Pas pump pulley 1993.5 S4

[stevefh]

Hi all, how do you stop the pulley from turning when you attempt to undo the 3 bolts holding it on and what should the torque be? The access is very restricted, the belt is still on and tensioned and the starter motor is off but I am hoping it is possible not to do it by jamming the flywheel through that hole. I am attempting this because I cannot get at the Allan key head pivot bolt because the pulley is in the way.

 I am taking the engine out and decided to remove the pump from its bracket not bracket from engine.Thanks for any help.

[Chillidoggy]

Have you tried preventing the pump flange from turning, yet?

[jonwat]

14 hours ago, stevefh said:

 I am hoping it is possible not to do it by jamming the flywheel through that hole. I am attempting this because I cannot get at the Allan key head pivot bolt because the pulley is in the way.

If the transmission is still in placing it a low gear will stop the engine turning over. 

[ramjet]

Reverse is best as it is lower than first. 

[stevefh]

Thanks for replies so far. I can’t remember if the car is in any gear and I have removed the gear change cables. Ian, how did you stop the flange from turning? I was thinking of jamming a short length of rubber hose  between the pump belt and it’s pulley.The charge cooler pump has been removed but is there any other reason to worry about the engine tending to turn backwards as I try to undo the three pulley bolts?

[Chillidoggy]

For maximum resistance to the engine turning, then high gears are what's required, not first or reverse.

[EXCEL V8]

Doesn't the pump shaft have a hexagonal cavity at the end?  Can you not get a hex key of some sort into it? Not worked on an Esprit so don't know how much space there is (but I know it's not much!).

Pete

[jonwat]

2 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

For maximum resistance to the engine turning, then high gears are what's required, not first or reverse.

I disagree, the lower the gear the more the engine has to turn to turn the wheels therefore one turn of the wheel will spin the engine many times. 

 

[Chillidoggy]

57 minutes ago, jonwat said:

I disagree, the lower the gear the more the engine has to turn to turn the wheels therefore one turn of the wheel will spin the engine many times. 

 

 

Oh, dearie me.

 

[stevefh]

Hi Ian, never mind which gear ,I think the belt slides on the pulleys anyway. How did you prevent the pulley/flange from moving.Please answer as I will be under the esprit tomorrow .

 Hi Peter, I will have a look for the cavity but there is very little room.

[Sparky]

OK, pulley loosening 101.  Forget about stopping the engine turning.  Find 2 spanners for the bolts.  Put them on A and B and squeeze them together. thereby counteracting any pulley rotation.  One will undo; call this bolt A.  Now place the spanners appropriately on B and C and squeeze.  A second one will undo; call this bolt B.  Now, you have only bolt C tight.  Loosen C using the same methodology between B & C.  This will retighten B, but not as much as before.  Alternate between B and C, tightening/untightening, until they are both loose enough to turn whilst just holding the pulley by hand.  I doin't think I've ever had to do more than 3 or 4 iterations of this.

[stevefh]

Thanks Gary, I definitely would not of thought of that. I will give it a go.

[Escape]

As above, that usually works. If bolt C does turn out to be stubborn, you can also use a spanner on A and wedge it on the head of B. 

Often the belt will give enough resistance to undo all the bolts if you can give the spanner a little tap with a hammer to shock them lose. Or you can clamp the belt to prevent slippage.

Also, if you really need to keep the engine from turning (for example to undo the crank bolt) a high gear will be more effective than a low one. 😉 

[Chillidoggy]

15 hours ago, jonwat said:

I disagree, the lower the gear the more the engine has to turn to turn the wheels therefore one turn of the wheel will spin the engine many times. 

 

 

Which is precisely what is NOT required. The object here is to prevent the engine turning enough whilst heaving on a spanner and removing the PAS pulley (connected to said engine via its drive belt). Put it in low gear, and you are far less likely be able to stop the engine turning whilst heaving on the aforementioned spanner. Putting the transmission in higher gears increases the torque required to turn the engine. I hope this explains it.🙂

[stevefh]

Hi Ian, you have still not said how and with what you can jam the pump flange. I would like to try this method first before the two spanner method as you well know you can see next to nothing.Thanks

[jonwat]

1 hour ago, Chillidoggy said:

The object here is to prevent the engine turning enough whilst heaving on a spanner and removing the PAS pulley 

So, putting the car in any gear with the handbrake on will stop the engine turning 

17 minutes ago, stevefh said:

Hi Ian, you have still not said how and with what you can jam the pump flange.

Not sure about access but a square bar between two of the bolts while you undo the third would work. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by jonwat

[Chillidoggy]

6 minutes ago, jonwat said:

Next time you have a chance put the car in first, handbrake off, jack one of the rear wheels off the ground & try turning it, then select fourth & retry turning the wheel. You'll find it's almost impossible to turn the wheel with first selected while it will turn quite easily in fourth. That's why the highway code states:

With the engine switched off, leaving it in reverse gear should also stop the car.

Reverse being the lowest of all the gears 

Not sure about access but a square bar between two of the bolts while you undo the third would work. 

 

Take a simple gearbox. Put it in first gear and turn the input shaft. Then turn the output shaft. Do the same in fourth or fifth gear. What level of torque do you have to use for each test? The reason the highway codes states that is because reverse gear will prevent the engine turning fast on a downhill slope. What that wouldn't do is prevent rotation when torque is applied in the opposite direction from the engine. It depends on which end it's being turned from.

Bear in mind we are trying to prevent the engine from turning, not the wheels. Try turning the engine from the crankshaft pulley nut. Is it harder to turn the engine when the transmission is in 1st gear, or fourth? I would suggest the latter, hence fourth or fifth is preferable for what steve is trying to do.

Putting the handbrake with gear selection is also another method.

[Sparky]

^^ Yup.

[Chillidoggy]

1 hour ago, stevefh said:

Hi Ian, you have still not said how and with what you can jam the pump flange. I would like to try this method first before the two spanner method as you well know you can see next to nothing.Thanks

There’s no silver bullet.

My advice is to get yourself underneath the car with a lead lamp, and have a look. I have no idea what room you have as I always work with the car up on the lift. What tools do you have? Screwdrivers? Pry bars?

[jonwat]

2 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

Bear in mind we are trying to prevent the engine from turning, not the wheels. 

Oops, I out thought it & got that one arse backwards didn't I 

[Chillidoggy]

49 minutes ago, jonwat said:

Oops, I out thought it & got that one arse backwards didn't I 

 

An easy thing to do, but at least we got there in the end!

[EXCEL V8]

If you cut the belt off you could use a strap wrench.  You can even get them specifically for "fan belt" pulleys - a little expensive though.

Pete

[Chillidoggy]

It's been a while, have you managed to get that pulley off yet?

[stevefh]

Thanks Ian,  Cannot undo the rear higher bolt holding pump to bracket with a 200mm plus long 6mm Allen key using all the hand  leverage I can get ‘trapped’ under the esprit.

Cannot undo the high pressure hose to under chassis pipe without rounding the 18mm union nut with an open end spanner, bought an 18mm brake pipe spanner but rounded it some more so stopped.

New ,expensive idea, cut the high pressure chassis pipe at the union, cut the low pressure pipe, reservoir to pump ,near the pump end jubilee clip , as this has also rounded.

Will there now be enough clearance to remove the engine with the pump in place?

 If not ,and I need to cut the high pressure hose nearer the pump,is it reinforced with metal?

If SJ has all of them, the cost of renewing these 5 hoses and pipes is approximately £550.Are their under chassis pipes stainless ? Are their hose ends stainless,brass,other? Thanks for any comments 

[Sparky]

£550!!!?

For £500 I'll come to Wales and remove that bolt for ya.