Formula One

[exeterjeep]

17 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Let's see how hungry Max really is next year,

Would have thought he will be more aggressive next year, as he is WDC and everyone should let him through.. 

[rudolphwolven]

1 hour ago, exeterjeep said:

Would have thought he will be more aggressive next year, as he is WDC and everyone should let him through.. 

*****

I believe that if his F1 car can keep the present level next year will become Max Verstappen's best year so far as his racing experience is growing year after year.........

Of course he will be agressively racing as Lewis did, however gaining more points.........

There is a fair chance that the LH area is over since his motivation will decrease after so many years of leadership.

There is a time from coming and leaving, even for LH............(who in the last years had the luck of driving a superior Mercedes)

Edited December 14, 2021 by rudolphwolven

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

His first title was with McLaren.

[Bibs]

[Bibs]

And this is an interesting read from Martin Brundle...

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24096/12495471/martin-brundle-on-max-verstappen-title-and-the-most-controversial-f1-finale-as-lewis-hamilton-is-denied

[Neal H]

F1’s credibility as a competitive sport hangs on what they do next. They can’t (and shouldn’t) overturn the outcome, just as the outcome of a football match isn’t changed because of a catastrophically bad referees decision.

If they take on board what happened and make changes to the way the race director operates and come up with a way to make stewards decisions consistent on a race to race basis, as well as making their own racing regulations less open to interpretation then fair enough, but if they want to leave it so that the result or the ending can be deliberately stage managed by the officials then it’s no longer sport - it’s just a Netflix entertainment show.

Sport isn’t always entertaining. Some events are really boring across all sports - that’s the nature of competitive sport and as a sports fan I accept this, and all I want is to know that that the event is fair, unbiased and not being manipulated.

I don’t believe the result was deliberately fixed in Max’s favour, I believe it was fixed so that they could get a last lap shoot out which is what the organisers, TV companies, sponsors etc really wanted to see. It wasn’t a sporting event in the end.

[Techyd]

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

after all, it was only a couple of weeks ago he was saying it doesn't matter how many you win after 1, as you have been the WDC.

True he did say that, I wondered if that was more a dig at LH in a phycological bid to even out the score / undermine Lewis' position.

[Cdm2018]

If tv demands for an shootout type of finish then F1 isn’t the sport for tv ? 
I think if there was a sort of organised finish to the race then it’s going to stick out like a sore thumb that it was engineered and even the teams themselves would see it as start for the end to the sport as only a finale finish was needed to suit tv audience ! 

[C8RKH]

Apparently big changes afoot to the race weekend formula for next year

Friday      2 x Practice sessions, no fixed schedules, everyone can just do what they like when they want as long as it is only in the new 12 minute practice windows - TV chiefs recommended it would make the Ad breaks flow better

Saturday 1 x Practice session - cars may, or may not, be allowed to pass on track

Saturday Qualifying    3 x Rounds   

Round 1  - slowest 5 cars are allowed to swap places with the middle cars to juggle the grid about and provide some drama in Round 1 as the TV chiefs said it was a bit of a bore fest. Aston Martin delighted as it it gives them their best chance of getting two cars through to Qualy Round 2.

Round 2 - the fastest cars from Round 1 need to qualify on the tyres they finished the last GP on, the other 10 cars can use whatever tyres they like. Alonso happy as he can now make it to Round 3 and back up the point he keeps telling everyone, that he, if the Greatest Of All Time and needs to be listened to.

Round 3 - Race Team Managers will be allowed to dictate the positions for the next days race grid - FIA think some sort of televised kick boxing match would entertain us better than just watching 10 cars go round the track trying to be the fastest. Wolf up for it but Gerri said no to Christine partaking as it was too spicey.

The biggest changes are on Sunday - The Race

A new factor will be introduced called the "Mesi" factor.  During random times, the race will be subjected to a safety car event to box the field back up - a set of loaded dice will then be used to determine what happens next and a separate set of dice will determine which teams will be told, and which won't.  This will bring in added excitement through a "double jeopardy" event with the teams who weren't told anything getting penalised when they do the wrong thing. Oh wait, the right thing. No, no, I mean anything. Messy? You got it.

At the end of the season everyone will be happy as Max will be a double world champion. Max will claim the world had stacked up everything against him. He never has any luck (despite the dice being loaded in his favour). And every one was a "bully" as he was a jolly nice chap on the track as he always said sorry when he dive bombed / crashed into / or eliminated someone from the race.

The end of season party will see everyone pat themselves on the back for a jolly good entertaining season of TV fun.  F1 becomes as realistic to motor sport as "The Simpsons" is to normal family life. Hooray....

[TdM]

2 hours ago, Neal H said:

F1’s credibility as a competitive sport hangs on what they do next. They can’t (and shouldn’t) overturn the outcome, just as the outcome of a football match isn’t changed because of a catastrophically bad referees decision.

I think this is tricky. A bad decision by a referee like a missed handball etc. are not usually rewritten rules, it's an interpretation or a miss and those situations are accounted for in the rules.

What has happened on the track was a complete re-write of a rule that was fundamental to the situation of most of the field. I can understand why we shouldn't change it, Max and Red Bull did nothing wrong here. The problem with that argument is that it's based on selection bias. Max has it so taking it off of him is unfair. However, Lewis should have it, so not awarding it to him is by definition MORE unfair but human nature doesn't exactly see it that way.

If you don't overturn it it's actually a worse indictment of the sport as you are stating that the rules do not matter and you will accept fraudulent outcomes (whether deliberate or not) as long as they manage to enact it and get to the flag. It creates a dangerous precedent that could re-surface in the future in other, potentially more serious circumstances. A court could, and should, if it got to that legal point declare racing laps void from the point of interference and rule breach and count back, which counter to some people's thinking, I'm certain they can do as they have every right to change the outcome of a race. If they say, it was wrong and the outcome was affected but we aren't changing it then the court has not done it's job to provide recompense for wrongdoing.

I'm not saying I want them to overturn it, but by 'human emotions free' legal, moral and sporting correctness, it should absolutely be overturned.

[C8RKH]

As you say Stephen it should be, but it won't. But to use your footballing analogy, when referees get it that wrong, they don't get to referee the big games any more!

I think part of F1's charm has been the rules and the room for movement around them. However, I think what we will see is a tightening of the rules next year as a result of this. I think teams and sponsors will demand it and the FIA will need to listen.  That being the case, I can see Max being a lot more "unlucky" next year IF he does not change his driving style.

[PascalM]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

The biggest changes are on Sunday - The Race

A new factor will be introduced called the "Mesi" factor. 

You forgot the most important factor: Lewis will be allowed, at own discretion to fight the would-be double champion Max, to cut corners while other competitors need to stay put between track limits. 😄

Edited December 14, 2021 by PascalM

[C8RKH]

7 minutes ago, PascalM said:

You forgot the most important factor: Lewis will be allowed, at own discretion to fight the would-be double champion Max, to cut corners while other competitors need to stay put between track limits. 😄

Yawn. Max has cut more corners than most. 

[PaulCP]

19 minutes ago, PascalM said:

You forgot the most important factor: Lewis will be allowed, at own discretion to fight the would-be double champion Max, to cut corners while other competitors need to stay put between track limits. 😄

Lol, and Max will still be allowed to continue to push other cars off the track without being penalised 😛

 

[jimichanga]

Merc should be celebrating a record 8th consecutive constructors title. Failing to do so discredits that achievement, any other team would still be celebrating now. They got Lewis’s tyre strategy wrong, they let him down so blaming the race director, potentially ending his career, is a whole other travesty the sport doesn’t need.

Rules need to be clarified and applied more consistently. The FIA need to let the drivers race and team bosses need to let the race director direct and accept his judgement call. We need to accept that not every possible scenario can be covered in the regulations and that it is a very difficult job to get right under extreme pressure. Max needs to dial down the aggression next year or accept the penalties. Lewis needs to forget conspiracy theories, if you have 7 titles it’s fair to say the governing bodies haven’t done a very good job of stopping you winning.

Take another look at the last lap, pause the Michael Masi rage for a moment and just look. One of the most extraordinary single laps in F1 history. The pass by Max, going early to catch Lewis and everyone else by surprise, making it stick - cleanly - to pull that off on the most important lap of your life, to not choke or overcook it or bin it then to defend a clearly faster car down two straights (yes he shouldn’t have done the weaving) but the sheer nerve, skill and will to pull it off is one of the most remarkable things you will see in motorsport. Max had one chance against the best driver and car in F1 and he took it. Lewis had a chance to put the disappointment of the safety car behind him and finish it on the track. Merc let him down on tyres but he still had a chance. I think he could have driven more defensively given what was at stake but was feeling (understandably) hard done by. They have both driven beyond brilliantly this year also both driven beyond what is fair, sporting and acceptable at times. That’s how far they have pushed each other. Seasons like 21 are very rare. The ending was not what either of them deserved but take another look at what we did get.

 

[C8RKH]

24 minutes ago, PascalM said:

You forgot the most important factor: Lewis will be allowed, at own discretion to fight the would-be double champion Max, to cut corners while other competitors need to stay put between track limits. 😄

French Grand Prix 2021

Having been caught out by a combination of cold tyres and a gust of wind, the rear end of his Red Bull got away from him and he drifted wide.

The Dutchman was fortunate to only lose a single position to Lewis Hamilton as he cut back across the inside of Turn 2 and rejoined in front of Valtteri Bottas.

However, in getting back on the track that way, Verstappen appeared to have breached track limits protocols which demanded that any driver that missed the apex of Turn 2 had to take a diversion via some blocks up the escape road.

It was something that Lando Norris did on lap two after he ran wide as he battled McLaren teammate Daniel Ricciardo.

In event notes sent to teams by F1 race director Michael Masi, he was clear about the procedures that drivers needed to follow.

"Any driver who fails to negotiate Turn 2 by using the track, and who passes completely to the right of the first fluorescent yellow bollard on the apex of the corner, must keep completely to the right of the fluorescent yellow bollard and re-join the track by driving through the two arrays of blocks in the run off by passing to the right of the first and to the left of the second," he said.

Verstappen, of course, didn't do that and he came back on to the circuit after the two yellow bollards instead.

[hedgerley]

Don't disagree with your final lap analysis @jimichanga but it gives no credit whatsoever for the racing on laps 1-50. As I said in my earlier post, Lewis put in a dominating performance up to that point, banging in lap record after lap record, managing his tyres, negotiating back markers and generally making all the other drivers look pretty second rate, even MV who ended up 12 seconds and 5 lapped cars behind him with 8 laps to go. Even on his newer softs that gap would have been extremely difficult to overcome.

Mercedes didn't get his tyre strategy wrong. They chose to keep him out to maintain track position which he would have lost if they had brought him in - as with all these decisions it was a calculated gamble. They were not to know that Latiffi would stuff it in to the wall later in the race. Bono explained this when Lewis queried the decision, which he accepted and got on with the job of extending his lead.

Without that safety car Lewis would now be World Champion. If the decisions about lapped cars and the use of the safety car had been consistent with previous decisions (by Massi himself, see his statement during the 2020 Eifel GP at the Nurburgring -  "There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past”) then Lewis would be World Champion.

No, what we had was a bizarre reinterpretation of the regulations and application of a rule that I don't think has ever been used before, to give Max the opportunity to have a go in that final lap. And yes it was awesome and he deserved to win - that lap.

I don't subscribe to any particular conspiracy theory, but I'm afraid Max's world champion status will be forever tarnished. And yes, I standby what I said about Massi, he does have questions to answer that I don't think his rejection of the Mercedes appeal adressed at all.

[PascalM]

OK

Sure, both Max and Lewis had their fair share of overtaking rules infringement. But let us be honest, isn’t all that overtaking not making F1 much more fun to watch? That’s what the public wants to see. Just bring back plain motor racing

Because, in the end, isn’t overtaking on a narrow track always pushing the ‘other’ competitor? If that’s an issue, then rewrite the big book of rules to 1 sentence: no overtaking.

[LotusFella]

15 hours ago, TdM said:

I think this is tricky. A bad decision by a referee like a missed handball etc. are not usually rewritten rules, it's an interpretation or a miss and those situations are accounted for in the rules.

What has happened on the track was a complete re-write of a rule that was fundamental to the situation of most of the field. I can understand why we shouldn't change it, Max and Red Bull did nothing wrong here. The problem with that argument is that it's based on selection bias. Max has it so taking it off of him is unfair. However, Lewis should have it, so not awarding it to him is by definition MORE unfair but human nature doesn't exactly see it that way.

If you don't overturn it it's actually a worse indictment of the sport as you are stating that the rules do not matter and you will accept fraudulent outcomes (whether deliberate or not) as long as they manage to enact it and get to the flag. It creates a dangerous precedent that could re-surface in the future in other, potentially more serious circumstances. A court could, and should, if it got to that legal point declare racing laps void from the point of interference and rule breach and count back, which counter to some people's thinking, I'm certain they can do as they have every right to change the outcome of a race. If they say, it was wrong and the outcome was affected but we aren't changing it then the court has not done it's job to provide recompense for wrongdoing.

I'm not saying I want them to overturn it, but by 'human emotions free' legal, moral and sporting correctness, it should absolutely be overturned.

Maybe they should both be made world champions.  Everyone knows it was his, but for Masi 

[PaulCP]

10 hours ago, hedgerley said:

MV who ended up 12 seconds and 5 lapped cars behind him with 8 laps to go. Even on his newer softs that gap would have been extremely difficult to overcome.

This is exactly why the situation rankles with people, including many of the F1 drivers afterwards.

Having established an unassailable leading position before the safety car was required, the race was finally engineered into a 1 lap shoot out which quite honestly was an unbelievable decision, particularly since rules were broken to engineer a finale.

Note, I doubt very much that it was in Masi’s mind to fix the race and hence the championship, but he is extremely guilty of manipulating the rule book to engineer a spectacle finale without any consideration for the previous 50 laps.
He certainly has a lot of explaining to do for his actions this season when he finally comes out of hiding!

[Chillidoggy]

16 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Apparently big changes afoot to the race weekend formula for next year

Friday      2 x Practice sessions, no fixed schedules, everyone can just do what they like when they want as long as it is only in the new 12 minute practice windows - TV chiefs recommended it would make the Ad breaks flow better

Saturday 1 x Practice session - cars may, or may not, be allowed to pass on track

Saturday Qualifying    3 x Rounds   

Round 1  - slowest 5 cars are allowed to swap places with the middle cars to juggle the grid about and provide some drama in Round 1 as the TV chiefs said it was a bit of a bore fest. Aston Martin delighted as it it gives them their best chance of getting two cars through to Qualy Round 2.

Round 2 - the fastest cars from Round 1 need to qualify on the tyres they finished the last GP on, the other 10 cars can use whatever tyres they like. Alonso happy as he can now make it to Round 3 and back up the point he keeps telling everyone, that he, if the Greatest Of All Time and needs to be listened to.

Round 3 - Race Team Managers will be allowed to dictate the positions for the next days race grid - FIA think some sort of televised kick boxing match would entertain us better than just watching 10 cars go round the track trying to be the fastest. Wolf up for it but Gerri said no to Christine partaking as it was too spicey.

The biggest changes are on Sunday - The Race

A new factor will be introduced called the "Mesi" factor.  During random times, the race will be subjected to a safety car event to box the field back up - a set of loaded dice will then be used to determine what happens next and a separate set of dice will determine which teams will be told, and which won't.  This will bring in added excitement through a "double jeopardy" event with the teams who weren't told anything getting penalised when they do the wrong thing. Oh wait, the right thing. No, no, I mean anything. Messy? You got it.

At the end of the season everyone will be happy as Max will be a double world champion. Max will claim the world had stacked up everything against him. He never has any luck (despite the dice being loaded in his favour). And every one was a "bully" as he was a jolly nice chap on the track as he always said sorry when he dive bombed / crashed into / or eliminated someone from the race.

The end of season party will see everyone pat themselves on the back for a jolly good entertaining season of TV fun.  F1 becomes as realistic to motor sport as "The Simpsons" is to normal family life. Hooray....

 

Hang on a minute, didn't you say you wouldn't be watching F1 next year?

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, PascalM said:

Sure, both Max and Lewis had their fair share of overtaking rules infringement. But let us be honest, isn’t all that overtaking not making F1 much more fun to watch? That’s what the public wants to see. Just bring back plain motor racing

Yes over taking is good and we want to see the skilful overtakes not the drag race overtakes. However, with Max, he seems to think that diving into the corner, missing the apex, having no hope of making it round the corner, but using the car on the outside as a type of "bumper" is a legitimate move.  That's not skilful overtaking my my mind.  Dive bombing into a corner and forcing your competitor to yield and go off track, is not skilful overtaking in my mind.

So, how about what we see is:

1. If you force a competitor off track (i.e. you do not leave 1 car width of room) to gain a position, then you need to give it back

2. If you force a competitor off track, and it is clear you had not left 1 car width of room, AND your competitor gains an advantage, then they can keep that advantage

3. If you "bump" someone sideways over track limits, then you get an automatic 5 second penalty. If you do it twice in 1 race, you get a drive through, any subsequent occurrences in that race get you a drive through for each one.

F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport. The best drivers, in the best cars.  It's not touring cars or banger racing, so we want to see the most skilful drivers, using their machines AND brains delivering the best performance they can, and winning clean.  

Now, before anyone whinges about "let them race", just think back over the past say 10 years, to all the fantastic overtakes you marvelled at - Ricciardo and his skilful late breaking that did not rely on the other car to keep him on track etc. The overtakes around the outside etc.  Racing hard, AND clean, it can be done. The best of the best in the best cars. If they cannot race clean AND put on a spectacle, then who can?

If I want to see crashes, then I'll spectate at Touring cars and even better, the Ginetta Cup races!

I think Max is a fantastic driver. But he's not in Karting any more and he now needs to show he can race hard, and clean, and ON THE TRACK to do that WDC crown proud. We'll see. Let's be honest, we all marvelled at Schumacher, but his legacy has been, and is, forever tainted by accusations of cheating and poor racing decisions on track. If that's how Max wants to be remembered, then fine I guess.

3 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

 

Hang on a minute, didn't you say you wouldn't be watching F1 next year?

And where in that post does it say that I WILL be watching it?

6 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Note, I doubt very much that it was in Masi’s mind to fix the race and hence the championship, but he is extremely guilty of manipulating the rule book to engineer a spectacle finale without any consideration for the previous 50 laps.
He certainly has a lot of explaining to do for his actions this season when he finally comes out of hiding!

Have seen a couple of posts from Aussie racing drivers who refer to Masi in a not very positive way from his Supercar days. It seems he was extremely arrogant with a huge ego and used to make "fumbles" often.  I think when you look at pictures of him, and hear his attitude on race radio, that arrogance and ego comes across. With the Charlie sadly leaving us I think the FIA made a decision on Masi in haste that has bitten them.

[Chillidoggy]

2 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Yes over taking is good and we want to see the skilful overtakes not the drag race overtakes. However, with Max, he seems to think that diving into the corner, missing the apex, having no hope of making it round the corner, but using the car on the outside as a type of "bumper" is a legitimate move.  That's not skilful overtaking my my mind.  Dive bombing into a corner and forcing your competitor to yield and go off track, is not skilful overtaking in my mind.

So, how about what we see is:

1. If you force a competitor off track (i.e. you do not leave 1 car width of room) to gain a position, then you need to give it back

2. If you force a competitor off track, and it is clear you had not left 1 car width of room, AND your competitor gains an advantage, then they can keep that advantage

3. If you "bump" someone sideways over track limits, then you get an automatic 5 second penalty. If you do it twice in 1 race, you get a drive through, any subsequent occurrences in that race get you a drive through for each one.

F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport. The best drivers, in the best cars.  It's not touring cars or banger racing, so we want to see the most skilful drivers, using their machines AND brains delivering the best performance they can, and winning clean.  

Now, before anyone whinges about "let them race", just think back over the past say 10 years, to all the fantastic overtakes you marvelled at - Ricciardo and his skilful late breaking that did not rely on the other car to keep him on track etc. The overtakes around the outside etc.  Racing hard, AND clean, it can be done. The best of the best in the best cars. If they cannot race clean AND put on a spectacle, then who can?

If I want to see crashes, then I'll spectate at Touring cars and even better, the Ginetta Cup races!

I think Max is a fantastic driver. But he's not in Karting any more and he now needs to show he can race hard, and clean, and ON THE TRACK to do that WDC crown proud. We'll see. Let's be honest, we all marvelled at Schumacher, but his legacy has been, and is, forever tainted by accusations of cheating and poor racing decisions on track. If that's how Max wants to be remembered, then fine I guess.

And where in that post does it say that I WILL be watching it?

 

Pretty sure you said it in on of your earlier posts, that's all.

[C8RKH]

1 minute ago, Chillidoggy said:

 

Pretty sure you said it in on of your earlier posts, that's all.

That one you just quoted was after, not before. If you want to be pedantic or picky then put some effort into it. Don't be half arsed like Masi 

 

[Chillidoggy]

1 minute ago, C8RKH said:

That one you just quoted was after, not before. If you want to be pedantic or picky then put some effort into it. Don't be half arsed like Masi 

 

 

Calm down, or you'll end up having a coronary. I was surprised you'd written all that lot when you said you weren't going to watch it next year.