Type 130 - Lotus Evija

[Likuid]

Great article. I think the author will eventually get what they want from Lotus. As the Lotus CEO said, "The Evija is a statement of intent." I am sure Lotus talked about this a lot. I think starting at the top and whittling down is the better way to go. You create a poster car, you gain attention back to the brand, and you can trickle the tech and knowledge learned down to the new Esprit, Evora and Elise-like cars. Not just electrical knowledge and tech, but aerodynamics, interior, ICE, production methods, etc. I think if Lotus unveiled a new electric Elise. Even if it looked great, and great specs, etc. you just wouldn't get the attention from the mainstream media or even mainstream car media that Lotus wants. I mean, I have seen Lotus on CNN and Bloomberg recently. IMO there is no way they make it on such shows and publications with just a new Elise.

I get it, I am not super patient either and would have rather saw something closer to my affordability window, but from a business stand point I think this is the right way to go. It makes me more excited to see what they can take from the Evija and put in more "affordable" models in the future. Hopefully we will see some combustion engines in the mix as well. Plus with the new mid engined C8 throwing a wrench into the sports car market it will be interesting to see what Lotus and other brands do to differentiate themselves. Mid-engined sports cars are about to get way less exotic once you see C8s on every corner. Time to start thinking outside the box.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Likuid

[Steve V8]

I tip my hat to Russell Carr and the design team at Lotus...has there been some kind of divine intervention from the tips of those Hethel pencils? 

With the Evija we have witnessed a huge leap forward in hypercar and automotive design, I haven't been this exited (and shocked) about a car since they unveiled the Lamborghini Countach 48 years ago. 

Well done Lotus/Geely you are now the benchmark.

[Jeanvm]

I was thinking the same thing, I compare this with the time as when the Miura and Countach were launched.

[Techyd]

For me, kind of an odd article.  Trying to re-make a point that's been tried before.  Manufacturers build what people buy.  The Toyota GT86 was a car they thought people would be want by the bucket load - with the emphasis on lower power and superb handling.  It was critically acclaimed.  It didn't sell that well.  It wasn't what people wanted.  Similar applied to the Honda CR-Z, which was a great little car again - a bold experiment by Honda, responding to a trend they thought was emerging but which wasn't.

What the article does lend itself to though, perhaps without meaning to is that it shows EV is not the answer - but it is responding to the market.  The engineering issues of EV haven't been overcome, shy of some wondrous invention or a change in the laws of physics.  I'm not usually pessimistic but I think we're a few generations away from that sort of thing.  By then of course, peoples expectations (and memories) of cars will have changed and so will the way these things are evaluated.

Naturally, anything is possible in the future, right but I think all we'll really see is a jump in price points to a level of un-affordability for the masses combined with a new system of buying a car and then buy your batteries to go in it (probably lease your batteries).  Oh and Mercedes product range will comprise more models than there are species left in the rain forest.

Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells were a much better proposition, despite its own challenges.

That being said, its clear the Evija will be a huge accomplishment for Lotus, and a very capable vehicle with its technologies and concepts filtering down the range...just minus the affordable bit.

[NedaSay]

This conversation belongs more to the future of Lotus but thread I don't know if  we'll see a price jump in our lifetime, I do think that the so called Vision 80 is fairly conservative in terms of price variation, it does include, a halo hypercar and did so from the get go, but for the rest it is pretty much Lotus' own and time delayed version of Porsche development from the early 90's with a few variation and much higher tempo.  Porsche was able to stretch its brand thanks to part sharing  components with its group brethren  back then... Well a thorough look at Evija will show you that Lotus is gearing up to do just the same ; If you look at the Evija seats, well they are a volvo designed seat, not a Recaro, a Sparco or Sabelt but Volvo's own concept seat:

Lotus made it look racier by exposing the carbon shell and playing with paddings, but it is very much the same seat that Volvo has been developing with for a while. I do think the same happened  with the AC vents, they are pretty with that aluminium piece of trim but I could sware I have seen this very vent design on some Geely products.

The Evija being a halo product it will enjoy maximum level of "bespokisation"  but all future models, while retaining a good amount of Lotus design will incorporate a lot of Geely group DNA. The devil will be in the details but the Volvo Geely parts bin will be raided over and over till Lotus find the exact part they need. Some of it maybe on display for all to see and will be fettled with to look the part (engine, gearbox, seat, toggles...) but most of it will be away from prying eyes (AC/HVAC system, pumps and other angine/gearbox anciliaries, wiring loom...)  and will be wholesale dropped  into the lotus chassis to perform their job. So there would be economies of scale and marginal gains made that would make pusching the price up secondary.

But back to Evija, I do think that the design team was at its best, and that the engineering team really pulled  it out  of their ... to engineer that marvel,  Now CMC will have to deliver the chassis  and the factory floor crew will have to hone their skills to assemble this beauty flowlessly, but that is the way things have always be done at Lotus assembling parts of various provenance to create something special and this time we can say  truly special. Now I know Lotus has been working with Prodrive on their carbon fiber body parts but has the factory been upgraded so that they can now produce them in house?

 

[C8RKH]

Hydrogen fuel cells are coming. They will exploit the existing infrastructure (garages), peoples unconscious behaviour (i need fuel I go the garage), and protect the current business models.

In Aberdeen, SGN has modified its existing gas network to take hydrogen from offshore to the bus depot to power emission clean buses.

I've said this for a while but EV will be localised, hydrogen will be national. EVs are the Betamax. Hydrogen the VHS.

[swindon_alan]

Musing. Will there also be a place for hydrogen ICE then? Also greenie friendly and I still get to have suck bang blow and an exhaust note. I find hydrogen fuel cells rather old school and slightly concerning. After all, Apollo 13's plumbing went pop big time...

[Likuid]

Aren't hydrogen fuel cell cars essentially EVs? Instead of power being stored in batteries it using electrons from the hydrogen atoms?

Also I am not convinced with hydrogen, mainly because electricity is everywhere. People can fuel EVs in their own homes. This is a huge advantage over liquid fuels. Hydrogen may be most common element, but its also very combustible.

There always seems to be trade offs no matter which way you go. No perfect solutions (yet).

Edited July 23, 2019 by Likuid

[Techyd]

13 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I've said this for a while but EV will be localised, hydrogen will be national. EVs are the Betamax. Hydrogen the VHS

Great analogy!  So what will be the Blueray! 😉

 

[C8RKH]

Nuclear fusion powered hover cars! 

[Techyd]

haha yeah - Mr Fusion right?!

 

[C8RKH]

Very back to the future! 😁

[Bravo73]

9 hours ago, Techyd said:

Great analogy!

What, that EVs are technically superior and will be used by industry professionals for years to come. But the poorer format, hydrogen fuel cells, will have the greater popular uptake? 

[Likuid]

Actually it may be the other way around. EV may be a mainstay for your normal consumer because of its ability to allow you to fuel your car at home and the access to electricity. Hydrogen may be better for professional applications such as buses and trucks.

[Bravo73]

I think that I probably extended the Betamax/VHS analogy a touch too far. 

[Bee]

You've touched on the elephant in the room, which everyone seems to avoid mentioning, at all costs, whenever EVs are discussed. Long before 8-10 years, many batteries are going to hold less charge, drain more quickly and lose available power and range. The car industry is being forced into making vast investments to make the 'electric dream' a reality, and I think one way they intend to recoup that costs is to vastly reduce the lifespan of future models and/or provide £multi-thousand battery replacements, likely with not-inconsiderable fitting fees, not to mention charges for taking away/recycling the old ones. So many (especially younger) people buy cars on hire agreements, far beyond the quality and type of models they would have been buying only a few years ago; I think car manufacturers are counting on future generations keeping cars for 2-6 years and then upgrading. Despite what we hear about battery technologies improving, the second and third owners of many of those cars are in for a shock (if there's enough charge left in their batteries to provide one!)

[swindon_alan]

Of course the other elephant in the room is the charging infrastructure. A handful of EVs fine but we would (probably) need to double the capacity of the National Grid and power sources if the stupid things became widespread.

I get the point about hydrogen being "dangerous" but the energy packed in a cc of petrol is pretty astonishing as well. We manage to not blow ourselves up with that and have done successfully for many years. Hydrogen liquid would have to be at very high pressures or cryogenic temperatures for transport and fuelling to be liquid - with associated extra costs perhaps - but once it is in the car in a ruggedised tank then it must surely be comparable.

Hmmm. Fuel injection conversion to hydrogen. I might do my V8...

[electro_boy]

1 hour ago, Buddsy said:

After watching a recent top gear where the 8 year old 65k miles Leaf was a write off due to now having a 45 mile battery range has got me questioning the idea of battery life and the recycling of a knackered old battery. Can you change the battery? How much will it cost? Can the old one be re manufactured? or is that it?

Yes you can change the battery in a car but depending on which car and which size battery you have it can cost any where from ~£7k to ~£30 to replace so doesn’t really make financial sense.  Costs may come down when more independents start offering the service rather than main dealers but it’s still going to be a huge cost.

You can’t really break them up and recycle them either so currently we have either stick them in land fill or reuse them in things like a battery bank for your home. Charges up during the day with solar power and then discharges during night time powering your home to reduce your electricity consumption.  As your home doesn’t move things like the poor power density matter less when the battery is old and past it’s best.  But that’s still not a great solution to the problem. 

I fear that the manufacturers are providing just enough life and warranty on the batteries for the first owner to have confidence in their purchase.  But subsequent owners may have to pay for expensive battery swaps to get a reasonable range from the battery.  

[ramjet]

Guys, I looked at moving some of these replies to a specific topic about EV etc, but there is an overlap of topics here between the Evija and EV, hydrogen etc. If I moved things there will be a hole. 

Let's keep on topic about the Evija here and take the EV/H2 replies somewhere else? Maybe here?

[Likuid]

5 hours ago, swindon_alan said:

Hmmm. Fuel injection conversion to hydrogen. I might do my V8...

I think some people here are hoping for hydrogen because they think its going to work like gasoline. I would suggest looking up how hydrogen fuel cells actually work, which if hydrogen became a thing it would be likely use the fuel cell method and not the combustion method. It would still be an EV, but using hydrogen for the electric instead of energy stored in batteries. Also, as of now, creating H2 is very expensive and would require very large tanks to get long range. Hydrogen combustion also creates Nitrogen Oxide, which is not good. Its not a green house gas, but still not good for us. Here is video comparing combustible hydrogen to hydrogen fuel cells: 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Likuid
Sorry posted this right after Ramjet, I will go back on topic

[C8RKH]

@Likuid - not me. I am aware of the issues with Hydrogen but remember it is one of the most abundant elements on the planet.

No go and look at the environmental impact of battery chemical/element extraction, the mammoth consumption of rare earth metals etc and tell me again how green EVs really are?

There's a whole lot of spin and the agenda for some is about wealth creation, exploitation and power (sic) and sweet FA about the environment etc as the people who really profit live in luxury in smart locations.

[The Pits]

Yes Evija has been designed so that the battery pack can be removed, replaced and upgraded as battery tech improves.

[C8RKH]

There is no doubt the headline grabbing figures for the Evija are outstanding. I have a sneaky suspicion that Lotus have been conservative and the production versions will surpass customer expectations re performance, and I reckon in quality too.

I'd hate to think of the cost of battery replacement but if you can afford a £2m toy you can surely afford the Duracel's to run it😂🤣

[swindon_alan]

Ha ha perhaps they should have christened it the Ebunny..?

[C8RKH]

The Type 130 Evil Bunny more like.