus Eletre price slashed as the electric car price war hits the luxury newcomer as it prepares to take on super SUVs such as the Lamborghini Urus and Porsche Cayenne Turbo