Is electric really the answer?

[exeterjeep]

Should have given him a smoke alarm or a fire extinguisher?

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, Rambo said:

Another problem with an EV fire is volume of water required to put it out.

“An electric car crashed on a highway in Wakefield Thursday, bursting into flames that took more than two hours and 20,000 gallons of water to extinguish, police said.”

Typically a petrol car takes as little as 500 gallons to extinguish. With an EV car, the levels of lithium, cobalt and nickel contaminants are much, much higher and therefore require more intense clean up procedures.

I think it is the water required for cleanup that is the issue. You can put a flaming EV fully submerged in a swimming pool and it will continue to burn as the chemical process during the burning produces oxygen as abi-product - so the fire basically feeds itself. That's the really scary bit for me.

[ramjet]

Off topic, so sorry about that.

I'm mentioning this in here as there was reference to the MG3 and the MG4 a fair bit earlier than today.

The older gentleman that is the crossing guard at my Grandson's school bought an MG3 new.

No, he doesn't have to get rid of it due to the chassis rotting out as mentioned earlier.

He has had the car for maybe three years. Back at the dealer's for.........

 

 

an entire new engine.

In warranty, so no cost to him and no, I can't tell you why.

[jonwat]

Today's Times:

Electric cars should finally become more affordable next year because new government rules will levy a fine of £15,000 per car if too few are sold.

Under the zero emission vehicle (ZEV) mandate, which comes into force on January 1, manufacturers will have to ensure that 22 per cent of cars they sell every year are fully electric. The target will rise each year, hitting 80 per cent in 2030.

If too few electric cars are sold, the manufacturer will either have to pay a £15,000 fine for each petrol, diesel or hybrid model sold above that threshold, or buy “credits” from rivals such as Tesla, which has an all-electric range.

Car manufacturers such as Toyota and Ford will be under intense pressure to sell more electric cars, which account for only 16.3 per cent of the market according to the trade body, the SMMT.

They are therefore expected to cut prices, making electric cars a little more affordable. Many people are put off by the price of an electric car, with only nine new models available for under £30,000, compared with 90 petrol or diesel models on sale for less than that price.

[exeterjeep]

See some EV's are already heavily discounted , noticed a Mokka-e near me in Exeter new price  £39683 now £27699, that's almost £12k off. They will have to end up giving them away.

[C8RKH]

Of the brands on sale in the UK, currently only:

Tesla, Polestar, MG, Cupra, Porsche, Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes are compliant with the ZEV mandate (based on 2023 sales to Sept. 23).

Lotus will, I am sure, be compliant by the end of this year due to Eletre sales.

 

This legislation has been around for several years and was why the shift in the ban on ICE sales from 2030 to 2035 was not the big thing the climate twonks made it out to be, as the ZEV was actually a strong incentive for manufacturers to "push" EV's.  The issue has been the largesse with the manufacturers who have continued to push EV's at the higher end of the market price wise, which consumers are just not switched on to, in the numbers required.

 

The high (typically 30-45% extra) up front cost of a BEV, over the similar ICE, with reduced petrol prices and increased electricity prices, created a perfect storm that actually moved consumers away from BEV's. Who'd have thought a mass market would be price sensitive FFS!

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

20 minutes ago, jonwat said:

If too few electric cars are sold, the manufacturer will either have to pay a £15,000 fine for each petrol, diesel or hybrid model sold above that threshold, or buy “credits” from rivals such as Tesla, which has an all-electric range.

What does this mean? Other manufacturers will give money to the likes of Tesla for doing nothing?

[C8RKH]

Yes @LotusLeftLotusRight. It's very much like the now largely discredited carbon offsetting schemes where you could book a flight and then pay a small extra charge for a tree, or a carbon credit certificate, to be purchased.

In this case, if you take Tesla, as they are a 100% EV brand, they will meet the ZEV criteria for 2024 at 100% of sales. The target for 2024 is 22%. So if they sell 1000 cars in 2024, 220 will count to their ZEV target. Tick.  That will leave 780 cars sold that can be "traded" as an offset with another manufacturer. So say Ford could buy 780 "credits" for £xxxx to offset their "fine" which would be 780 * £15,000 = £11,700,000. So as long as what they pay Tesla, is less than the £11.7m fine (in this example) then Ford are in "profit" and Tesla is laughing it's arse off all the way to the bank!

It's a crazy system and the result of too much compromise.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Good grief. That’s insane, but just what Tesla needed: free money.

[C8RKH]

Totally insane. But unfortunately these days compromise and self interest is promoted everywhere.

Personally, the targets are mandatory, and no ability to "horse trade" should have been allowed. But that would have hurt too much I suspect.

[drdoom]

How clear is it by now that much of the imperative for transitioning to EV's is industry renewal? Governments will muck with market dynamics as described above and there will be unpleasant collateral consequences. Rules will be gamed, as always.

[drdoom]

Hard to ignore during times such as these are the geopolitics of industry and energy, surely also a factor guiding all this.

A quick thought or two to offer on the matter of individual motoring itself, somewhat impelled by persistently anti-auto policies popular in my city and elsewhere. It seems to me that the automobile undeniably must rank top tier alongside those few other things by which humanity has been greatly emancipated. It's preaching to the choir making my pitch here, of course, but how greatly would we rate the scale of joy, utility, and productivity the car has brought to our lives?

Cheers

[Danielg00]

The beauty of petrol (and why is superseded coal 100 years ago) is that it has a high energy density and is very portable.  So petrol doesn’t just power the car, it makes the car into its own ‘power station’. 

Electric cars take their power from power stations so have an element of inefficiency because of transmission losses.  But given the national grid, electricity is even easier to transmit than petrol.

Assuming my maths is OK….the most efficient ICE cars do ~70mpg, and with ~40kWh in a gallon of petrol, means they do 57kWh/100 miles.  The best electric cars are at 25kWh/100 miles - double the efficiency.

Then the CO2 - the national grid is about half gas, half zero emissions.  Which puts it at about 1/3 the emission of petrol.  So in the above example, the electric car emits 1/6 the CO2 of an ice car.

But there are lots of other things to consider, but electric cars are far more efficient, less CO2 and easier to ‘fill up’ (in a developed urban environment) than anything else going.  

But let’s see what else gets invented ???

 

[Techyd]

Welcome to the Forum!

[pete]

[Escape]

Repost, but fair enough as it made me laugh again. 😉

[ChrisJ]

I'd have a Tesla like this one

 

[C8RKH]

On 12/12/2023 at 11:48, Danielg00 said:

Then the CO2 - the national grid is about half gas, half zero emissions.  Which puts it at about 1/3 the emission of petrol.  So in the above example, the electric car emits 1/6 the CO2 of an ice car.

You need to factor in the transmission and distribution losses that occur (it's just simple physics unfortunately) of between 8 and 15% for the electricity moving from the point of creation (generation) to the point of use (in the home). That "loss" needs to be added to the EV usage figures.

[Chillidoggy]

I’m giving serious consideration to buying my current Ford Focus when the contract is up, and keeping it running.

[mayevora]

Is electric the answer……

Well if it stops me getting through another damn clutch and a breakdown then maybe yes! 😡

[C8RKH]

If it's not a clutch it'll be something else, probably your flux converter or something.

[drdoom]

The joy of driving makes up for the odd breakdown when it comes to Lotus.

[exeterjeep]

it's probably the mini. 

[Escape]

Germany has just cancelled the financial bonus when buying a new electric car. They've realised they don't have the money to keep forcing the transition. And in a level playing field, EVs have little chance against ICE. Probably (hopefully) the first step to make the EU and others realise the target of 2030 or 2035 is not attainable. 

[ramjet]

I see about three Teslas each day. I think they are different ones. Never taken much notice of the number plate/s. All of them speed. Well, they are probably allowed to being as 'green' as they are.

I believe that there are more Hyundia EVs out there at the moment. Again, haven't counted or kept up with exactly which models are what.

I drive a 1.5 litre turbocharged 4 cyl. I'm happy.