Israel-Gaza war

[PaulCP]

You are 100% correct @LotusLeftLotusRight, Hamas gave Netanyahu the opportunity and the World condemned Hamas for their actions & backed Netanyahu in responding.

However, the sign of a true leader is knowing when to stop and not going too far. Netanyahu went way beyond what was reasonable a long time ago. He has put himself into an impossible situation now, he cannot win!

[Bibs]

You do have to wonder what they were thinking - it was never going to have a good outcome for them and I'm sure globally everyone has seen Netanyahu as the bully he's become, the civilian toll is an outrage. 

[C8RKH]

I do wonder whether he has become a war criminal and it will be interesting to see if he is held to account by the international community and courts.

[Kimbers]

The issue is they HAVE gone too far. They know that as much as everyone else.

Know what that means? "Well, we might as well finish the job!"

But I would ask you to consider that everyone knows Hamas is deeply entrenched in Gazan society. Even some of the Aid workers there took part in the October attacks and that's been confirmed! The fact they just killed (if you believe them) over 200 Hamas fighters in their Hospital siege/attack shows they still haven't finished the job they set out to do.

But don't believe the hype of Israeli civilians marching demanding they stop, there was only a tiny % of their population at the last one and the majority of their citizens still support wiping Hamas out by any means.

I don't think its over sadly, no matter how much pressure the rest of the world put on them.

[Bibs]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cg4qx62kkxxt

Does it make much difference to us if they are escalating this? 

[C8RKH]

Oh yes, it makes a huge difference.

Netanyahu is running his own agenda and is prodding a bear with large teeth in his cave.  This could get very ugly very quickly. His government is running on hubris and arrogance and it has gone way too far. I'm actually really worried about where this is going.

 

[chipp]

Looks like mayhem in the skies on flight radar, loads of flights in the region diverting.

[pete]

And nothing from the British or American government 

[Kimbers]

I'm flying to Cyprus in a week!

[Chillidoggy]

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

I'm flying to Cyprus in a week!

In a C130, or a Blackhawk?

[Bibs]

Tomohawk

[pete]

Why are the RAF shooting down missiles

[Bibs]

Starmer has told us that we 'Stand With Isreal'. Personally, I think we'd best of leave out of it. If Hamas strike back at us, I believe that means they've had a pop at the whole of NATO and that doesn't end well. 

[C8RKH]

No idea @pete but we should not have boots on the ground, mariners in the sea or pilots in the air.

Netanhayu is directly responsible for this escalation and we should back off. IMHO Israel is way, way, out of line here and the death toll is just not justifiable. 

[DarrylV8]

3 hours ago, pete said:

Why are the RAF shooting down missiles

The government doesn’t appear to know if UK armed Forces have shot down any missiles. First reports last night we had, early today we hadn’t.🤔

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Does seem a remarkably inefficient way of waging warfare. The Iranians have sent hundreds of missiles and drones across to Israel during the two attacks. Hezbollah has fired nigh on 10,000 rockets into Israel. All they have managed to achieve so far seems to be one dead Palestinian.

[C8RKH]

One dead anyone is one death too many.

[Kimbers]

I think they should stop immediately until 21st October. Then they can start again and I won't be in Cyprus or flying to or from Cyprus.

And that really is the level of my "Am I Bovvered?". Because they are all as bad as each other. It's truly pathetic that they hate each other because of their race, religion and history. And I mean both sides as well.

I also feel we have no right to complain about either sides atrocities when we started several wars and destroyed whole countries and infrastructures after 9/11 and destabilised the whole area!!  Iraq was like a stopper in a bottle and we soon pulled that stopper, and Libya and Afghan etc etc.

Lets not forget this started with Hamas killing over a thousand mainly young people. How far did we go when they killed 3500 in the twin towers?

[drdoom]

Forest versus trees, all this parsing over the sordid minutiae of war. Though rough and somewhat ugly may have been the founding of Israel it was for eminently justifiable cause. That the subsequent history of that has been tragic falls squarely on the shoulders of bloody minded men who prefer murder over coexistence. None of these ensuing tragedies and atrocities can be fairly considered except in this context. 

[C8RKH]

It's a mess @kimbers for sure, but it is bordering on genocide, and not all Palestinians are terrorists and not all Israeli's support this level of retaliation and bloodshed.

My own belief, not that it is worth much, is that this is yet another example of a man using war to bolster his position at home and put off the inevitable day of reckoning.

Shame should be felt on both sides, equally, for allowing it to get to this. And yes @kimbers, HAMAS did commit an atrocity against the people of Israel, but my god the way the Israeli's settlers have violated and pushed out ordinary Palestinians from their homes and land before, during and after this, is also an atrocity.

We have plenty to be ashamed of ourselves, from the past, I am not denying that either. But a retaliation that has killed 42,000, and injured or maimed 100,000, many of them women and children, is hardly proportionate.

As a race, we humans are despicable to our core.

[drdoom]

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

It's a mess @kimbers for sure, but it is bordering on genocide, and not all Palestinians are terrorists and not all Israeli's support this level of retaliation and bloodshed.

My own belief, not that it is worth much, is that this is yet another example of a man using war to bolster his position at home and put off the inevitable day of reckoning.

Shame should be felt on both sides, equally, for allowing it to get to this. And yes @kimbers, HAMAS did commit an atrocity against the people of Israel, but my god the way the Israeli's settlers have violated and pushed out ordinary Palestinians from their homes and land before, during and after this, is also an atrocity.

We have plenty to be ashamed of ourselves, from the past, I am not denying that either. But a retaliation that has killed 42,000, and injured or maimed 100,000, many of them women and children, is hardly proportionate.

As a race, we humans are despicable to our core.

I resemble that closing remark?

This is not a matter of retaliation, rather one of standing up to a publicly declared commitment to genocide of the Israeli people. It's clear where lurks the enduring pestilence in the Middle East.

[Barrykearley]

And the underlying issue in all of this - religion.

one man arguing with another about who’s imaginary mate is the best. Utterly pathetic. 

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

And the underlying issue in all of this - religion.

one man arguing with another about who’s imaginary mate is the best. Utterly pathetic. 

Couldn't have put it any better myself. Organised religion is just about power, control and wealth. Whether Christian or not, they all, in the end seem to be the same and they all lead to wars, bloodshed and death.

[C8RKH]

10 hours ago, drdoom said:

This is not a matter of retaliation, rather one of standing up to a publicly declared commitment to genocide of the Israeli people. It's clear where lurks the enduring pestilence in the Middle East.

I totally disagree. This action is as much about Netanyahu's need to show he is strong and divert attention from his other issues as it is anything else, imvho. He's been opportunistic and is seizing what he see's as his chance to crush opponents in the region. It's cynical as much as it is an emotional response to the repugnant Hamas attack.  

Are you really telling me that every one of the 42,000 dead, and 100,000 injured, Palestinians, were committed to the genocide of the Israeli people? What propaganda have you been reading? In many parts, Israeli and Palestinians lived peacefully together and worked alongside each other in harmony. There are Israelis' protesting and striking, outraged by the carnage, in Israel. There are many Palestinians who want absolutely nothing to do with Hamas.

As ever, there is a small minority that sow the seeds of hatred, fear and division. The retaliation has been indiscriminate, always "justified" by crass sayings like we are using pinpoint targeting to avoid civilian casualties, and yet, the figures suggest otherwise. Look at the carnage in the Palestinian towns and cities. The devastation. The restriction of aid and supply of medicines, food, and water. How is that different to the ghetto's of Poland for instance 80 years ago?

The hatred and division is sown on both sides. On one side you have the terrorists that are Hamas, who are cowardly as they use their own people as shields. But then you have the far right Israeli's who have run Palestinians out of their homes. Bull dozed their homes and villages. All whilst under the gaze and the protection of the Israeli army, with little and often no repercussions for acts of violence, shooting of unarmed people, or death. Is it any wonder that some Palestinians, affected by this, are easily radicalised?

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" - quite an apt phrase for the situation in the region where ALL sides have been aggressors and instigators over the years, and the West's involvement has only inflamed things as we followed our own agenda around power, control and wealth.

The only losers, as in every war, are the innocent civilians who find themselves caught up in the struggle for power, control, and wealth of a minority of greedy and obsessed men.

 

[DanR]

Some Historical background info: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

And the "sanitized" update of 2017: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

And finally on the influx of Jewish settlers from around late 19th century:  https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/World-War-I-and-after