Future of Lotus

[KAS-118]

Well I think its great that Lotus has had its most profitable year and increased World Wide Sales - its slightly disappointing that UK Sales fell 11.47% from 279 to 247; although in % terms it is comparable with Porsche who feel 11.49%

[Kimbers]

Most manufacturers fell. Kia were one of the few who actually increased sales but many had a terrible year.

[C8RKH]

On 11/01/2019 at 10:19, DarrylV8 said:

4WD yes please Lotus yes even if electric, need to move with the times.

I think we've had four wheel drive cars in various guises for about 100 years, so hardly moving with the times is it? In fact, arguably the greatest Audi R8 of all time was released last last year, the RWS, and that is rear wheel drive only I believe. 

I can see why some people want Lotus to produce cars just like everyone else does. I get it. But they won't be for me.

If I want a continent crushing GT car, able to take me and the missus for two, three weeks touring around Europe in style, then I'll have a DB9/DB11 or a Bentley Continental GT please.  All the heritage and plushness you would want in a GT.

If I want a "same old" supercar, then the McLaren/911GT/AMG GT or the Huracan fit the bill - enough cupholders and vavavoom for everyone.

However, if I wanted something different. Accomplished. Slightly old school (in a good way). Solid and analog. not pretentious and slightly flying under the RADAR - then i really cannot think of anything more desirable right now than an Evora GT410/430 or an Exige 380-430.  These cars are true Lotus cars - they link in opinion to the past - wonderful but slightly flawed and a work of genius (especially when you consider the budget and manpower that Lotus had at its disposal to do the job).

If Lotus does move with the times then I can imagine my little 410Sport being a keeper for a very long time and when or if it came to change, then if Lotus cars where just like all the others than I would need to consider the Vantage, Bentley GT, AM DB11, Porsche 911 GTx etc and maybe Lotus would win, maybe it would not. However, it stayed true and evolved the car, to retain some of the characteristics around lightweight, simplicity, feel, lowish volume then I'd order an Esprit! I'm a dullard or a luddite I guess.

 

[TLF News]

Lotus further bolsters Senior Team with new Comms/PR & Marketing Directors

[scotty435]

Fantastic addition’s to the team great things are coming 🏎🌪

[C8RKH]

Maybe, time will tell. I am starting to think that I am out of kilter with the majority (nothing new there I suppose) but all this talk of electric, luxury, etc and I can't help but feel we are going to get more of the same - i.e. 500bhp plus barges (you need at least 500bhp to move the bloody things as they are that heavy) with leather everywhere and cupholders and heads-up displays and every gizmo under the sun.  Do we really need all this in a Lotus? I do hope I am wrong.

I use a Renault Clio for daily driver. It has keyless entry (which is a right fcuking pain in the arse at times as sometimes it decides to lock the doors when you don't want it to etc).  It has friggin' stop start technology that means if you park up to make a call or listen to the radio then at some point the car decides to turn itself off - argh - halfway through a bloody bluetooth conversation.

But then it could be worse i suppose. The wife has a Qashqai and that has a sodding "automatic handbrake". I mean, really, wtf is all that about? Is it really so hard to just pull a freakin' lever that you need a computer to do it all for you? Hill starts - well, maybe it will release, maybe it won't.  Stop start technology that decides to switch of the engine just as you want to pull away from the lights - at best, a delay to progress, at worse the friggin' car stalls.  It also has keyless entry, but woe betide you if you pull up and let the engine switch itself off (that lovely stop:start tech again) and then open the drivers door - argh - bing bing bing, bong bong bong, friggin' thing. You need to close the bloody door, hit the bloody engine start button, let the engine start, then hit the button to switch it off, then open the drivers door a second time. Argh!!!  It used to take me less time to reboot a mainframe in the 80's!!! FFS, really, is it that hard to just insert a key and turn? And then to top it all, the bloody keyless systems are so easy to scam and copy cars are flying off drive ways stolen to order!  Wonderful, talk about moving with the times.

80% of this so called luxury tech is just absolutely useless. When it works its OK, possibly a minor irritation, when it doesn't the cars shagged! And expensive to fix. And off the road whilst they order in the special parts for the tech as they are never in stock.

I had a hire car with the radar cruise control - argh, hated every minute of using it. Just did not see the point and it would over zealously slow you down on the motorway - driving on the inside lane (as one should when not overtaking) and you come upon someone in the middle lane usually in a day dream, so just as you continue to pull out to "fast lane"  -whooo, steady on there - the friggin' radar detects the middle lane hogger, gently applies the brakes and cuts the throttle - argh - really - FFS - Nooooooooooooooo!

If you want toys, go to Smyths or Argos, now that Toys R Us, Woolworths and Beatties are long gone (ooooo, Beatties, the hours I used to spend in their on a Saturday morning as a kid drooling at the scalextric, Hornby trains, Airfix and Tamiya models - swooooooooon). If you want a car to drive, and feel part of, then go to Lotus. I do hope it stays that way.

My god I haven't had such a good rant since before Christmas. That's better......

[Nathan Pitman]

Please don’t stop. So much truth.

[C8RKH]

You just wait Nathan. The Cupholder brigade will be on here soon - slagging me off for being a ludite and not moving with the times and not wanting to be able to drink my coffee whilst navigating one of gods greatest A roads at 120kleptons.

The majority of tech in cars today is just dead weight, dead expensive and dead unreliable as it ages. Keep it simple stioopid is why Lotus cars are so bloody great compared to the over engineered competition.

There I go again, god I need a beer - I wonder if i can get a gadget for the car that serves me a beer as it goes - oh, christ, I've just found the perfect reason why we all need a driverless car - so we can get pissed IN THE CAR whilst going to the pub! Damn, maybe tech's a good thing after all....

[Bravo73]

18 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Keep it simple stioopid is why Lotus cars are so bloody great compared to the over engineered competition.

Lotus only managed to sell 1,600 cars last year. In the entire world. 

The market has spoken, unfortunately. 

[Nathan Pitman]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

You just wait Nathan. The Cupholder brigade will be on here soon - slagging me off for being a ludite and not moving with the times and not wanting to be able to drink my coffee whilst navigating one of gods greatest A roads at 120kleptons.

I should declare at this point that I have a Lotus cupholder in my Elise.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Nathan Pitman

[C8RKH]

8 minutes ago, Nathan Pitman said:

I should declare at this point that I have a Lotus cupholder in my Elise.

Oh. Your dead to me!  😂🤣🏸

1 hour ago, Bravo73 said:

Lotus only managed to sell 1,600 cars last year. In the entire world. 

The market has spoken, unfortunately. 

No. That was just crap marketing. 

[au-yt]

15 hours ago, Bravo73 said:

Lotus only managed to sell 1,600 cars last year. In the entire world. 

The market has spoken, unfortunately. 

Apparently that’s up 50% in some markets

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, au-yt said:

Apparently that’s up 50% in some markets

And best ever numbers. So maybe the market is waking up!  Stats, always a number of ways to make them support your argument!

The biggest thing for me is that EVERYONE on here practically comments, especially with their Evora, that the first response they get from non Lotus owners is along the lines of "wow, i never knew Lotus made a car like that". So again, you can only sell in a market that either knows about you or sees you. Jonny's post was a bit like a market stall owner in Leeds complaining that he had never sold anything in Bradford, a place he had never been too. i suspect it was a tongue in cheek response though.

[Bravo73]

Nope, not tongue in cheek at all. Those numbers demonstrate that the market for lightweight, 2 seater, track focused sports cars is very, very limited. Even worldwide. Even with a decent marketing budget. (Look at how many cars McLaren sold last year).

As has already been discussed ad finitum in this thread already, Porsche came to this conclusion in the 1990s. Hence the Cayenne and diesels. And then untold profits (which help to subsidise the various GT2/3/4s). 

The market has spoken. High power GT cars and SUVs with plenty of gizmos and cupholders is the future. If we’re lucky, there will still be a place for an Elise. But it just won’t be the core business. 

[Neal H]

It will depend on whether Geely want to follow the McLaren model (high-end supercars) or the Porsche model (mass-produced machines to subsidise medium-end sports cars). One things for sure, they won't want to follow the traditional Lotus model! Is there a third way?

[Black Forest Power]

Completely I agree with you @C8RKH , our consumer preferences and criticism about modern cars are 100% congruent. However, I see the problem with old farts like you and me (sorry for taking you into kin liability) since not only the car models, we as a market are aging.

If I were boss with Porsche twenty years ago I would have fired that guy and sent him to psychological treatment coming up with the idea to build that Cayenne SUV – see, I am the one who may need such a treatment.

I think the up-to-date way is not ours but paved well with all your above mentioned ‘goodies’ we dislike. McLaren is a good example of successful niche development in quite a short while to be contemporary and desired.
Last year during a track day there was a father with his twenty years old son, both driving around in an Elise and an Evora. The young chap likes Lotus a lot and knows what they are about but when I asked him what he would like to have differently he mentioned all this contemporary electric, touchy, comfort orchestra – not mine but well, I guess it’s time.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Black Forest Power

[electro_boy]

1 hour ago, Neal H said:

Is there a third way?

The Koenigsegg way with that crazy £1M+ hyper car that is rumoured?

I'm of a similar view to Andy.  I love Lotus for what they represent today, light weight, simple machines with minimum luxury features so the driving pleasure is not diluted.  But at the same time I understand we are in the minority and this does not appeal to the mass market.  I think it's inevitable the Geely will push towards the higher end and add in higher levels of luxury.  I just hope they follow the McLaren model rather than the Porsche model.  I'd even prefer the old school Lambo model of making a flawed car but with loads of character. 

What ever happens it would be great if they would hold onto just one model that is similar to Elise/Exige.

[NedaSay]

1 hour ago, Neal H said:

It will depend on whether Geely want to follow the McLaren model (high-end supercars) or the Porsche model (mass-produced machines to subsidise medium-end sports cars). One things for sure, they won't want to follow the traditional Lotus model! Is there a third way?

Well that's the thing isn't it ... Geely have said many times they were extremely ambitious and wanted Lotus to compete with Porsche ( so mass produced machine to subside the sports cars) and Ferrari (high end supercars) all the while being big on EV (overall group strategy). That leaves a lot of room but makes thing a little harder to read. Hopefully we get to keep one or two cars at accessible price point. Let's say below 50K USD.  I believe that by leveraging everything entry level that they have in the group, it is possible for them to generate a profit even at that price point.  

As for the electronics and cupholders, they are coming, the electronics if only for the sake of packaging reasons and scales, the cupholders because... I like my cupholder in my SUV when I drive from Calgary to Revelstoke to go skiing goddamnit!  It's cold out there. I need my tea to keep me warm in the winter. I need my seat warmer to keep my bum from getting numb, and I really need my HVAC/AC to work to keep my windshield and windows from fogging the F...up. Arguably a sport car is not the best car to go that route comes winter... But the Rogers pass in the summer is actually a lot of fun.   

 

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Bravo73 said:

Nope, not tongue in cheek at all. Those numbers demonstrate that the market for lightweight, 2 seater, track focused sports cars is very, very limited. Even worldwide. Even with a decent marketing budget. (Look at how many cars McLaren sold last year).

As has already been discussed ad finitum in this thread already, Porsche came to this conclusion in the 1990s. Hence the Cayenne and diesels. And then untold profits (which help to subsidise the various GT2/3/4s). 

The market has spoken. High power GT cars and SUVs with plenty of gizmos and cupholders is the future. If we’re lucky, there will still be a place for an Elise. But it just won’t be the core business. 

But your assuming that Lotus will want to go all out to just chase volume.  I have no problem with Lotus having an SUV really (but stick to the DNA and it will be better than anyone elses anyway) and no problem with them having a DB11/Bentley GT type of rival, but again, stick to the heritage principles and it will be better than the rest!

However, I disagree that the market for real driver focused cars has gone away. You could argue it has gone upmarket (Ferrari had a record year and their V12 engined cars were the sales leaders). Porsche sells enough of the GTx cars (911. Cayman) to make it worth their while and yes they subsidise that output in some way through the SUV's, but the SUV's also subsidise their considerable racing activities which bring the cachet to the brand and around it goes. What they have done is clever in that they have leveraged their heritage, developed more mass appeal cars, to then allow them to continue the heritage.

For whatever reason Lotus has not been able to do this (well, funds and aspiration of its owners really). Lotus will never sell 200k cars a year like Porsche. Well not in my lifetime anyway i would suggest.  it could get to 50k, or even 75k cars I believe and that would be a great portfolio business for Geely especially if they build on the DNA and the heritage - just like porsche has done.

Porsche was lucky, even though their sports car business was dying they were still one of the most raced car brands. So they had plenty of media coverage and they kept plugging on refining the core product whilst they rescued themselves. it took a leap of faith but they did not mess with really the core values of the company or the DNA.  The worry for me is that if Lotus does (I don;t actually think Geely are that stupid) then all you are left with is a "me too" brand. At that point what would you choose:

A Nissan GTR/Toyota Supra/Mazda MX5/Lexus XF/Audi R8/TTRS whatever clone with a Lotus badge (because what would be any different or special about the Lotus?) or would you consider going upmarket to a used Macca, Huracan, 458/488 or  new Vantage?

I get lotus needs to move, but I do feel if, as some seem to want to happen, it just becomes another me too, same old same old product in a different body remanufacturer then would we, the current owners, still choose to buy and run a new Lotus? All I am saying is that i would probably be just as likely to go elsewhere, and it pains me to say it, but that would probably be to a Porsche GTx car.  If you actually look at the Bahar model range, and if that came to market with Geely/Volvo powertrains, i'd be tempted.  But not if that also meant they weighed 250 - 600kgs more than the current cars even though they had 400 - 600bhp to shift it.  I'd go for a lightweight spec'd Porsche GT or the used Macca MP4/570 as i do actually think they would then be the better drivers cars with a stronger ownership proposition at that point.

I do feel that with the Evora especially, Lotus is just about there and with volume it could have knocked out the GT430's at around £100k list (what a car for the price against the competition), with the GT410 at around £80k (again, what a car for the price). But without volume they are about £20k over what the market will pay IF THE MARKET KNEW THEY EXISTED which it largely doesn't.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

The curious thing about Porsche's racing heritage is the lack of F1 success. One solitary GP win (France 1962, when Ferrari were absent and all their faster rivals broke down). I know they have developed engines for other teams, but no-one remembers that.

Clearly they have a long and illustrious record in endurance sports car racing, but how many of today's Porsche customers really follow that? Image outguns heritage nowadays.

[C8RKH]

Porsche have a huge racing following through the various Porsche CUP national and international series and the LeMans/WEC series that has generated huge publicity for them. As iconic as the Lotus cars and their liveries are, there cannot be many people over the age of 20 who do not remember or who have not seen a Rothmans for Martini liveried Porsche 911 streaking around a track on a poster or in other advertising mediums.

You're quite right re F1 victories, Lotus absolutely kills Porsche in that comparison, but, and it is a huge but, they have generated a huge following as a "clubman's" racing brand that is much stronger and visible than Lotus who are best remembered for F1 with the last victory in 1987 at Detroit I believe. That was 31 years ago!  The Enstone Lotus Team did not exactly do the brand any favours really and if anything took prestige away with its performances.

How many Porsches have entered races in the last 31 years? Compared to how many Lotus cars? No wonder we here comments like "Lotus, are they still going" and "wow, i did not think they made cars like that" as marketing as practically been nil, the brand has survived on 20 or 30 year heritage and awareness only.

I do passionately  believe there is a market out there for Lotus' kind of cars - fairly lightweight, well engineered, reliable (yes, they really are these days), analog and a real shock to the senses in a good way (handling, feel noise etc.). The problem is they have just not been visible enough at all.

interesting article on the MX5 i read yesterday, apparently very few of them are leased with the majority being bought as they are viewed as second cars/toys and apparently buyers prefer to buy these cars than lease them as they want to "own" them. I really am hoping that with Geely's financial muscle and aspiration Lotus can really press on.  Volvo sold c660k cars in 2019 worldwide I believe.  Jaguar around c440k. These are "small" brands in reality. Ferrari sold c9k-9.5k cars, Aston Martin between c5.5k and 6k, and Lamborghini 4.4k to 5k cars.  So given this, and the lack of visibility, and branding, and marketing for Lotus to sell 2k cars was a bloody fantastic achievement.  There are buyers out there, but they need to understand the brand, the range, the capability and the DNA and then i do believe they will buy.

A 400/GT410/GT430 is a good match for a Cayman/911 and it is remarkable Lotus can compete on a similar (maybe slightly more expensive) price basis given the resources and reserves of the competition. I still say it does not need a 500 or 600bhp near 2 tonne leather clad gismo'ed out luxo barge. It just needs to make the incremental gains, get the message out and watch people come....  Bahars models will help though as to be honest, they did look good to me......  Lotus is the right way, it's just that not enough people know it yet.

There has been a thread on the Lotus Evora facebook page recently, with people declaring how old they were when they got their first Evora. it staggered me the number of people who responded at 21 (the youngest), to 25.  So there is hope.

[Dan E]

@C8RKH all you are trying to say is keep the bloody DNA and fooking hurrah to that. I could not agree more 

[au-yt]

Another area lotus do well at present is cost of ownership. This was a major consideration for me when I bought my 400 as against a host of Italian secondhand cars. For the non lease market, this I believe is rather important.

The use of generic type engines helps a lot the only real drawback is they are designed for life not so much tweekability. What lotus need is a reverse engineered power plants in the way McLaren did, cleaver, not so the gearbox, Queue Quafe. 

Volvo have the experience to make some great engines, look what was achieved with the original Koenigsegg.

My wish is Engine designed with the collaboration with Volvo and Cosworth or even Koenigsegg, An engine that has the production flex ability to be in a Hi Torque engine for say a Lotusified XC40 (I for one, want one to replace my XC60 in 5 years) and High output for the next Elise.

[USAndretti42]

I think the Elise has a reputation for asking too much of its owners.  It could be easier to get in and out of, have a good heating/ventilation system and still be a lightweight, focused sportscar.  It was, don't forget, a replacement for the 7.

I've said before, what we need is a replacement for the original Elan.  The recent Europa went some way towards that but was too close to the Elise to truly carry it off.  I think a new car with the attributes of the old Elan updated to meet current legislation and quality and reliability expectations would vbe very popular.

Another advantage Lotus have is their ability to introduce new cars for little investment so they don't need to sell tens of thousands to make them viable.  So they don't need huge sales on every model to make a profit.

[NedaSay]

13 hours ago, C8RKH said:

But your assuming that Lotus will want to go all out to just chase volume.  I have no problem with Lotus having an SUV really (but stick to the DNA and it will be better than anyone elses anyway) and no problem with them having a DB11/Bentley GT type of rival, but again, stick to the heritage principles and it will be better than the rest!

However, I disagree that the market for real driver focused cars has gone away. You could argue it has gone upmarket (Ferrari had a record year and their V12 engined cars were the sales leaders). Porsche sells enough of the GTx cars (911. Cayman) to make it worth their while and yes they subsidise that output in some way through the SUV's, but the SUV's also subsidise their considerable racing activities which bring the cachet to the brand and around it goes. What they have done is clever in that they have leveraged their heritage, developed more mass appeal cars, to then allow them to continue the heritage.

For whatever reason Lotus has not been able to do this (well, funds and aspiration of its owners really). Lotus will never sell 200k cars a year like Porsche. Well not in my lifetime anyway i would suggest.  it could get to 50k, or even 75k cars I believe and that would be a great portfolio business for Geely especially if they build on the DNA and the heritage - just like porsche has done.

Porsche was lucky, even though their sports car business was dying they were still one of the most raced car brands. So they had plenty of media coverage and they kept plugging on refining the core product whilst they rescued themselves. it took a leap of faith but they did not mess with really the core values of the company or the DNA.  The worry for me is that if Lotus does (I don;t actually think Geely are that stupid) then all you are left with is a "me too" brand. At that point what would you choose:

A Nissan GTR/Toyota Supra/Mazda MX5/Lexus XF/Audi R8/TTRS whatever clone with a Lotus badge (because what would be any different or special about the Lotus?) or would you consider going upmarket to a used Macca, Huracan, 458/488 or  new Vantage?

I get lotus needs to move, but I do feel if, as some seem to want to happen, it just becomes another me too, same old same old product in a different body remanufacturer then would we, the current owners, still choose to buy and run a new Lotus? All I am saying is that i would probably be just as likely to go elsewhere, and it pains me to say it, but that would probably be to a Porsche GTx car.  If you actually look at the Bahar model range, and if that came to market with Geely/Volvo powertrains, i'd be tempted.  But not if that also meant they weighed 250 - 600kgs more than the current cars even though they had 400 - 600bhp to shift it.  I'd go for a lightweight spec'd Porsche GT or the used Macca MP4/570 as i do actually think they would then be the better drivers cars with a stronger ownership proposition at that point.

I do feel that with the Evora especially, Lotus is just about there and with volume it could have knocked out the GT430's at around £100k list (what a car for the price against the competition), with the GT410 at around £80k (again, what a car for the price). But without volume they are about £20k over what the market will pay IF THE MARKET KNEW THEY EXISTED which it largely doesn't.

Agreed agreed and agreed again.

I think a good first step for Lotus would be to reach the 15/20k vehicle produced. I think a SUV with Lotus DNA and with proper support (marketing, dealer network, sales andaftersales) can get Lotus to that first milestone with the current line up of sports cars properly updated.

They should remain light, they should remain about the driver's enjoyment, but I feel that with Volvo and Geely assistance they need not remaining as spartan. I said it and will say it again with a proper electrical loom, access to the Volvo parts bin, proper integration and the fit and finish that Lotus has put on display under JMG, there's no doubt in my mind  that they can pull some seriously compelling products at very competitive price point.  These updates need not put current Lotus and prospective owners out of contention. I do hope Geely saw this. I do think the decision to go SUV first is an indicator of that. if it comes to the market and is the size of an XC60 then it would be difficult for it to sell for over 150k cause it will compare to the Maccan. Lotus/Geely do know they can undercut that vehicle on value and sportiveness.

Back in 2010, I liked the conceptual take of DB - don't kill me yet - on what could be an Elise successor. It was still below 1000kg, but able to cater for a lot more people in terms of ease of use. Daily driveability they call it, as of now the Elise is a bit too much of a third car, a pure week end car. Add just a little bit to it (shoulder room, head room, creature comfort) and you have a second car to complement the family SUV nicely that can be used a lot more often.  It can remain a manual and they can now provide the car with a dual clutch gearbox or the most advanced ICE.  They just have the means to do the car they always wanted the Elise to be. Same with the Evora it could become what they always wanted it to be even if the GT430 is pretty close to it in my opinion... But on the marketplace it cannot be helped it needs a few more things and a lot more support to exist and I think thag very soon the car and the brand will be where it needs to be.