Is electric really the answer?

[Bibs]

I spent 2.5 years using a 13A socket and only on overnight cheap electricity too. 30 miles a night, it was usually pretty close to full most of the time.

[exeterjeep]

8 hours ago, Rambo said:

But you'd never get to drive your e-car because it would always be on charge 🫤

I currently use my 2 MG's roughly once a fortnight, the rest of the time they sit in the garage with their batteries off, if I scrapped them and bought  an electric car it may only get used a few times per month and not go very far. So could spend many days sitting plugged in. Even our main car - her 'indoors' new Evoque spends most of its time sitting outside.  So one small EV runabout would suit us - although she does not want one (yet). The only 2 EV's I would consider are possibly the MG4 Xpower and the as yet unseen type 134.

[Kimbers]

16 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

You could still charge your EV on a 13A socket and pay the standard house rate I suppose.   

Its how I charge my Plug in, 6 hours for 42 miles but its cheap motoring so it goes on charge just before I go to bed.

Though I got a new charging cable with my new car and that takes 10 hours for 42 miles. I still have my old cable and it's 4 hours quicker! Go figure! 

17 hours ago, oneshot said:

There are new build houses now being built with 3 phase by default. One for the house, one for EV charging and one for house heating (heat pumps). This then allows the Govt to charge a different tax rate on each phase.

And this is in the white paper for the Govt on charging EV's and how they will recover the tax they will lose on Petrol. But looking at those rates, it will make driving even more expensive and it's already nearly twice as expensive at peak rate already!!  There are so many nasty things coming on EV use that I really do doubt whether households on lower wages will be able to afford to drive? Now if you were a Conspiracy theorist you may say "Isn't that the end game?" Everyone sitting in their houses or paying taxes just to survive, not being able to go out whenever they want?

There will also be no environmental discount for company car users.

[Kimbers]

And another report from a Fleet user saying Hydrogen is better than EV. This about the vans they are testing but its telling that they found "Its studies have revealed several advantages compared to battery electric vans (BEVs), including improved payload, longer range, better efficiency and quicker refuelling."

Van trial reveals hydrogen fuel cell ‘copes with most use cases’, says Rivus | Case studies (fleetnews.co.uk)

[ramjet]

My Manager at work said that Toyota (I think) are claiming to have come up with a battery that weighs far less than the current batteries in EVs, lasts for 1,200 kms and takes ten minutes to charge.

Has that already been mentioned in this thread, or is it fantasy?

[electro_boy]

Yeah read some news snippets about Toyota's new battery tech but none of the articles went into any detail at all.  I think they are close to a viable consumer steady state battery but not sure... 

[MPx]

TheToyota thing is a solid state (instead of liquid) battery tech that they've built successfully in their labs but not yet scaled and no details available about eg: degredation over time; degredation over charge cycles; degredation if left at high charge....or low charge...or indeed any of the many other gotchas that are constantly trotted out about the current lithium stuff. 

[Escape]

Reducing mass and size for the same energy content by going to solid state is one thing. And likely viable, though maybe not at an affordable price level for the next few years.

Reducing charging time is another matter. Especially as the focus seems to be not on lighter batteries for the same range, but more range for the same weight. So more energy stored, meaning more energy has to be recharged. And that's were those annoying laws of physics come in. If you want to fully charge a 100kWh battery in 10 minutes, you need a charger that can deliver over 600kW peak power. Which means cables conducting 750A, even when working at 800V.  Which means an awful lot of heat needs to be safely dissipated (at 90% efficiency that's 60kW, more than enough to heat a large house!). Not to mention having the grid capacity to power several of those chargers simultaneously. And I think that is the main obstacle. Not so much range, I can happily live with a Lotus or Range V8 that needs fuel every 250 or 300 miles, as it only takes a couple of minutes to fill up. But if for every 300 miles traveled I need 15 minutes or more charging (if I can find a fast charger and am willing to pay the higher price), that does becomes a real nuisance.  

[ChrisJ]

Couple of years old - but still relevant

 

[C8RKH]

On 12/07/2023 at 20:33, exeterjeep said:

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/new-rules-over-rapid-public-ev-chargers-aim-to-encourage-switch-to-electric/286801

No timescale as yet....so could be years.....

The rules say the rapid chargers will, on average, have to be ‘reliable for 99 per cent of the time during each calendar year’, with the providers forced to publish information about their reliability.

EV drivers will also only need one app to pay for public charge points that are run by different firms. At the moment, they have to use multiple smartphone apps or membership cards for different networks.

All chargers that deliver above 8kW of power will have to have a contactless payment feature to speed up the charge, too.

Sounds like Utopia but where is the detail on how the are going to do this and who is going to pay for it. Usual bullshit from the Government departments who think they just say stuff, spread a little magic dust, and it all just happens...........

[Alistair Enser]

Paul,

 

I’ve had my Taycan 3 years and never looked back to be honest. Range is good , it is cheap to run and very comfy. I rarely have issues getting charged.

The biggest issue facing EVS ( apart from rising electricity costs) is the cost of the EVs themselves- especially if you want a decent range. They aren’t affordable for the masses.

Then again , my 43 year old 40k miles Esprit probably has a lower carbon footprint

[Rambo]

5 hours ago, Alistair Enser said:

Then again , my 43 year old 40k miles Esprit probably has a lower carbon footprint

It does. Maybe the Government should be subsidising us to keep these old Lotus cars on the road 👍

[Alistair Enser]

Now that is a great idea

 

[jonwat]

From today's Times:

Germany’s three big carmakers have cut their European production by a fifth compared with pre-pandemic levels, amid competition from Chinese rivals and falling demand for electric vehicles.

Volkswagen, BMW and Mercedes-Benz were already struggling with long-term problems, ranging from rising energy and labour costs in their central European heartlands to malfunctioning software and a tricky pivot away from the internal combustion engine. Initially they were able to ride out the effects of the pandemic thanks to a backlog of orders, but a recovery seems to be running out of steam.

The three collectively made half a million fewer cars at their European factories between January and May than they had done over the same months in 2019, according to figures released by MarkLines, an analytics service, to the Handelsblatt newspaper. This equated to a fall of nearly 20 per cent.

Volkswagen, in particular, appears to be suffering. Of 93,000 vehicles in the battery-electric ID range made in Europe over the first five months of the year, only 73,000 were sold, according to the data.

[ramjet]

There might be a glut of cheap Ladas in the future.

[JimmytheTurbo]

On 14/07/2023 at 11:41, Kimbers said:

And another report from a Fleet user saying Hydrogen is better than EV.

Your old man told me Hydrogen will never be introduced as its too dangerous to move and store. Does he still think this is the case?

I saw senator John Kerry saying for America to reach its target on 50% electric cars they will need to produce double the amount of electricity they are producing at the moment.

Kerry is a fan of switching to solar and wind... Lets see how this all works out for them. 

On 18/07/2023 at 13:04, ramjet said:

There might be a glut of cheap Ladas in the future.

My uncle bought a cheap Lada to drive to work on building sites. Ran it for years then sold it back to Russia for more than he bought it for. 

They are in demand as they are simple to run and fix. Not something most manufactures are willing to do.

[Kimbers]

2 hours ago, JimmytheTurbo said:

Your old man told me Hydrogen will never be introduced as its too dangerous to move and store. Does he still think this is the case?

 

That may have been some time ago. I know he doesn't like Electric as he feels it's just moving the problem a different way and as time goes on we will realise just how dirty Battery power is. And you still have to create the electricity which in itself is a challenge to do cleanly.

Manufacturers are finally waking up and developing new ways to drive vehicles. The hydrogen powered ICE for example and synthetic fuels. Plus of course the Hydrogen powered fuel cell. Hydrogen is safe to move and store as long as it is contained properly. Lets not forget, early petrol movement and storage had similar problems and so did cars all the way to the 80's that used to explode in flames at a touch on the rear end.

As they develop the fuel more I think we will see a big take up of it. Especially to begin with, Commercial vehicles. It's just not possible to use an EV on trucks yet alone vans. With the Peugeot Expert for example, once loaded, only doing 80 miles it just doesn't make sense. Whereas a Hydrogen van can do 300 miles. Now times that by 40 for a heavy truck and no matter how many batteries you have they won't do more than a few miles. And as the number of hydrogen filling stations rises so will people start looking at cars as a more viable option as well.

And Ships.

I think in 10 years time we will see a totally different outlook. But the issue here is the World Governments. They all have vested interests in Electric even though its the worst answer to the problem. Forcing car companies down that route is totally wrong but it's not about saving the planet, it's about looking like you are to get the votes!!

[Escape]

Although Hydrogen can be considered a fuel, it is more commonly used as a way to store energy. The main problem is it takes a lot more energy to produce then can be used again at the other end. Much less efficient then batteries in that respect. I see that as a much greater challenge than safety during transport, storage and refueling.

[C8RKH]

That may be true @escape for manufactured Hydrogen, but now that the EU has discovered it is sitting on a huge store of "natural hydrogen" that can just be tapped and pumped from the ground we may see some changes in future energy strategy. This find has the potential to do for the EU what North Sea Gas did for the UK some 70 years ago and would provide a vast, relatively cheap, energy source. I can imagine Russia, Saudi etc are not at all happy about this find and development.

Early days but exciting developments as natural hydrogen is a renewable energy that can be harvested, unlike oil &gas. The hydrogen is continuously created as water reacts with iron and other elements in the earth.

https://www.politico.eu/article/go-big-or-go-green-the-eus-massively-expanding-hydrogen-bet/

https://www.science.org/content/article/hidden-hydrogen-earth-may-hold-vast-stores-renewable-carbon-free-fuel

[JimmytheTurbo]

14 hours ago, Kimbers said:

as time goes on we will realise just how dirty Battery power is.

Yes I think soon there will be a huge jump away from electric as councils are forced to realise just how dirty EVs are.

I think it will be the same as how diesels were seen as green...then they were not.

 

Don't get me wrong there is a place for electric such as city run arounds but keeping a car running on the road another year has to be less wasteful then producing a shiny new one.

 

Thanks for your thoughts re Hydrogen.

I don't know the ins and outs of it but I always remembered what MJK had said a few years ago.

 

 

[C8RKH]

15 hours ago, Kimbers said:

Lets not forget, early petrol movement and storage had similar problems and so did cars all the way to the 80's that used to explode in flames at a touch on the rear end.

Plenty of recent videos of, for example, Lamborghini's spontaneously combusting when being revved at traffic lights etc...  Also, plenty of videos of EV's igniting too...

 

[Kimbers]

9 hours ago, Escape said:

Although Hydrogen can be considered a fuel, it is more commonly used as a way to store energy. The main problem is it takes a lot more energy to produce then can be used again at the other end. Much less efficient then batteries in that respect. I see that as a much greater challenge than safety during transport, storage and refueling.

Work out how much energy is used in production of Batteries, then making and running the EV's and then storing their toxic left overs for the next few hundred if not thousand years!

So the majority of Lithium is made in 3 places including South America and then shipped to mainly China. See below link to article showing how dirty the process is including it being highly likely, because much of it is made in poorer countries and China that they are using Coal fired power stations to pump the water/lithium mix up but also Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. 

Then the majority of Batteries are made in China, 70%. China is the biggest user of Coal fired power stations and the single biggest producer of global warming gases.

On an aside here, anyone worried that China, who has driven the lack of semi conductors limiting production of everything from cars to computers, is producing all the Ev batteries?

Then the car is made across the world as the Batteries are once again shipped around. Making the car costs power and then every time you fill up your car it costs more power and finally, after 6-10 years likely 8, the batteries will start to degrade and need to be stored safely.

I really REALLY do not see where owning an EV is clean. However its very rare to see an article querying all this as it's not PC and I don't care what people say, anti EV news is supressed. 

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

[JimmytheTurbo]

Wow in your link @Kimbers A tesla S contains nearly 63Kg of lithium 

 

"The production of lithium through evaporation ponds uses a lot of water - around 21 million litres per day. Approximately 2.2 million litres of water is needed to produce one ton of lithium."

 

[C8RKH]

So 140,000 litres of water for just the Lithium required for 1 Tesla S.

[Kimbers]

It's a really eye opening article.