Future of Lotus

[Bravo73]

Don’t worry, @Winter, we all suspect that Geely will take Lotus to where you want them to be. £150k+ cars. 

[Breeze]

It seems that with all these changes going on that a lot of time, money and effort has been wasted. There was talk only a few months ago of the next new car being an Elise replacement, and presumably a fair bit of work has already been done on that project. It now appears that has all been kicked into touch As there is now no further talk of a new Elise.  Perhaps they have decided that they no longer want an entry level car, or the position from Alpine or Mazda would be too difficult to beat. I still think that while it would be good for lotus to have a halo car, like the old Esprite V8, they would be foolish to try to compete with Porsche, Ferrari and McLaren. There has to be a very good slightly sub-supercar niche market.  Whatever, I wish them well for the future. I'm very happy with my current car, which is my 8th Lotus, I will probably by a runout Evora, before they get replaced by something heavy, hybrid and with batteries. After that, we'll have to see.

 

 

[silverfrost]

I would wish for Lotus to be at both ends of the Market. 

I wish they had an entry level little sports car that was far cheaper than what is on offer atm.  

And the top end I feel is already climbing looking at an advertisement for the new exigencies was 99.000 sterling ! 

Esprit has to be on offer.  It was one of the main things that put lotus on the map other than the motor racing.

They need to take large chunks from the old Esprit with a modern touch on them.

Black louvres,  modern decent size replicas of the Speedine or BBS wheels.

Sharp lines etc. 

The last Esprit design could of been badged a Lambo as it did not scream Esprit.

[Snoopy1969]

34 minutes ago, Breeze said:

It seems that with all these changes going on that a lot of time, money and effort has been wasted. There was talk only a few months ago of the next new car being an Elise replacement, and presumably a fair bit of work has already been done on that project. It now appears that has all been kicked into touch As there is now no further talk of a new Elise.  Perhaps they have decided that they no longer want an entry level car, or the position from Alpine or Mazda would be too difficult to beat. I still think that while it would be good for lotus to have a halo car, like the old Esprite V8, they would be foolish to try to compete with Porsche, Ferrari and McLaren. There has to be a very good slightly sub-supercar niche market.  Whatever, I wish them well for the future. I'm very happy with my current car, which is my 8th Lotus, I will probably by a runout Evora, before they get replaced by something heavy, hybrid and with batteries. After that, we'll have to see.

 

 

@Breeze But - and this is a BIG but - if your current SR is niggle free (maybe after sorting out some minor things as the most of us I guess...) do you think the "upgrade" or Change is worth the additional money? Whenever I had been thinking about something in that direction my conlusion was that if you have an Evora that "behaves" well a Change would not make sense (and I am not talking of even personal taste, esp I like the int of the S1 f a r  more.....) If you have a decent S SR it would tka you more or less  around € 100 k for the "upgrade"......more than the S SR cost when it was brandnew...... 

[Chillidoggy]

On 22/05/2018 at 13:50, Buddsy said:

They might struggle with that.

With the amount of work about at the minute finding a company that would accept 120 days terms may well be a challenge.

Coupled with wanting to pay the least possible...They just dont have a great reputation (at least locally) of valuing suppliers something they might need to change if they want to find new ones.

 

buddsy

 

My Company terms are 30 days, we just couldn’t stomach 120 days, it would kill the cash flow, and put us out of business. I don’t know anyone who could live with that, and, quite frankly, there’s no reason for companies not to pay up within 30 days, indeed I think it’s should be the law to do so.

[Spinney]

33 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

 

My Company terms are 30 days, we just couldn’t stomach 120 days, it would kill the cash flow, and put us out of business. I don’t know anyone who could live with that, and, quite frankly, there’s no reason for companies not to pay up within 30 days, indeed I think it’s should be the law to do so.

I absolutely agree with that. In my industry, the norm is for payment 60 days from end of month so could be as much as 90 days if you've delivered a job on the 1st of the month. We always pay our creditors in 45 days so get preferential treatment as a result. I believe it is the law in Denmark that all sales invoices must be settled within 30 days - no argument, so I don't see why this couldn't be introduced in the UK too. Would make business life so very much easier for small companies.

[Chillidoggy]

34 minutes ago, Spinney said:

I absolutely agree with that. In my industry, the norm is for payment 60 days from end of month so could be as much as 90 days if you've delivered a job on the 1st of the month. We always pay our creditors in 45 days so get preferential treatment as a result. I believe it is the law in Denmark that all sales invoices must be settled within 30 days - no argument, so I don't see why this couldn't be introduced in the UK too. Would make business life so very much easier for small companies.

Pretty sure it’s been discussed at government level before, and we get the usual trumpeting about how they’re gong to fix the problem, but for some reason that’s as far as it’s got. And yes, I think you’re right, it’s law in Denmark. We’ve been forced into getting Company credit cards as some suppliers move away from the traditional 30-day accounts and now want payment up front. Either that or they issue pro-forma invoices and wait for us to stump up.

We always credit check clients first these days, too.

[PhilT]

WRT the 'future of Lotus' and the esprit - back in the day (rose tinted?) all esprit variants were in my eyes amazing (actually still are), but for some time now I am struggling with / I am a bit lost as to what / where a new esprit would sit in the market place because in the mean time... 1. motoring press put anything from Porsche in 1st place and 2. the niche the esprit used to fill (world's best handling, mid-engine, British car) now under pressure from McLaren / Audi R8 / Noble? Isn't McLaren where Chapman would want Lotus to be? State of the art facility / cars etc etc - the problem they (McLaren) have got is that they can't win the F1 championship and build exceptional road cars at the same time...there are only two companies in history that have ever done that consistently.

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by PhilT
mistake!

[mdavies]

6 hours ago, Breeze said:

It seems that with all these changes going on that a lot of time, money and effort has been wasted. There was talk only a few months ago of the next new car being an Elise replacement, and presumably a fair bit of work has already been done on that project. It now appears that has all been kicked into touch As there is now no further talk of a new Elise.  Perhaps they have decided that they no longer want an entry level car, or the position from Alpine or Mazda would be too difficult to beat. I still think that while it would be good for lotus to have a halo car, like the old Esprite V8, they would be foolish to try to compete with Porsche, Ferrari and McLaren. There has to be a very good slightly sub-supercar niche market.  Whatever, I wish them well for the future. I'm very happy with my current car, which is my 8th Lotus, I will probably by a runout Evora, before they get replaced by something heavy, hybrid and with batteries. After that, we'll have to see.

 

 

The issue of Car magazine currently on news shelves contains JMG’s “last Lotus interview".  It seems to be very little mentioned here.  In it, JMG describes Geely’s plans for Lotus - as he then knew them of course.  The entry point will be an equivalent of a cross between the current Exige and the current Evora.   The price range will between £70K and £150K.  So bye-bye Elise, if that is the case.

Very happy with my Evora S SR for now - and it seems likely the future too.

[PhilT]

Please no, that's throwing away what Lotus has achieved and the legend it has created with the Elise.

[KAS-118]

1 hour ago, mdavies said:

The issue of Car magazine currently on news shelves contains JMG’s “last Lotus interview".  It seems to be very little mentioned here.  In it, JMG describes Geely’s plans for Lotus - as he then knew them of course.  The entry point will be an equivalent of a cross between the current Exige and the current Evora.   The price range will between £70K and £150K.  So bye-bye Elise, if that is the case.

Very happy with my Evora S SR for now - and it seems likely the future too.

 

45 minutes ago, PhilT said:

Please no, that's throwing away what Lotus has achieved and the legend it has created with the Elise.

I have to agree with PkilT - they should try keep something at the £35k range

[swindon_alan]

3 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

Pretty sure it’s been discussed at government level before, and we get the usual trumpeting about how they’re gong to fix the problem, but for some reason that’s as far as it’s got. And yes, I think you’re right, it’s law in Denmark. We’ve been forced into getting Company credit cards as some suppliers move away from the traditional 30-day accounts and now want payment up front. Either that or they issue pro-forma invoices and wait for us to stump up.

We always credit check clients first these days, too.

I also ran my own (IT company) for eight years Ian, so I have been there. Cashflow was always a bloody hideous nightmare and the wasted hours spent chasing debtors must be a huge drain on national admin productivity. I certainly never want to have to do that again.

[internets]

Thought this video was quite interesting showcasing some of Geely and their brands at Goodwood

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Wow if Geely are going to those sort of lengths to celebrate 11 years of co-operation with Shell, then they must have something incredible lined up to commemorate 70 years of Lotus!

[NedaSay]

10 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Wow if Geely are going to those sort of lengths to celebrate 11 years of co-operation with Shell, then they must have something incredible lined up to commemorate 70 years of Lotus!

In my humble opinion they could just reopen Motorsport. This would be the perfect way to celebrate ah and paint a pair of GT430 in Lotus racing green, do away with all the cabin non essential, homologate the car for GT3 or 4, slap some Shell stickers on it along with some Michelin stickers, and go compete! Perfect way to celebrate in my opinion. That and a huge bash during the Lotus Fest and the presentation of a new variant of the Evora at Goodwood preferably a top less one but maybe I'm asking too much.  

 

They mostly did this thing to up the ante on Geely's brand perception in Europe. Geely is gearing up for a global blitzkrieg in the next 3 years they are going to attack in quick succession the EU and US market. Geely is just letting us know that they're coming and it's a very cheap way to do it, guns blazing but still holstered kind of thing.

[Bravo73]

FWIW, the GT4 race car is quite a different beast to the GT430. Please don’t be sucked in by the JMG BS. Those days are over (hopefully). 

[NedaSay]

You over read... I said transform the GT430 into a GT4 and homologate. According to GT4 rules, it is totally possible to homologate a GT4XX because GT4 only accept engines in their for sale spec configuration. 

[Bravo73]

To ‘transform’ a GT430 into a GT4 would involve changing the engine and then putting it in a different position in the car. And then cage it etc etc It isn’t quite as straight forward as the ‘race car for the road PR/BS’ would lead you to believe. 

[NedaSay]

Hum no! GT4 rules are clear engine is to be spec, by spec I mean it is the road homologated engine end of the story, position in engine bay must remain identical to road spec, GT4 is not GT3 nor GTE,  GT4 is anybody getting his sports car homologated for GT racing. You don't change the engine position in a GT4. You get to play with it a bit, but you must retain engine block, engine mount, some internals can and will be upgraded to fit race purpose. Here is a pic of the GR-FE in GL spec (360bhp) in its craddle.

Lotus obtained a waiver for the Original Cosworth GLA as the engine was in its original type and position.  However they increased displacement to 4.0l as they could do it without changing the internal layout, the engine was normally aspirated and received the big Cossy airbox and the car were fitted with Xtrac gearbox that was derived from WTCC in order to match exactly the original layout of the Evora. They still had to obtain a waiver for that.

 

As per SRO Motorsport Group  - 2017 GT4 European Series (available here)

 

Quote

 

ARTICLE 5 : ENGINE

5.1 Type and position of engine

The make and type of engine used must remain original, unless by a waiver of the SRO GT4 Bureau. The position of the engine, the location and orientation must remain original.

ARTICLE 9 : TRANSMISSION

9.1 Transmission system

The gearbox must comprise a maximum of 6 ratios and a reverse gear. The interior of the gearbox is free. The number of teeth and ratios homologated in the Technical Form must be retained. The joints of the gearbox are free. The gear selection grid pattern homologated on the series model must be retained.
Sequential gearboxes are forbidden in GT4, unless by a waiver of the SRO GT4 Bureau.

For cars fitted with a semi-automatic or automatic gearbox and with 6 ratios or more, and/or a power-driven clutch with electronic or pneumatic control, a waiver of the SRO GT4 Bureau can eventually be granted. By this the Technical Delegate may at any time oblige the competitor to use the reference unit(s) registered with the SRO Motorsports Group by the manufacturer or tuner.

For safety reasons, the transmission must be designed in such a way that if the car is stopped and the engine is stalled, it is possible to push or tow it.
If needed, a protection for gearbox components can be authorised, after approval by the SRO GT4 Bureau.

9.2 Reverse gear

All cars must have a reverse gear which, at any time during the event, can be selected while the engine is running and be used by the driver when seated normally.

 

 

On my side of the pound VSA Motorsport has upgraded their GT4 to 400 spec by the end of last year.  They can race with the Edelbrock supercharger as it is chargecooled and is deemed "spec to the car". As is the car can race in SCCA and World Challenge GT4 category because the engine is set as spec - Just like the 570S can race with its twin turbo setup - they don't race due to lack of budget which saddens me.

As for all the other parts needed to build an Evora GT4 based on the GT430, I believe they still have all the stuff they need to build them at the factory. The motorsport shop is still standing as far as I know and they still have the guidebook to build the cage. Lotus Racing (aka Motorsport under DRB) used to sell the GTN kit to whoever was willing to buy it back in the day, the brochure for it is still available on the web.  Now homologating the GT4XX to GT4 spec again is not a simple walk in the park but the only things really needed here is intent and funding.

The Evora GT4 was an Evora chassis fitted with a FIA rollcage, a  lightweight body, a Cosworth GR-FE, an Xtrac gearbox, a Sparco race seat and a cabin stripped of everything safe for the extinguisher. But the Chassis was an Evora chassis, it was not the monster chassis that Ycom built in record time for the 2012 Le Mans 24.

[Bravo73]

🤦‍♂️ 

Rather than just thinking that you know it all because you can read it from a rule book, have you ever actually seen an Evora GT4?

[NedaSay]

YUP.

[Bravo73]

Well, then you’ll know that the engine is in a different position. It effectively sits where the rear seats are - well within the rear axle line, not on top of it. The bulkhead is right behind the driver’s seat. 

And as for the Cosworth engine being similar to the road going version... 

 

Anyway, enough of this thread drifting. Back to the regular programming: £150k+ cars from Geely Lotus. 

[NedaSay]

I'll keep my opinion about what you just said to myself... But find it saddening that you think that a version cannot be recreated or updated because you don't buy the PR. Back on topic. 

[Vulcan Grey]

@Bravo73

I think you are thinking of the Evora that ran in the GTE class at LeMans and in the ALMS series.

The GTE race car was very different, often describe as being more like a prototype, and did have the engine moved more into the rear seat area.

 

 

 

 

 

[ChrisJ]

Stupid question: what's the gold thing, and why is it gold?

Something to do with the air I'd guess.