Formula One

[exeterjeep]

45 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

even a red flag.

I remember many years ago, when there was a red flag at Monaco, the guy leading was able to change his tyres on the grid before the restart, the car behind had just mage a stop just before the red flag, Someone on the coverage said he thought that they were going to change the rule, but it was not changed. I would have thought Lewis would have known that. I suppose things even out over the season when cars stop and then the safety car is deployed.  Just mad a hell of a difference in the race.

[PaulCP]

Does anyone know if the Netflix ‘Drive to Survive’ series is still being made this season.

If it is then it is certainly going to make interesting viewing, although I’d probably want to throw a brick at the TV when Baby Spice Horner is on😠

[TdM]

15 minutes ago, exeterjeep said:

I remember many years ago, when there was a red flag at Monaco, the guy leading was able to change his tyres on the grid before the restart, the car behind had just mage a stop just before the red flag, Someone on the coverage said he thought that they were going to change the rule, but it was not changed. I would have thought Lewis would have known that. I suppose things even out over the season when cars stop and then the safety car is deployed.  Just mad a hell of a difference in the race.

 

2011 Alonso on fresher rubber quickly chasing down Vettel (in a Red Bull no less) on worn rubber heading towards closing stages. Red flag, Vettel changes tyres, tension over race ruined. 

[EldonZ]

That is one thing that I like about racing in the US, during the Red Flag, the competitors are NOT allowed to touch the car. I have seen this happen to some pretty famous drivers and in some pretty famous situations. When it has happened, either the driver was sent to back of line or was DQed.

Later,
Eldon

[drdoom]

4 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

 

Had a look at the RBR facebook page for a few minutes, and there seems to be more people blaming Lewis for everything....

Pinheads.

[gregs24]

Seems the FIA don't agree with them! I know who I believe - the people with the actual car data or an uninformed keyboard warrior!

[gregs24]

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

This is my criticism of Massi and why I believe his position is becoming untenable. He "stepped" in and "offered" a deal to Red Bull to keep Max in contention, when actually Max should have been given a 5 second penalty on the restart which would have effectively put him at the back of the field. Max would then have had to fight his way through to around 5-7th place to be in with a running chance of winning the WDC in Abu Dhabi.  This is what should HAVE happened if the rules were followed....

But instead they did a deal to keep Max in the race for the WDC.

F1 is fast losing it's credibility as an "honest" sport with the sports rules being totally discarded.  Take the Brazil issue and the 1st/2nd corners - Max says but Lewis didn't make the corner either on both counts - well, how the fook can you make the corner when the guy up the inside refuses to make any attempt to make the corner and so you either (a) crash into them and lose everything or (b) go off track and steer even further asway to avoid contact. Max's style is basically just to ramrod anyone in his way, or trying to over take him, off the track and then basically use a childish defence of "he went off the track too" when he knew there was no other option.

This is not racing, this is just glorified dodgems.

If you look at the post race sit down interviews. Max is basically saying "fook you all, that's how I race, stop giving me a hard time and making an issue out of it" and Lewis is saying "what are we supposed to do, as if we try to race him he just punts us off track".

The sport is just becoming a bit of a farce right now, and how Verstappen was not disqualified for accelerating, braking, accelerating, whilst weaving then brake checking Lewis is beyond me. They have the all the data to prove this. If I was lewis I'd have been thinking "what the fook is this crazy shit doing, he's just going to punt me off". You can see again in the post race interviews how bemused lewis is with it all.

Actually the 'deal' that was done was entirely normal. If a driver has overtaken 'illegally' then they get an opportunity to give the place back before it is reported to the stewards. Because the race had stopped this was effectively done via grid position, Masi was simply giving RBR the option to give the place back on the new grid. He made it very clear that they could take this option or it would go to the stewards in the normal way. RBR wisely chose to take up the suggestion. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by gregs24

[TdM]

I would say it's a bit more nuanced than that.

If racing would have continued, it's unlikely that they would have had the opportunity to give the place back as Ocon had got between them. The reason Ocon was now ahead of Hamilton was directly due to Max's actions. This means that at the restart even dropping Max behind Lewis still doesn't change the fact that the illegal action had a lasting impact on the race and the championship rival's position.

Negotiating track positions at a restart is far from normal and I don't think it has ever happened. The sensible option for the stewards is apply a penalty. They have no way of 'resetting' what happened which is the point of the 'give a place back'. If they can't reset it then it makes sense that you must apply a penalty for causing the current issue.

[C8RKH]

6 minutes ago, TdM said:

The sensible option for the stewards is apply a penalty. They have no way of 'resetting' what happened which is the point of the 'give a place back'. If they can't reset it then it makes sense that you must apply a penalty for causing the current issue

I totally agree. The penalty should have been applied.

[Sizona]

2 hours ago, PaulCP said:

Does anyone know if the Netflix ‘Drive to Survive’ series is still being made this season.

If it is then it is certainly going to make interesting viewing, although I’d probably want to throw a brick at the TV when Baby Spice Horner is on😠

Yes its being made this year...definitely looking forward to seeing the shenanigans

[Techyd]

55 minutes ago, gregs24 said:

Actually the 'deal' that was done was entirely normal. If a driver has overtaken 'illegally' then they get an opportunity to give the place back before it is reported to the stewards. Because the race had stopped this was effectively done via grid position, Masi was simply giving RBR the option to give the place back on the new grid. He made it very clear that they could take this option or it would go to the stewards in the normal way. RBR wisely chose to take up the suggestion. 

Yes that is very true - but the style of his comms is in now way authoritative.  He was not clear where Lewis would be in the position swap, in fact he implied a drop from 1st to second (a swap with Ocon)).

"Option 1: Give position back - for illegal move which would result in Ocon 1st, Hamilton 2nd, Verstappen 3rd

Option 2: Don't give position back, and I refer to the racing stewards where you will be subject to the usual racing penalties

You have two minutes to discuss and come back to me."

Easy 🙂

[Neal H]

Just make the penalty system real simple. If the stewards decide a driver has broken the rules give him a drive through penalty. Penalties for rule breaches are far too random.

A crash between Verstappen and Hamilton at the final race is inevitable. This championship is going to be decided in a Paris court room some time in 2022.

[C8RKH]

59 minutes ago, Neal H said:

A crash between Verstappen and Hamilton at the final race is inevitable.

I suspect you might be correct. But I really wish you are not. 

I suspect we will see Verstappen positioned on the straight to take the inside line, Lewis forced to go round him, and then punted off the track by Verstappen whose tyres have suddenly "gone off" and he had no grip about 3/4's of a mile from the apex. Just a theory. 

[PaulCP]

Interesting that Masi’s views of the bargaining which took place between himself and the teams differ completely from the comment by Horner in his interview after the race that “such a discussion was unprecedented”

However, it is more interesting to carefully watch the 5 second clip in the report which, in my view (happy to be corrected), shows that Verstappen slowed, accelerated then slowed again and when Hamilton looked to get past Verstappen moved from the outside of the track to the middle to cut the space out with a slight weave thrown in

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.fia-race-director-masi-explains-key-decisions-in-crackling-saudi-arabian.2HDDnrVBySFFmiefIndbSr.html

[gregs24]

15 hours ago, Techyd said:

 

 

16 hours ago, TdM said:

I would say it's a bit more nuanced than that.

If racing would have continued, it's unlikely that they would have had the opportunity to give the place back as Ocon had got between them. The reason Ocon was now ahead of Hamilton was directly due to Max's actions. This means that at the restart even dropping Max behind Lewis still doesn't change the fact that the illegal action had a lasting impact on the race and the championship rival's position.

Negotiating track positions at a restart is far from normal and I don't think it has ever happened. The sensible option for the stewards is apply a penalty. They have no way of 'resetting' what happened which is the point of the 'give a place back'. If they can't reset it then it makes sense that you must apply a penalty for causing the current issue.

But then how often has there been a standing restart after an on track move worthy of a penalty. There have been plenty of cases of shuffling the pack under a safety car to get the right order.

15 hours ago, Techyd said:

Yes that is very true - but the style of his comms is in now way authoritative.  He was not clear where Lewis would be in the position swap, in fact he implied a drop from 1st to second (a swap with Ocon)).

"Option 1: Give position back - for illegal move which would result in Ocon 1st, Hamilton 2nd, Verstappen 3rd

Option 2: Don't give position back, and I refer to the racing stewards where you will be subject to the usual racing penalties

You have two minutes to discuss and come back to me."

Easy 🙂

Isn't that what he said ? Seemed pretty clear to me. Don't forget we don't get all the coms as well

Edited December 7, 2021 by gregs24

[scotty435]

Tiff Needells thoughts on Verstappens driving.

[electro_boy]

Watched the C4 highlights for the quali and race last night on catch up and just caught up on this thread!   Woweee! where do I start this with one, so many shenanigans in one race.  I'm sure it made entertaining TV but for me the was not a good race.

In my opinion there were many driving infringements from Max and he got away lightly with the penalties he got.  Some dirty and dangerous driving from him and I was disappointed that we didn't get to see some good hard racing as he a very talented driver.  I was actually warming to him at the start of the season as he seemed more mature than previously and was driving beautifully and really giving a good challenge to Lewis and the Merc team.  But I have really gone off him and the Red Bull team.

His torpedo move must getting tiresome with the rest of the drivers and I can see next season people standing their ground a bit more and there being more contact.  This season its mostly him vs Hamilton and it's too much risk for Hamilton to take alone.  But with Russell in a Merc and hopefully the grid is a bit tighter in general we will see more people mixing it up with Max and sharing the burden of standing their ground to him.

Also a very poor display from the F1 race director and the stewards.  There doesn't appear to be any consistency in the rules and they don't appear to be able to run race confidently, fairly and with authority.  They seriously need to up their game running the show for next season.

There has been a LOT of commentary in the press about Max's actions in the last race and the high probability of doing a professional foul and just taking both drivers off.  Hopefully this makes him think hard about what kind of driver he wants to be known as and hopefully he drives a clean race.

[PaulCP]

From the horse’s mouth

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-saudi-arabia-incident-apology/

[exeterjeep]

Doubt if Horner will also say it was Max's fault.   

[C8RKH]

Wow, just wow. So Max was lying through his orange teeth?  This is pretty incredible and I think absolutely calls into questions Max's integrity and honesty.

The big question is "why" has Marko come out with this? I do not believe he would eat humble pie just to clear the air.  Surely an admission that Max DID Brake Check and deliberately cause the crash opens up the potential for a review of the 10 second penalty. To be honest, this deserves more of a punishment.

I'm struggling to see why Marko would admit this without their being an ulterior motive. It's surely dynamite especially as we can see Max was also weaving the car - was that so he knew when he braked hard it would damage Lewis's car?

[910Esprit]

TBH I wonder if the sponsor may have a view on all this as its become pretty blatant.   Lets hope the Bookies are right for the final showdown... 

[Bibs]

I thought I'd read that it had already been shown he'd pulled 2.9g under deceleration?

[TdM]

Yes the stewards already had proof hence they judged him predominantly to blame. You wouldn't get a review here, it's done.

[C8RKH]

44 minutes ago, 910Esprit said:

TBH I wonder if the sponsor may have a view on all this as its become pretty blatant.

Actually, good point. Had not thought about that as Red Bull does have a reputation to uphold and has extensive sporting interests.

[exeterjeep]

See C4 have done a deal with Sky to show the last race live........