Future of Lotus

[C8RKH]

We're going full circle, I never brought up the GT4 as the answer to the car @mdavies desired, and the GT4 is not road legal as far as I am aware. So anything else is just tittle tattle. 

[blindside]

9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Funny how they have been able to get the ultra high performance electric bread vans out first, which makes your point re the "higher performance ones initially" rather moot.

😂😂😂Great description Andy. Sad but true.

If you want something that matches/exceeds “Chapmanesque principles” you’d have to consider the Alpine A110 R. Although sadly it’s Megane Trophy derived 4 pot engine just doesn’t have enough puff to make it the complete performance package.

[webfoot]

Full article behind a paywall but gives some info.

By my calc approx 4,400 Electres and 2,600 Emiras.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-finance/lotus-posts-£594m-loss-2023-ahead-ev-sales-growth

 

and 

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/lotus-breaks-sales-record-posts-594m-loss/48391

 

and the investor Relations release with full breakdown of car sales

https://ir.group-lotus.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lotus-technology-reports-unaudited-fourth-quarter-and-full-year

 

 

Edited April 8 by webfoot
Added other links

[NG5]

Came across this list of lotus dealers in 1970 on fleabay (that someone snapped up before I bid)

As far as I can make out not one of them still are. Mind you that could probably be said of ford or vauxhall dealers from 1970.

 

[Bazza 907]

Those 2023 Full year results make interesting reading.

[exeterjeep]

Lotus UK registrations for March was 185 making ytd 272.

15 hours ago, NG5 said:

Came across this list of lotus dealers in 1970 on fleabay

recognise a few names on there

[Bibs]

15 hours ago, Bazza 907 said:

Those 2023 Full year results make interesting reading.

I wish I understood it all! 

As far as I can see, that's for Lotus Tech Inc which is the NASDAQ listed company. Lotus are now quite convoluted, with Group Lotus, Lotus Cars, Lotus Tech Innovate etc so I wonder how representative those figures are of the company as a whole.

[C8RKH]

Year on year cash is down 300k, and that could be accounted for by a near 300k increase in inventory that is in the sales pipeline but not yet sold - so stock cars and build components.

Impressive sales growth, but we still need to see how long term the sales growth as the EV headwinds right now are really strong across key markets in the UK, US and Europe.

[KusaKusa]

Lots of details in this article: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/lotus-looks-boost-growth-us-suv-sedan-ev-launches

[Bibs]

I've looked through this topic for the first mention of the direct sales model. Just to add a comment that it's perhaps not the future

[exeterjeep]

15 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Just to add a comment that it's perhaps not the future

Some manufacturers have pulled back from going this way, and may be one will revert back.

[webfoot]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-manufacturing/lotus-reviews-future-sports-car-design-studio-hethel

Oh dear.... start of the inevitable decline of Hethel? Discuss.

[jep]

Didn't the design studio use to be in Coventry? M250 era, circa 2002? 

Justin 

[C8RKH]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/light-work-coventry-designers-reimagining-lotus

Edited April 11 by Bravo73

[jonwat]

Lotus is at last being given the chance to thrive (paywall)

Edited April 12 by jonwat

[exeterjeep]

On 23/03/2024 at 12:20, exeterjeep said:

Been in to Lotus Exeter this morning and a notice says it's closing  next week. They are still doing test drives etc.

Went in today, the last man standing at Lotus Exeter leaves this Friday. Showroom now empty, a couple of cars still in workshop. But notice on door gives details of where to go/who to contact in case of test drives/servicing etc. 

Not a great future for Lotus owners/prospective ones in the SW, particularly with some interesting new models due.

[CocoPops]

On 20/03/2024 at 08:26, CocoPops said:

Lotus Berkshire appears on google maps as being next door to "Jardine Select" in Bracknell...

Jardine Motors is a multi brand multi national dealer... so has deep pockets.

I can confirm, having visited yesterday...

They are indeed using part of the Jardine Select Showroom to house "Lotus Berkshire".
They are still setting up, no branding or Lotus Totem yet.
4 Emira (inc 2 i4) and 2 Eletre.

Servicing will be done in the adjacent McLaren service centre.

[webfoot]

Mike Johnstone leaving after only a year at Lotus.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-corporate/lotus-commercial-chief-leaves-after-year

Edited April 25 by webfoot

[C8RKH]

Reading that press release I worry about the long term future of Hethel, the signs are there that Hethel will just become a manufacturing only location which, if we're honest, leaves open the future possibility to consolidate all manufacturing in China.

Yes, there has been a significant investment in Hethel but that woukd be largely recouped if the site was sold off for housing etc.

[Nelly]

If Geely hadn't bought Lotus, the company may have gone and Hethel would have been sold anyway - agree that its a concern, but at least its had a stay of execution to prove itself.

I would say the Lotus ethos isn't a sustainable model anymore, otherwise they wouldn't be making the sort of cars the hardcore fanbase don't like.  Its a weird situation, the Chinese side of things has to exist for the "Lotus" side of things to survive at all.

[C8RKH]

It's not that the Lotus ethos is not sustainable, after all Caterham still survives. Ginetta is still going. The MX5 continues to sell etc.

Lotus, for whatever reason, was not content with being a small volume car manufacturer pandering to a niche. You had the Bah Bah sheep mentality that seemed to think that Lotus should b e up their with Ferrari, Porsche, Bentley, Aston Martin et al. The brand, unlike some of the products, has just never had that cachet. 

Oodles and oodles of cash have been wasted chasing that "dream" whilst arguably, at the same time, moving the products away from the hard core fan base.

We now have a situation where Lotus is basically a Chinese owned and run company. There is little real difference, at the very top, to how Lotus and MG are now run by the Chinese and increasingly dominated by the needs, desires and direction of that home market. 

MG did not have the manufacturing base to contend with in the UK, so they are more overt in terms of their Chinese ownership, but their products are largely well made, do OK in the reviews, and are selling like hot cakes to the masses making their Chinese owners some good money and reinforcing the value of the brand etc - revenues up by 122% and profits up from £4.3m to £54m in the past year). Whilst Lotus has moved to the upper "premium" market, MG has focused on cars consumers can afford to buy in large numbers.

Lotus on the other hand, has continued its ever stretching move to the upper premium sector, with new products, for new consumers in a new market, and like MG, the manufacturing legacy (and the customers attracted by it) in the UK is less and less important to the market they are chasing.

I am totally aware that Lotus as a company has a perfect right to change, adapt, and move on. However, let us not for one minute pretend that the Lotus we see now, and in the future, has much to do with the legacy of Chapman, Hethel, Kimberely etc. Yes they will "use" the legacy for marketing, but that is increasingly all I believe it is, just marketing.

Lotus is dead. Long live Lotus.

[Frickin_idiot]

Interesting development 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-corporate/lotus-commercial-chief-leaves-after-18-months

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

What? Again?

[DarrylV8]

Yes why not we need bad news, especially when it’s twice 

[Kimbers]

23 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Reading that press release I worry about the long term future of Hethel, the signs are there that Hethel will just become a manufacturing only location which, if we're honest, leaves open the future possibility to consolidate all manufacturing in China.

Yes, there has been a significant investment in Hethel but that woukd be largely recouped if the site was sold off for housing etc.

You may have missed the meaning from what was disclosed as Hethel being a "manufacturing Only" location. They stop the manufacture of ICE cars in 2027. All the EV's are made in China. So what does that say? As they won't be manufacturing anything and its a Manufacturing only location?

As for the "selling the site for Housing" that will never happen. I have lived in South Norfolk nearly all my life and that area is protected from New building (especially on that scale) for many reasons. If they try and sell it, believe me, it won't make them very much at all.

22 hours ago, Nelly said:

If Geely hadn't bought Lotus, the company may have gone and Hethel would have been sold anyway - agree that its a concern, but at least its had a stay of execution to prove itself.

I would say the Lotus ethos isn't a sustainable model anymore, otherwise they wouldn't be making the sort of cars the hardcore fanbase don't like.  Its a weird situation, the Chinese side of things has to exist for the "Lotus" side of things to survive at all.

I don't think this is true. But it's all "What If's". If Proton hadn't brought Bahar in, Lotus had a viable plan going forward and MJK had started to make profits in 2008 and going forward. The Esprit would have been produced and new Smaller entry level cars as well as the planned Hypercar. But that all went to crap.

Then, what you say about Geely is also incorrect. Look at why they have made such large losses and why the Share price has bombed (which in turn says that investors have no faith in their plans)

1. Shops etc in central London/Paris etc. Something that was done before and failed abysmally. You may get a few London Centric people wandering in but they are 100% a vanity project. The European model is very much a dealer based Sales system. Less than 5% of cars are now ordered online without a dealer visit.

2. Geely don't seem to be in touch with the Market in Europe. One which is pushing back big time against EV and being forced into Something they don't want. The same is true of the US and other area's. However what Geely see is their own country which has a good infrastructure and really cheap electricity mainly produced by Coal. They don't see that Electric is so expensive here and there is no infrastructure. 

3. The reason why they stopped production of their best selling cars, Elise, Exige, Evora 2 years before they were ready to bring out the Emira was a terrible business and brand destroying idea. It makes no sense to cancel models bringing in income, Service work and parts/Aftermarket sales, while you basically develop their one replacement for 3 models. (and it takes 2 years before deliveries start). As @C8RKH says, the MX5 and other brands are catering to a large market which has less and less models in it due to companies going EV.  They are doing very well thank you.

4. Despite Lotus's aspirations of being a "Lifestyle" EV brand. The way EV's are going and the way Many manufacturers are frantically looking at alternatives, means Lotus may not exist period. To even sell vehicles, Tesla have once again hugely dropped their prices. What was £60k brand new 2 years ago you can now buy for £30k. I have experience of buying and selling EV's (selling is a bit of a push as they don't sell very well) and buying a small EV at £32000 and selling it a year later at £12500 is not a viable proposition. These are the figures we are dealing with. So it's likely your "Lifestyle EV" you buy for £120,000 is worth less than £40,000 a year or 2 later. No one can sustain those losses, retail or fleet and neither can Contract Hire or PCP companies. And it's a false economy. Because of the lack of demand and dislike for EV's amongst the "General population" the cheaper you make them the worse it gets as they are worth even less used.

5. If you need any more proof of the way things are going:

India Govt have announced Hydrogen not EV is their planned route but only Carbon zero by 2050. 
Russia/China have said Carbon Zero by 2050
America is less than 25% towards where they should be as of today, for carbon Neutral, and these plans are by 2050 anyway!
German Car manufacturers pushing for Alternative fuel vehicles (Hybrids and PHEV's) to be included in the EV target rather than the ICE part of the plans
Toyota, Honda and GM all starting to hedge their bets
Watering down of EV plans and Carbon Neutral Targets worldwide as the cost starts to hit home and the "Normal working person" pushes back.
Even Scotland, who were one of the most vocal on Carbon Neutral have lost their Govt coalition due to the watering down of Carbon Neutral policies.

Frankly, I'm a little bored with harping on about it but a change is coming and Geely need to understand this.

Extend the Emira, bring out a new Small sports car and/or a new Espirt style car, Non EV and use hybrids instead of EV's. Hybrids and PHEV's are still included.