Is electric really the answer?

[Rambo]

End of the road for EV hires?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/cars/article-12951939/hertz-sell-fleet-tesla.html

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Hmm, could be canny second-hand buys for future classic car owners, like the fabled Shelby Mustang GT350H.

Maybe not… 🤣

[Kimbers]

They have sold 1/3 of their fleet, not the whole thing. But we are in total agreement. They are very difficult to run as a rental, they are more expensive to buy, you earn less income on them as they have to be relatively cheap to rent and they invariably lose a fortune in their net worth by the end of their term.

Add in that no company supplies a 3 din home charging cable in a full electric anymore, filling with Electric at a services on a major route is a crap shoot of guessing whether there is one, if it works, if it has 3 people waiting to charge, or if you can afford the cost to fill it (which is twice that of a normal car), then it makes it even less desirable to a rental customer.

The exception to the rule tends to be in Cities like London where there is a congestion charge.

 

 

6 hours ago, Rambo said:

End of the road for EV hires?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/cars/article-12951939/hertz-sell-fleet-tesla.html

 

[C8RKH]

Had a great conversation with an EV fleet rental company today, Electric Vans. They work with all the major manufacturers and supply a few thousand vans. Biggest issue is charging and range.

A fully loaded van, not being used as a parcel delivery van, is making around 105 miles of range a day, tops. Fully loaded and multiple drops, gets down to 75 miles.

The guys driving them will charge anywhere, they don't care about the cost per KW, as they don't pay it. 

The cost per mile of the E-Van versus a diesel van is way higher. And I mean, way higher. It's killing the businesses running them.

Due to the ZEV mandate, they HAVE TO TAKE a minimum of 10% E-vans, or they won't be supplied with ICE vans - which by the way, EVERYONE still wants, unless as @Kimbers says they have a significant ULEZ issue.

Electric is part of the answer. Is it the answer? Hell no.

 

Next conversation was around green hydrogen. Massive growth opportunity. The kicker, we'll be creating tonnes of the stuff in the UK, but we won't be using it, the Germans, Dutch and French are willing to buy as much as we can produce and ship to replace Russian Gas.

Hydrogen is part of the answer. Is the answer? Hell no.

 

The answer is a mix of carbon free/neutral fuel sources, with a whole radical shift in how we think about moving ourselves, people, packages and goods around the country.

Within 10 years most of our major cities will have ULEZ zones. Ownership of a car within a city is going to be tough. Very tough. Even if you have space to park/store one, you'll be banned from most streets which will increasingly be given over to pedestrian and cycle highways.

Those that aren't, will provide priority access to cycles and buses.

People living outside the cities, and some major towns, will drive to the edge. Park. Then ride into the centres. No cars!

Enjoy your freedoms, and your cars, today. For tomorrow, they'll be gone.

[C8RKH]

Was out for a walk today and we have a new DC charging station in Dundee - consists of 6 charging stations each with two "guns".

First thing I noticed was that if they had built it 5 meters further in, they could have doubles the number of charging bays from 12 to 24 just buy using 6 charging stations with four "guns" each. A massive waste of an opportunity in my humble opinion.

I noticed that the public charge was 50p per KWH and believe that most EV's do 3-4 miles per KW. So nominally, I make that 12.5p - 16.5p per mile.

The average diesel car does 12-14 miles per litre. So I make that around 10p - 12p per mile.

So when you factor in the typical 25-40% increase in the cost of the typical EV to ICE variant, AND, add in the Road Fund Licence for the ICE, the economics of EV's right now, look shite to be honest.  I used average diesel prices of £1.44 per litre.

VW ID.3 starts at £36,550.  RFL (3 years) = zero  40,000 miles at above rates = £5000 - £6,600  Depreciation (46% over three years) - £16,813 - 3 year cost 40k miles = £23,413

VW Golf starts at £26,945. RFL (3 years 😃 =  1 x £210 + 2 x £180) = £570  40,000 miles at above rates = £4,000 - £4,800  Depreciation (12% over first 3 years) - £3,233 - 3 year cost =£8,603

 

[exeterjeep]

26 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

add in the Road Fund Licence for the ICE

And from April 2025 EV's will pay RFL as well,  but not sure what rate it will be.

After the first year of registration electric cars will then pay the standard annual VED rate 

Also the  £40,000 supplement will start to apply as well.

[mg4lotus]

Shocking figures.

Are the punters in the UK the only ones being ripped off? What' it like in other countries?

[ramjet]

The last time I looked, EVs were almost twice the price of their ICE equivalent.

I can't find the pricing on public charging. Not sure why. It was meant to be on the screens that I was looking at, but I could not see it.

I won't be buying one.

[Escape]

8 hours ago, mg4lotus said:

Shocking figures.

Are the punters in the UK the only ones being ripped off? What' it like in other countries?

It's not a rip off, it plain and simple economics. The companies investing in charging stations are putting in a lot of money, so they want to see a return. And they know the EV drivers have little or no choice, so the logical outcome is high prices to become profitable as soon as possible. Of course this will have an effect on the growth of the EV fleet, but rarely are long term effects considered as most businesses just want to see a quick profit, never mind what tomorrow brings.

[eclat22]

Is this the start.  https://www.visordown.com/news/general/anglesey-shocks-banning-electric-vehicles-track-days

[pete]

Didn't think ev s were about making it cheaper for us

[C8RKH]

Well if it works out as twice the price, who will be buying?  Consumers at the mid-lower ends are price sensitive. Not everyone will be willing to lose £60=80k on a £120-130k EV in 3 years.

Personally, I think it's sheer madness to accept a £20-30k loss (that's just depreciation) per year on any car. But I must just be a tight twat.

[exeterjeep]

After the 1 bus fire in London as reported the other day....

Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67967421

A fleet of electric buses have been withdrawn in south London after a double-decker caught fire on Thursday.

The fire started during the morning rush hour in Wimbledon and the electric bus was quickly evacuated.

Transport for London (TfL) said electric buses on route 200, which runs between Raynes Park and Mitcham, had been removed from service "as a precaution".

Another bus caught fire on Friday, which TfL said was "unrelated".

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Good to know that an EV bus fire on Thursday didn’t cause a different EV bus to catch fire the next day. 

[ChrisJ]

Travelled in my first EV on Thursday., a BYD something being used as a taxi in Zimbabwe from Victoria Falls Airport to the 🇿🇼 🇿🇲 border - 20 kms. Driver said it was great as that was about the max distance it travelled. 

Car cost 60k USD

Was looking forward to the reverse journey today. Driver pitched up in a twin cab diesel. Where's the EV I asked. We have no power at the office he replied, so unable to charge it. 

I did have a silent laugh. 

[Bibs]

On 13/01/2024 at 13:45, C8RKH said:

public charge was 50p per KWH

I pay 7.5p per KWH overnight charging. I never use public chargers. It's akin to filling up at a motorway service station and I don't think I've ever done that either. 

[Escape]

On long journeys I do fill up on the motorways. I know it's more expensive, but only ca 5% difference, so not worth the hassle of driving around trying to find a cheaper station. But with these price differences, it becomes a different story. And it will be a lot harder to find an alternative charging point as well.

[Bibs]

Our motorway services are usually about 20-30% more expensive, it's daylight robbery! 

Unleaded is £1.35/l at my local garage and currently £1.75 on the M25.

[C8RKH]

16 hours ago, Bibs said:

I pay 7.5p per KWH overnight charging. I never use public chargers. It's akin to filling up at a motorway service station and I don't think I've ever done that either. 

Even with the 7.5p the figures just don't add up. Whilst I agree with you @pete that no one said an EV would save you money (apart from the early EV owners who were obsessed with telling everyone else how cheap their motoring was), if it is significantly more, then people just will not make the switch until they are absolutely forced to.

As you can see below @Bibs, assuming you do ALL your charging at home (which the average person will not), then the EV variant still works out at double the cost of ICE.

Not quite what the EV fan boys, when they were in here and active, where telling us.

VW ID.3 starts at £36,550.  RFL (3 years) = zero  40,000 miles at 7.5p per kwh = £1000  Depreciation (46% over three years) - £16,813 - 3 year cost 40k miles = £17,813

VW Golf starts at £26,945. RFL (3 years 😃 =  1 x £210 + 2 x £180) = £570  40,000 miles at above rates = £4,000 - £4,800  Depreciation (12% over first 3 years) - £3,233 - 3 year cost =£8,603

 

Quite a balanced article here: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-buying-guides/porsche-taycan--ph-used-buying-guide/48065 re buying a second hand Taycan.  £50k for a new battery pack!  No thanks. I think I'll stay right away from that.

[Kimbers]

17 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Our motorway services are usually about 20-30% more expensive, it's daylight robbery! 

Unleaded is £1.35/l at my local garage and currently £1.75 on the M25.

It's not just Motorways. ALL public chargers are a lot more expensive. We have a big site just outside Norwich and its £47 to put 200 miles of charge.

AND you are all forgetting the Govt WHite paper to start charging tax on any dual phase and above charging. If you have a home charger they can seperate your household single phase from car charger double phase and tax you on it. I am told minimum is VAT at 20% and they want to recover the lost petrol tax so that will be another 30p per £1.

However you won't see this until they have enough of a captive audience that you HAVE to pay it. 

There's also been a lot of talk of banning 3 din trickle charge cables due to safety issues. Fire mainly. However this is all smoke and mirrors as they produce less heat i the cars than a fast charger. Again, it's just a way to seperate the home car charging as you will have to have a charger fitted if you can't buy a 3 din charger.

Oh but don't forget a charger will cost you £1500 as a  minimum on top of everything else!

[Bibs]

@C8RKH - It would be interesting to know the %age of EV's that are leased.

I leased my Kia through the business, saved some VAT and Corp Tax and once I added in the fuel savings over the 2.5 years the car cost me less than £100/month to run for 1,000 miles/month for 2.5 years.

[Escape]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

Our motorway services are usually about 20-30% more expensive, it's daylight robbery! 

Unleaded is £1.35/l at my local garage and currently £1.75 on the M25.

Never knew the difference was that big! Over here unleaded is €1.66/l at the moment, which is the maximum price set by the government and used on motorways etc. Local stations typically give 5-10% discount, especially the unmanned ones.

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, Bibs said:

@C8RKH - It would be interesting to know the %age of EV's that are leased.

I leased my Kia through the business, saved some VAT and Corp Tax and once I added in the fuel savings over the 2.5 years the car cost me less than £100/month to run for 1,000 miles/month for 2.5 years.

The vast majority of those on the road currently, were/are, leased. The average consumer has shied away due to the high initial cost, the perception of "battery life/replacement issues", range anxiety.

[Sparky]

We're all doomed!

[MPx]

10 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Even with the 7.5p the figures just don't add up. Whilst I agree with you @pete that no one said an EV would save you money (apart from the early EV owners who were obsessed with telling everyone else how cheap their motoring was), if it is significantly more, then people just will not make the switch until they are absolutely forced to.

As I've said before is horses for courses.  Many of us have more than one car, including the relatively less well off as can be seen whenever you go around a "modern" housing estate where the planning logic was if we don't allow for any parking spaces people won't have cars ... only they do and are so densely parked its hard actually use the streets.  Not all cars in the stable need to have a range of 400 miles or more.  It remains the case that the most common journeys for most people are actually under 10 miles and that sort of distance or less is pretty much as bad as it can be for ICE in terms of efficiency/polution/and longevity.  An EV, on the other hand, excels at 10mile and less journeys.

We've had the i3 coming up 6 years this summer.  It replaced a Suzuki Jimny 1.3 petrol - which was a great fun and capable car but not very frugal ~35mpg.  It was serviced/mot'd annually at the main stealer which typically came to £3-400.  We did about 4k miles in it per year.  It depreciated to 30% of what I initially paid for it over 10 years - amzing!  The i3 gets a service every 2 years and both so far have been under £300 even at BMW prices - that's basically because they don't do anything other than replace the brake fluid.  They do the MOT for £45.  We charge up overnight at our rate off peak rate of 15p/kWhr and with our usage (still 4k/yr) we only need to do so once or sometimes twice a week.  Looking at values it appears to have depreciated about 50% over the 6 years - but we did buy it new instead of at 1 year old like the Jimny.  I keep my cars a long time because I don't like taking the depreciation hit - if this one lasts 10 years (against the odds given all the gloom an doom merchants about battery deg) and then I have to throw it away - then it will have cost me £3k/year.  I can live with that and in practice I expect it still to have some value.  What does a £250 pcp buy you?