Type 132 - Lotus Eletre

[exeterjeep]

6 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

Of course the actual price of the Eletre is still just speculation.

Wonder what they are waiting for - before they tell us.

Bibs thinks we should be surprised....- low or high????

[Bibs]

 

[NedaSay]

Geely is trying to establish the brand by benchmarking it against the upper echelon.The Target they have is clear, it is Porsche market.  Porsche is in its own little but very profitable space somewhere between the likes of Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus, Volvo... and the Bentley, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin and Co. Lotus is de facto targeting the same space. Thus the Eletre sizing, power, and spec level ; it is the same size as the Urus, not a coincidence, it is as powerful as a Tesla X, not coincidence either. it is unveiled with only four seats and the most luxurious cabin with golden toggles to boot... This is not a coincidence. They are not there yet, that is a fact but that is what they are aiming for!

Again the most likely competitor for the Eletre as an EV vehicle is the Tesla Model X, and on spec it has to be the Plaid version which retails at $120k or BMW iX M60 that retails at entry level at $106k. Lotus is committing to an entry price around 100k, yet the did not specify the currency, but since it is not made in the UK, it doesn't have to be GBP, if it is USD then 100k would be undercutting both vehicles on value. Lotus needs to work on perceived quality, up the brand cachet and offer a specific USP, there they chose tech.

if compared with a Cayenne (ice vehicle) then you have to match it on power and specs which means the Turbo GT model that is $180k, even with a conversion rate in favor of GBP that is not 62k (I noticed you went for the entry model)  Lotus branded the vehicl as an hyper SUV, they meant it.

If you don't see the I-Pace competing with the Macan, some people at Jaguar will be very hurting right now, it is the one vehicle they benchmarked like crazy for both the I-Pace and the E-Pace.

[eUKenGB]

Well at the launch, Jaguar told me it was Macan sized on the outside, but Cayenne sized on the inside. They currently have the F-Pace (essentially the same size as I-Pace) to compete against the Cayenne and smaller E-Pace against the Macan. Which rather puts the I-Pace against the forthcoming electric Cayenne.

At the end of the day, unless they're exactly the same size, it's impossible to state absolutely that any 2 cars are equivalent. What I can tell you is that I am an SUV owner, interested in a new electric SUV and the I-Pace and Eletra are absolutely in direct competition for my attention - at the same money.

Yes the 100k could be different currency, but the review I was watching showed it as £s. I'm not saying they are correct, I'm just pointing out why I think £100k would make it over-priced. However if I'm correctly interpreting the hints on here from those 'in the know', it seems like Lotus have not made a huge faux pas. I hope they don't and time will tell.

I don't dispute they want to target Bentley and/or Lamborghini. That would be something to aim at, but you cannot achieve parity immediately just by offering a similarly expensive car. People will for sure pay more for those brands (and probably Porsche) than a Lotus. Currently that's just the way it is. Can Lotus raise their status to those levels? Possibly, but not with their first product on that path. They'll have to build up to it. Those brands have had plenty of practice building up to and maintaining their current level of status.

BTW, there was no hidden agenda in the cars I picked to compare. It was just a few in which I am interested and/or had easy access to the data. I tried to pick the basic spec (hence pricing column headed 'From'), but sometimes hard to get equivalent specs and as I explained, the Eletra specs are probably mixed up between different models. Or will the 600hp version do 0-60 in 2.9 secs? In which case, how will the 1000hp version perform and why not quote that 0-60 time? That has not been made clear. So my list was quick and dirty, for my own benefit to get a handle on how some cars roughly compared and then I thought others may be interested. If not, no worries, I did it for my own benefit. 😀

Edited March 30, 2022 by eUKenGB

[TBD]

So, after the presentation, do I want an Eletre? NO! Because its an SUV and I hate them. 🤮But, If I did want an SUV I think the Eletre is currently probably the best of the bunch.

However, what I am taking back with me from the presentation is that Lotus is entering a completely new world of quality, functionality and livability. The Eletre and my current Exige are worlds  apart in so many ways (and I don't mean market segment).

Gives me a lot of hope for the future sports cars to come.

[Il fenomino]

It's the same for me. The Eletre is not a car for me. But the type 133 could be. So I'm very intrigued how the car will look like and what it will be capable of. Although, I more and more become a fan of battery swapping. CATL announced all the cars with their battery, will be able to swap them, when CATL builds battery swap stations. Do we know already which batteries the lifestyle cars, like Eletre, type 133 will have?

[eUKenGB]

I think battery swapping is a stop-gap solution. Once range is high enough and charge time is low enough (all on the horizon), the desire to swap batteries will diminish or even go away.

I have not seen any information about the Eletre's battery tech. All I've seen is that it uses an 800v system and a claim that it is the first electric SUV to do so, which is untrue and should piss of Kia/Hyundai who already sell SUVs using exactly that technology, while the Eletre is a whole year off. Unless they claim the Eletre is the first ever 'Hyper SUV', in which case they can claim everything is a first, but it's all just semantic BS.

I'm looking forward to more technical info about the Eletre. Like battery and motor technology etc. Pleased to see it has (or can have) a tow bar as that is of particular interest to me, but no info on its towing capacity etc. Hopefully we won't have to wait a full year before they let us know this sort of stuff about the car.

[Il fenomino]

4 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

Once range is high enough and charge time is low enough (all on the horizon), the desire to swap batteries will diminish or even go away.

Battery swapping is not about recharge time. It's about not caring about battery degredation. It's about getting the newest batterie-tech, even if you have an old car. Also about changing between small batteries for your daily commutes and big ones for roadtrips.

[scotty435]

27 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

I think battery swapping is a stop-gap solution. Once range is high enough and charge time is low enough (all on the horizon), the desire to swap batteries will diminish or even go away.

I have not seen any information about the Eletre's battery tech. All I've seen is that it uses an 800v system and a claim that it is the first electric SUV to do so, which is untrue and should piss of Kia/Hyundai who already sell SUVs using exactly that technology, while the Eletre is a whole year off. Unless they claim the Eletre is the first ever 'Hyper SUV', in which case they can claim everything is a first, but it's all just semantic BS.

I'm looking forward to more technical info about the Eletre. Like battery and motor technology etc. Pleased to see it has (or can have) a tow bar as that is of particular interest to me, but no info on its towing capacity etc. Hopefully we won't have to wait a full year before they let us know this sort of stuff about the car.

It as been mentioned in numerous videos that a retractable tow bar will be a option, and they have even shown the button in the boot that operates the tow bar in at least one video i have seen.

[jonwat]

Very complementary review in Auto Express 

[ramjet]

100,000GBP is a tad over $175,000 in AUD.

I am not going to say 'won't', but I just can't see myself paying at least that much for a car and $175,000 is being conservative.

[Nelly]

I like it.  These are not my sort of thing, but if I had a fave it would be the Urus and the fact you can get something so similar for so much less money can't be a bad thing.  Looks fab from the front in yellow.

Seen a lot of comments about Lotus betraying their roots, but I would hate to see the company become like Little Chef or Woolworths (sorry very UK references) and be consigned to history because they didn't change with the times.  Wonder how many of those comments come from people who have never owned a Lotus..

It may be 2 tons, but if its lighter than the competition (and it seems to be ) then surely that's the point?

If it helps Lotus thrive, then its all good.  

[eUKenGB]

2 hours ago, Il fenomino said:

Battery swapping is not about recharge time. It's about not caring about battery degredation. It's about getting the newest batterie-tech, even if you have an old car. Also about changing between small batteries for your daily commutes and big ones for roadtrips.

I agree that those are considerations, for the more technically and critically minded. But I can pretty much guarantee that most potential EV users interest in the concept of battery swapping is all about range and re-charge times.

Degradation will also become less of an issue with newer technology. There are already designs for battery types that basically do not degrade (check out QuantumScape), so swapping becomes an irrelevance. Clearly not there yet and so for the immediate future swapping is a viable solution, but as I said, it's a stop-gap until the better battery tech becomes available.

[eUKenGB]

1 hour ago, scotty435 said:

It as been mentioned in numerous videos that a retractable tow bar will be a option, and they have even shown the button in the boot that operates the tow bar in at least one video i have seen.

"They" meaning? I don't see any mention of it on Lotus' website. Maybe I missed it, but in any case, yes I have seen it mentioned elsewhere. But my point is that no actual specs for that seem to have been yet released. Actual towing capacity is critical. I know what I want to tow and my X5 does that. A Model X can also easily handle it (also the CyberTruck of course), but the Jaguar I-Pace cannot and the Kia EV6 is marginal. Towing has a bigger impact on an EV, so it's more than simply "it has a tow-bar". The question remains, what can it do with that tow-bar? 

Not criticising Lotus here, just saying I would like to know that level of info about the Eletre and I'm looking forward to it being released - or me finding it on the website. 😀

[eUKenGB]

19 minutes ago, Nelly said:

…It may be 2 tons, but if its lighter than the competition (and it seems to be ) then surely that's the point?

Found some interesting additional info in Top Gear review.

"Lotus’s claim the Eletre weighs around two tonnes dead"

That puts the weight at 2,032kg which is light for the class and puts it under the Cayenne AND even the Macan. Those are the ICE versions and I'll hazard a guess that their EV versions will be heavier. So +1 to Lotus on that.

TG also point out that the 600hp 'basic' version has 2 motors and can achieve the 0-60 in 2.9 secs figure that is claimed and is impressive. Then there'll be a tri motor version (2 on the back axle, as per Tesla Plaid) which at 300hp each makes it 900hp, which fits in with what we've heard. However that would be even quicker of course, although I doubt it would break the 2 sec. barrier. My guess is the basic one will be available first and the "Ultra SUV" version will arrive slightly later.

There's nothing factual I have seen or heard about the Eletre that I don't like. My one niggling concern is price and I cannot help but wonder when that will be revealed.

[scotty435]

For me the most impressive thing  is the design and quality of the interior with groundbreaking tec, quality materials that in my opinion only RR Cullinan and the Bentayga can beat, design wise it even knocks these two into the park. Exterior you are going to love or hate it as with most SUVs for me its the former. When a manufacturer can bring a ground breaking car on there first attempt into this segment it must surely worry its rivals big time. Lotus should be very proud of themselves. For me i can not wait for the next three models its a very exciting time to be a Lotus enthusiast.

[NedaSay]

I couldn't agree more. for me it is also another aspect, that because most of us don't have access to Geely products except for Volvo and Polestar,  so  it is not really obvious ;  that is the amount of parts coming from the Geely group parts bin. It is beyond what one can imagine. Yes, the body is bespoke, it's the first aluminum body for Geely Group, but it is the first of many to come as Polestar is adopting the alloy for its upcoming vehicles.  The skate architecture comes from Geely Group so does the loom, the seats, the infotainment screen,  the toggles... they all are a bespoke treatment of existing parts. Even the powertrain is a bespoke treatment of something that Lotus had access to. All of that is bringing the costs downs and the economies of scale are going to be massive.

I'm not surprised Lotus did not specify a currency for the price at the unveil. Believe me or not but they can actually make it for USD 100K or EUR 100K. The Zeekr 001, which Eletre "shares"  of lot its bits with(the SEA architecture aka Lotus Premium Electric Architecture), retails for the equivalent of USD 55k IN China. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/zeekr/001/first-drives/zeekr-001-2022-review  

So thanks to the use of the parts bin getting a price even just below 100k is not out of the realm of possibilities.

Yes, at 100k you won't get the carbon bits and probably not LIDAR, and it will probably the 3 seats bench at the back without the photochromic sunroof and only a 15 speaker system with the base leather/ microfiber electric seats. And yes we in North America will get regular mirrors and not cameras because NHTSA will not have them... That would still get the buyers a Premium ESUV with a range of over 500km and enough power to do pretty stupid things at the red lights. I'm not sure getting below 2sec 0 to 60 is that much of a good thing when moving this much mass... Speaking about mass the way Zeekr 001, which body and subframes are all steel weighs 2350kg... I guess we'll see how much the aluminum body and subframe can save, along with all the weight saving measures Lotus applies to it. The number may be pretty close to 2000kg dead in top trim, which would be not shabby for a 5m luxobarge with huge wheels.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by NedaSay

[Chris_H]

To compare to the other premium sports electric cars (which I will be doing) the Taycan GTS Sports Turismo is 2295KG, a shade under 5m and 598PS on boost but £104k with no options.

I think my deposit will stay with Lotus unless some silly build times appear!

[KusaKusa]

8 hours ago, eUKenGB said:

Found some interesting additional info in Top Gear review.

"Lotus’s claim the Eletre weighs around two tonnes dead"

That puts the weight at 2,032kg which is light for the class and puts it under the Cayenne AND even the Macan. Those are the ICE versions and I'll hazard a guess that their EV versions will be heavier. So +1 to Lotus on that.

TG also point out that the 600hp 'basic' version has 2 motors and can achieve the 0-60 in 2.9 secs figure that is claimed and is impressive. Then there'll be a tri motor version (2 on the back axle, as per Tesla Plaid) which at 300hp each makes it 900hp, which fits in with what we've heard. However that would be even quicker of course, although I doubt it would break the 2 sec. barrier. My guess is the basic one will be available first and the "Ultra SUV" version will arrive slightly later.

There's nothing factual I have seen or heard about the Eletre that I don't like. My one niggling concern is price and I cannot help but wonder when that will be revealed.

The Tesla Model X weighs around 5200 lbs (~2360 kg) for the same size as the Eletre, and for the same weight as the 2 ton target you get the Tesla Model Y in size (187 inches long vs >200in of the Eletre).  Tesla also uses a full aluminum platform, so Lotus will have to be really clever more than just good materials to meet that weight claim.  Hopefully the Tesla falcon doors add a lot of weight.  I also wouldn't be surprised if there's huge variation in the weight from Eletre base trim to fully loaded.  Air suspension, rear wheel steering, active anti-roll bars, 48V battery, triple electric motors, electric adjusting rear seats, electric adjusting trunk floor, LIDAR (which typically has huge devices required like Waymo vans?), 23 speakers, a ton of glass that will likely be double paned for this class, and huge wheels can add significant weight.  

9 hours ago, Nelly said:

Seen a lot of comments about Lotus betraying their roots, but I would hate to see the company become like Little Chef or Woolworths (sorry very UK references) and be consigned to history because they didn't change with the times.  Wonder how many of those comments come from people who have never owned a Lotus..

I think a good demonstration of the commitment to staying "Lotus" is that the team in Norfolk work separately from Lotus Technology developing lifestyle products.  It seems like it'd be much more efficient to integrate Lotus Norfolk into Lotus Tech and have them all work on both lifestyle vehicles and sports cars instead of duplicating development resources and locations.  But keeping them distinct shows a commitment from Geely to respect Lotus' priorities, culture, and autonomy.  

 

One random thing I wish Eletre had was a taller windshield like the Model X or Lucid Air.  It really makes a difference to the ambiance of the cabin.  

Edited March 31, 2022 by KusaKusa

[Bibs]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/new-cars/opinion-lotus-ahead-curve-eletre

[NedaSay]

7 hours ago, KusaKusa said:

The Tesla Model X weighs around 5200 lbs (~2360 kg) for the same size as the Eletre, and for the same weight as the 2 ton target you get the Tesla Model Y in size (187 inches long vs >200in of the Eletre).  Tesla also uses a full aluminum platform, so Lotus will have to be really clever more than just good materials to meet that weight claim.  Hopefully the Tesla falcon doors add a lot of weight.  I also wouldn't be surprised if there's huge variation in the weight from Eletre base trim to fully loaded.  Air suspension, rear wheel steering, active anti-roll bars, 48V battery, triple electric motors, electric adjusting rear seats, electric adjusting trunk floor, LIDAR (which typically has huge devices required like Waymo vans?), 23 speakers, a ton of glass that will likely be double paned for this class, and huge wheels can add significant weight. 

The model X plaid weighs 2556kg. The doors do in fact weigh a lot and also forced the body/chassis to be reinforced fore and aft... Musk said it himself the gullwing doors were a mistake he would not do again. the third engine also adds weight. Tesla controled weight by making option list very limited. The X is already 10 years - old unveiled in 2012 and released in 2015! Tesla was still a very bratty company with a huge chip on their shoulder. It is crazy to think that nobody has really been able to catch up until... now. 

Lotus Technology inherited years of Lotus engineering lightweighting research, has more resources than Tesla had to develop model X at the time, and enjoys 10 years of technology improvements in aluminum stamping - some holes and negative surfaces in the Eletra body would have been deemed impossible to bring to mass market 10 years ago. They have done their homework so much so that they can afford to have robotised screen and Lidar. 

[DarrylV8]

Https://www.goodwood.com/grr/road/news/2022/3/lotus-Eletre-is-an-all-electric-hyper-suv/ 

[Matt W]

It does genuinely look innovative, of not my thing. The bigger thing I'd be wary of if I was in the market for an SUV is the truely abysmal 'Lotus customer experience', if I was spending that sort of money I'd want a more comprehensive dealer network, with credible, competent servicing and to be acknowledged as a premium customer. Lotus just don't get that side of things, though it was encouraging to see new faces and less influence by the old lags, who after 20+ years of failing to turn Lotus around, need to go. 

[DarrylV8]

Wow,

A premium customer what sort of relationship have you with your local dealership/retailer?

The old lags who designed and produced the Elise, Exige, Evora with next to zero budget.

the current senior management team who have had nearly four years to update previous management teams designs; Evija, Emira and Eletre with £1.5billion behind them. The current boss in the hot seat I assume is one of your “old lags” who has returned, the “old lags” are still doing their jobs with a senior management team with big budgets able to do what “the old lags” could only dream of 

I’m surprised that “the old lags” even bothered to produce the cars with that kind of sentiment and it’s probably a good job I’m not being honest about what I call you as it would possibly be my last post on here

[TomE]

Never mind being acknowledged as a ”premium” customer - even just being treated as a customer.  One spending £80k and for many the largest single purchase apart from a house.

A large cluster of Emira deposit holders have had only 2 emails from Lotus and no dealer contact in 9 months and broken promises about when next info and contact will happen. Lots of other examples of poor customer experience.

The new direct sales channel needs significant improvement if they want to sell 50,000 per year of a £100k+ premium SUV.