Is electric really the answer?

[pete]

Followed an electric car today that I had never heard of, an ORA. Evidently Chinese and seems to be available for a reasonable pcp price. 

[jep]

EU is extremely worried about Chinese EV flooding the continent at cheap prices. 

This story is only gonna get bigger. Like the cars. 

Justin 

[exeterjeep]

2 minutes ago, pete said:

ORA

Yep the ORA Funky  Cat, seen some months ago at the Merc garage here in Exeter, strange looking thing. There are trade mark disputes over their  use of 'CAT'  and even ORA.

We also now have  BYD - another Chinese company, opened early August in Exeter. Went him and had a chat with them a few days after they opened. They are the biggest Chinese car makers that no-one has heard of in the UK. The BYD Atto3 looks better than the Funky Cat.

[C8RKH]

My cousin and her husband came to visit today. They have a 2022 Peugeot E-2008 BEV. They started the 95 mile journey with a stated range of 180 miles. After getting here, and getting ready to go back home, their range is now 40 miles!  Not great. They're off to a fast charger 10 miles away, to get charged up to get home. Crap!

They regularly travel down south to Cheshire. A 290 mile journey I can do there and back, on one tank, at 60+mpg in my Merc. My cousin laughed and said they need to make TWO charging stops on that journey to make it comfortably.

Whilst not the end of the world, that's just shite!  

Of course, the retort will be that you don't do those journeys every day. Yup. I get it. But all it currently proves to me is that the majority of EV's are currently good as second cars for the daily commute and the odd weekend journey. Anything else, I'd be sticking to my ICE car thank you.

 

[jep]

Insurance premiums are rising fast on EV. Faster than ICE, due to higher costs on EV repairs and longer labour times. 

One chap had his Tesla renewal go from £450 to £1,400.

[C8RKH]

Insurance premiums seem to have doubled for everything car related just recently, judging by posts on here and elsewhere.

[ChrisJ]

John Lewis stops insuring electric cars over repair cost fears (telegraph.co.uk)

behind a paywall 

[C8RKH]

The other interesting part of the conversation with my cousin re her EV experience, was that motorway driving really kills her range, hence why she needs to stop twice on that 290m journey. She said that in town, the Peugeot 2008-e was much better as the battery was constantly topped up by the regenerative braking effect, but of course, on the motorway, you have the significant impact of wind resistance/drag at 70mph and no regenerative energy produced.

I'm assuming that explains why I often see EV's battering down the outside lane at 85mph plus. They're trying to constantly make up time to make up for the time lost during stops.

[JimmytheTurbo]

On 30/09/2023 at 17:13, jep said:

One chap had his Tesla renewal go from £450 to £1,400.

I just heard Aviva has stopped insuring Tesla Model Ys? Too expensive to repair so they say.

I wonder how this will effect the Lotus electric car sales? I mean you cant drive here in the UK without insurance but what would be the repair cost of a high performance EV like the Lotus ones?

Maybe manufacturers will have to provide cost effective insurance or maybe a promise of low cost repair should something get damaged?

 

 

[yeller77]

3 hours ago, JimmytheTurbo said:

Maybe manufacturers will have to provide cost effective insurance or maybe a promise of low cost repair should something get damaged?

It's still going to be a very long time before an EV transportation economy is viable without extensive subsidies at all levels both industrial and governmental. That eventually comes out of everyone's pocket and at some point the paying populace will either happily go along or rebel. Sure, the ICE/petroleum industry has benefited from subsidies for many years (>100?) but they are now ingrained in our economies, such as with road use taxes as part of fuel prices, and will not be easily divorced while an entirely new infrastructure (with new tax revenue in above example) is forcibly evolved. My local state government is mulling over how to do a "mileage tax." That's going to get very messy.

[Kimbers]

On 29/09/2023 at 18:05, exeterjeep said:

Yep the ORA Funky  Cat, seen some months ago at the Merc garage here in Exeter, strange looking thing. There are trade mark disputes over their  use of 'CAT'  and even ORA.

We also now have  BYD - another Chinese company, opened early August in Exeter. Went him and had a chat with them a few days after they opened. They are the biggest Chinese car makers that no-one has heard of in the UK. The BYD Atto3 looks better than the Funky Cat.

I drove one (BYD) last week at Head Office. Looks great doesn't deliver is the message. The interior is awful. The dash on the steering wheel is fixed but on the wonk, my OCD went nuts, the plastics quality is shocking, build quality even worse. When you accelerate hard it almost rips the wheel out of your hand trying to pull to the right and when you lift off from accelerating it yanks you over to the left so you are constantly zig zagging. Horrid horrid thing.

[exeterjeep]

https://www.am-online.com/news/aftersales/2023/10/03/ev-warranty-claims-more-than-triple-in-three-years

Alongside the increasing volume of repairs, the average cost of an EV warranty claim has also shown a significant uptick.

For example, in 2021, the average claim across the MG EV range was £430 and in 2023 it is £2,200, a 390% increase. A similar trend can also be seen with Tesla, with the cost of claims rising 231% since 2021

While there remains a perception that EVs have fewer moving parts and less can go wrong with them, in reality we're seeing an equivalent mix of failures to petrol and diesel vehicles.

[Escape]

And I'm willing to bet spare parts will be more expensive, because they're more complex and there is less supply.

[Kimbers]

22 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

While there remains a perception that EVs have fewer moving parts and less can go wrong with them, in reality we're seeing an equivalent mix of failures to petrol and diesel vehicles.

EV Servicing is even more important than ICE. I have seen loads of comments elsewhere about how EV servicing is a rip off. Which it is for the interim services, which are just visual checks and filling the water bottle. However every second service includes an Aircon Service. Now that doesn't sound like much does it? But when you consider that the Aircon system regulates the battery temperature and that during charging and high useage they can get really warm, you can see the issue.

One OEM described it to me as "The Oil in an ICE service, only more involved". 

So lets describe a Aircon Service in an EV.

Firstly, for any EV service the ambient workshop temperature has to be regulated and noted on the service document. Which means Fred in a shed saying "Yeah its done mate" is breaking warranty rules, there goes your warranty.

Then the Batteries need to be isolated, Fred in a Shed just failed again cause he doesn't have the kit right now, Warranty invalidated. 

Now you need really expensive, specialist kit as the Car needs to be hooked up to a Specialist Computer. If Fred doesn't want to invest £100k, Warranty invalidated.

So we hook up the system, First off is checking the Aircon compressor Clutch via the software. If this isn't done cause you don't have the computer, Warranty invalidated.

Then we visually check the Belt, pipes and fan assembly and condenser.

Now the Dynamic Checks, here is where we note down the Ambient Temperature of the Workshop and the Hygrometer %, just to prove you haven't made it up. Not done? No warranty.

Lets do a pressure check next of the System. High pressure and Low pressure Bar's noted and....again, the temperature of the system. You didn't check the pressure and system temp? No warranty.

Moving on, Recommendation is a System flush and recharge, if not now definately next service. So lets replace both Pollen filters, the system needs an antibacterial flush and a recharge. Now start again. Pressure check etc. If not done no Warranty.

Here you go Mr customer. your car. Only thats not the end of it. You see, unlike an ICE car, the older it gets the Higher % of its value is in the batteries until, at around 5 years old the value of the car is less than the batteries. So any issue with the batteries and their 8 year Warranty makes the car worthless. Unlike a normal car, use someone without the quarter of a million £'s worth of kit and you have no warranty, Ergo the car is worthless. Any issue with the batteries you are looking at an average £8-10k for new batteries, but your car will be off the road for 18 months as all the battery production goes to new cars and thats the waiting time for replacements.

So, from an Industry point of view job done! You have ensured nice expensive servicing for your network not just for the 3 year vehicle warranty, but for at least 8 years of the battery warranty, bypassing EU rules as you have given old Fred a chance to service them but he chose not to buy the kit.  But after 8 years with no warranty on the batteries, battery life now at least 25% down off original, more if you have been fast charging, the car won't be sold by any dealer. Nice cheap EV motoring for someone, as long as they don't want to drive very far. 

So, bet you didn't know how complicated it all is. By the Way, this is all true and real the service info is from a Manufacturers Service sheet and the warranty issues I have already experienced.

2 year old EV with no warranty on the battery? I was offered scrap value. Nice.

[C8RKH]

Love your posts like this @Kimbers that delve "behind the scenes" so to say. Really insightful.

[Frickin_idiot]

When I first used the internet it was, quite frankly, for technically minded folks, or, as some may call, geeks. It was only when the technology mature to a sufficient level did the internet explode.

EV’s mirror this somewhat. The technology and infrastructure isn’t quite there at this moment. Government edicts won’t change that unless sufficient investment is forthcoming.

I much prefer and organic take up of new technology rather than this artificially forced model.

[Escape]

That's exactly the problem: the internet exploded after a gestation period for 'geeks', students etc. But EVs are pushed by governments, despite most manufacturers and the majority of the public having little or no interest, and yet are forced down the EV road whether they like it or not and not really taking into account all the different advantages and disadvantages. I'd also argue the explosion of the internet was less disruptive because it is largely entertainment based (such as this forum), whereas mobility is quite essential and can be considered a right. All the more reason to let it evolve, as it has for centuries, instead of force a revolution nobody really wants (apart from Musk & China maybe). And yes, I'll admit the explosion of the internet does have it's disadvantages, like forms and products you can only get online (a genuine problem for some older people) or bars without a proper menu but only a QR code (my pet hate as I wont use a smart phone).

[JimmytheTurbo]

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by JimmytheTurbo

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

So after 11881 miles, my VW Passat GTE Estate PHEV has consumed 199.9 gallons of unleaded. This equates to 59.4 mpg. That is a mix of predominantly long distance driving, as well as max. 35 mile battery-only local runs. I charge up at home using the standard 3 pin plug charger. I have never used a fast charger or topped up via any charger during a long run, so any battery charging en route is performed by the ICE.

Oh and in a recent post I mentioned that a Renault Twingo had taken up permanent residence in one of the two new electric vehicle charging only parking bays nearby. Well it has now been joined by a dirty great L322 early 2000s Range Rover in the second bay. So that’s that then. Local charging infrastructure paid for and installed, but now unavailable for anyone to use. Box ticked for the Council though.

[C8RKH]

My diesel Merc E cabriolet daily has averaged 57.1 mpg over the last 9k, mostly motorway, miles. I know which I'd rather drive

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

It’s the only way to arrive at a Tanning Salon. 😄

[C8RKH]

And don't forget the nail bar!

[Kimbers]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

My diesel Merc E cabriolet daily has averaged 57.1 mpg over the last 9k, mostly motorway, miles. I know which I'd rather drive

 

My Sportage PHEV, only ever charged at home on 3 din plug has just clocked over 6000. Thanks to 4 long trips in the last 6 weeks my average fuel economy has dropped from 171mpg to 152mpg. On a long trip I can get just over 62mpg using the 42 miles electric for the last 40 miles, but only do that if I know there's a free charger or 3 din plug wherever I am going. But we are going into winter so my petrol engine will have to be used more to heat the car up.

[Chillidoggy]

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

My diesel Merc E cabriolet daily has averaged 57.1 mpg over the last 9k, mostly motorway, miles. I know which I'd rather drive

 

My Esprit averaged a mere 25 mpg. I’d still take that over an EV.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

My Sportage PHEV, only ever charged at home on 3 din plug has just clocked over 6000. Thanks to 4 long trips in the last 6 weeks my average fuel economy has dropped from 171mpg to 152mpg.

Now that's more like it and makes a strong case for the PHEV.

I have to admit that I looked at a Kia EV6 GT yesterday. Lovely bit of kit...