Future of Lotus

[Nathan Pitman]

Thanks for the in depth reply @NedaSay, a couple of weeks you say?

[NedaSay]

1 hour ago, Nathan Pitman said:

Thanks for the in depth reply @NedaSay, a couple of weeks you say?

Nein, nein, nein... Not a couple of weeks, certainly not, but each week that passes is getting us closer to the reveal, patience is still a virtue. 

[The Pits]

I wish I shared Nico's optimism but reluctantly share your view Nathan. The focus appears to have changed at Lotus. Many will say that's essential for them to achieve higher volume. But the focus and philosophy at Lotus was what made their cars special. Misunderstood by many but adored by a few. True pioneers don't follow the herd and are often unappreciated at the time. Often unsuccessful too. Human beings are naturally conservative resistant to change. To appeal to a broader market beyond Lotus will have to abandon much of what makes the current cars so special. I believe this is a fundamental mistake based on false assumptions. But car makers don't seem to have any imagination beyond copying what is successful elsewhere, when it comes to sports cars this usually means copy Porsche. SUVs plus unisex, conservatively styled all-rounders. Detune the cars on launch so you can add 10bhp with every new update. Much like the music industry you have clone after clone appearing until you have the great sea of samey blandness until someone comes along who changes the game. Or someone gets more widely recognized for having changed the game years ago.

To be 'misunderstood by many but adored by a few' is a marketing problem. As is the whole thing about people not even knowing what an Evora is. Lotus have limped on with a tiny marketing budget for many years. Imagine what the same cars could achieve with some smart, engaging, truthful, inspiring marketing behind them? The false assumption is that the current Lotus range do not sell in large numbers because they are not good enough cars. Or not what 'the market wants'. It's assumed that if you make a Cayman clone more people will want it because more people buy Caymans. As in, Porsche got it right, Lotus got it wrong. For a brief period in the 1990's TVRs outsold Porsches in the UK. It suddenly became deeply uncool to be seen driving a Porsche around the City. They went the way of the filofax. TVR didn't sell more cars by building a 'better' car or one that was more like Porsche. They benefitted by maintaining what made them different. Lotus could build a car twice as good as a Cayman and it still wouldn't sell at this moment in time. I happen to think the Elise is more than twice as involving to drive already. Until Lotus make the badge desireable to those beyond the hardcore car enthusiast they won't sell many SUVs either. However good. Again, principally a marketing problem. Lotus need to be using this time to lay the foundations of what is to come. Whether deserved or not Lotus have a reputation that needs to be addressed. They are unfairly thought of as poorly built, unreliable, fragile, plastic track toys. It's up to the marketing department to prove people wrong about this. Evija, if successful, should help elevate the brand but so much more needs to be done that will have a more direct effect on public perceptions. As said before I'd like to see regular updates from the factory, press releases, youtube videos, digital and print ads, showing the steps Lotus are taking to radically improve the quality of their cars. Dany Bahar hired an ex Porsche quality control manager. He didn't do anything as far as I remember but it was the right sort of statement to send out there. Imagine a series of youtube videos that detail the changes this new german quality control manager is bringing in. Vital stuff if Lotus is to be taken seriously as a volume sports car maker. Lotus can do a lot to counter the reputation for being unreliable by endurance racing, driving an Evora around the world, increasing the factory warranty, keeping driving an Evora, a 911 and an F-Type until one of them breaks, celebrate high mileage customer cars, start a high mileage league table, reward customers who use their cars. Make something of this 'For The Drivers' thing.

Instead we neither see nor hear anything about the current cars or what is going on at Hethel beyond the very occasional Evija video. Does anyone outside Guangzhou care about the Guangzhou motor show? I don't believe that's enough. Nor will launching a Cayman inspired car or SUV on its own. Maserati and Alfa Romeo have proven that just building an SUV will not guarantee a sales stampede by itself.

 

[jep]

All fascinating thoughts...…….Lotus Cars cannot survive long-term making less than 2,000 cars per annum, so something has to change. Tricky to have extensive marketing with that low volume, so perhaps the only avenue is to increase sales (which means new product). 

I am open-minded on the process, as my fear is the current situation is not sustainable; even given Lotus Cars legendary ability to survive despite everything.

I hear the cars will be softer, genuine touring cars. In time, I am sure these can be stripped out to appeal to those who currently buy Evora 410/430, if not Exige fans. First of all though, Lotus have to sell these touring cars to a wider audience; I have no idea if they can but I hope they do.

Justin

[The Pits]

From volume car maker's point of view selling 2000 cars is utter failure. So the tendency is to write off the current Lotus range, chuck them all in the bin and start again, copying other cars that sell in greater numbers. From my point of view selling 2000 Lotus cars is a minor miracle with the resources they have and given the well resourced competition they face. It's proof for me that there is an interest in something different. Not everyone wants bigger, heavier, easier, tech acronym filled sports cars. I don't believe that anyone wants a Norfolk built Cayman with the current association for Norfolk build quality. So just making a Lotus easier to get in and out of won't change a great deal on its own. The Evora is already easier to get in and out of but the Exige outsells it. Evora was also the closest thing yet to a Norfolk built Porsche 911, again didn't help sales much. Absolutely adore my Evora of course and no fan of the 911 but I think there was an element of building the car they thought they should make more than the car they really wanted to build. It never got close to the ambition of 5000 cars a year whereas the uncompromising Exige has sold better than expectations. After all, there's nothing else like it.

Totally accept that things have to change but I think a bit more understanding and appreciation is needed of the strengths and stand out qualities of the current cars. I personally believe that Lotus could be a success without resorting to SUVs and would rather Lotus took inspiration from McLaren than Porsche. There's a lot that needs to be preserved, built on and carried forward into the future. All hope is on the brilliant Lotus lifers that are still there, finding a way to do it. If all we get is empty soundbites about 'Lotus DNA' in an SUV that would be tragic. They need to be investing in the brand now if an SUV is going to work further down the line. 

[jep]

I think the Evora is proof that however good the car is, the current way Lotus operate has a sales ceiling. The Evora is in my eyes totally brilliant. The vision (I think of Mike Kimberley) to ensure it was +2 was critical; to make a pretty (very pretty) mid-engine 2+2 was frankly genius and full credit to Russell Carr and his team. I was stunned when I first saw and drove an Evora in 2010. 

It genuinely pains me that Evora has not been a sales success. It should walk out of the showroom, as the original Elise did. It had enough publicity early on to do so (perhaps 2009/10 credit-crunch launch killed it). Price may be the issue but Lotus cannot buy the materials cheaply enough to change that. Geely we assume will assist on this come the next generation of cars and hopefully the price will be acceptable to buyers.

McLaren I consider a different level to Lotus and I am not convinced Lotus can ape that business model. The McLaren 'brand' sells the cars on its own (the F1 road car casts a long shadow, let alone the racing heritage that continues); the business appears to have a long-term plan and funding to implement that plan; and the cars drive in a very special manner - whisper it, like a Lotus but even better (for road use, I cannot comment on track entertainment). 12c/650S/720 suspension is a system of beauty and the steering is a notch up from Evora. The cars shrink around you becoming almost EIise-like, which sounds nonsense but I really do feel like I am in small sports car when I press on in a McLaren. This does not mean Lotus could not do this given the money but McLaren already do this and make 4,500 cars per annum (which they presently struggle to sell), so why do the same? Of course, many ex-Lotus chaps work at McLaren and perhaps more will follow. Or go back!

I remember the M100 Elan debut. A brilliant car but too expensive against the MX-5, so it failed. Price really was the killer on that car. The Elise now is killed by price, I think the cheapest new one is touching £40K. I am convinced the Evora is killed on price. Lotus has to get the unit cost down and I hope Geely understand that. If they think they can sell a Lotus badged sports car (or SUV) for Merc/Porsche price-point, I fear they will be in for a wallet-draining decade.

Justin

 

 

[jep]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

Lotus can do a lot to counter the reputation for being unreliable by endurance racing, driving an Evora around the world, increasing the factory warranty, keeping driving an Evora, a 911 and an F-Type until one of them breaks, celebrate high mileage customer cars, start a high mileage league table, reward customers who use their cars. Make something of this 'For The Drivers' thing.

I like this idea. 

Justin

[Nathan Pitman]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

Lotus can do a lot to counter the reputation for being unreliable by endurance racing, driving an Evora around the world, increasing the factory warranty, keeping driving an Evora, a 911 and an F-Type until one of them breaks, celebrate high mileage customer cars, start a high mileage league table, reward customers who use their cars. Make something of this 'For The Drivers' thing.

Yup, I love this too. What we need is a direct line from TLF to Lotus Cars... @Bibs?

[The Pits]

Commanding a higher price is impossible without a strong brand. This is how Porsche can stick their badge on a VW SUV and charge 30% more. How this hasn't irreparably tarnished their brand as a sports car maker is another story but they didn't build their brand making SUVs. They built it with fast, durable sports and racing cars.

I don't think Lotus should copy McLaren's business model but I'd rather they took inspiration from it and stayed committed to sports cars, offering something more like a McLaren at a lower price point (£50k-£150k). That said, I see no reason why Lotus shouldn't compete with McLaren further down the track. The Evija if successful will sit above anything McLaren makes currently. McLaren and Alpine seem to be doing well out of taking inspiration from Lotus. Alpine A110 is outselling Cayman currently. I just want Lotus themselves to go forward with some confidence about their values and principles which are as valid and compelling now as they ever were. So much they could and should be doing long before the first new model comes out.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I thought talk of the SUV had been shelved some time ago?

edit: I think I might have dreamt that. Sorry for getting your hopes up.

Edited November 27, 2019 by LotusLeftLotusRight
Idiot

[The Pits]

Glimmer of hope to be found here. Best thing I've seen on Evija to date.

 

[stephenwhyte]

Brilliant video - keep positive guys.......until we know everything about what Lotus’ plans are......we know nothing👍

[ramjet]

I wonder if they'll ever put the blinker and wiper stalks so that the blinker stalk is on the right hand side of the steering wheel?  

[The Pits]

For £2m you can have the stalks where ever the hell you want them!

[vd9]

9 hours ago, jep said:

If they think they can sell a Lotus badged sports car (or SUV) for Merc/Porsche price-point, I fear they will be in for a wallet-draining decade.

Overall a very clear and adequate post as all the others from @jep here - I can't agree more with the thinking and logic

7 hours ago, The Pits said:

This is how Porsche can stick their badge on a VW SUV and charge 30% more.

Makes no sense whatsoever (as much as countless number of other empty/pathetic statements in this thread by @The Pits). Not that I think either of a Porsche SUV's as a "hand built in", but one would struggle to find much in common in between those and VW. You may want to try those and see for yourself. 

[The Pits]

First flat earthers, then climate change deniers and now VW platform sharing deniers! Unusual thing to take offence at though.

I was going to ask what so bad about using VW group parts but I'd much rather we return to discussing the topic respectfully.

I'd be interested to hear your views about what Lotus should and shouldn't do with their future cars. What future Lotus would make you to trade in your Exige in 18 months time?

[vd9]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

what so bad about using VW group parts

This is a more sensible of a statement, although platform sharing and badge engineering are a bit of distant from each other concepts. Hopefully we all understand this. 

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

What future Lotus would make you to trade in your Exige in 18 months time?

This really is a fair and challenging question. I bought an Exige with pretty much a freedom to buy any car up to £100k with really no limitations (only one being able to fit in a small carry on suitcase while driving about 100mi one way). I've been sold on the nature of direct connection to the road (I struggle to drive "fully normal" cars) with decent amount of performance. I'm still very happy with these. Only let down's were multiple unexplainable and unjustifiable quality faults and variable dealers network quality when it comes to service.

I don't think I'm going to change the car in 18 months from now, but I may consider buying one more (new). At the moment the next best most immediate candidate would probably be a baby McLaren in specification to my liking (nothing ridiculous, just the way I'd want it to be), while I'm also keen to see what C8 Corvette (and hopefully soon to be announced Z06) is going to be like; I'd also try to get a feel for R8 V10 and maybe (but less  likely) GT-R or AMG GT. So then for Lotus to really be in the list, it would need to either be a major step up from (but same unique type of) my Sport 350 (manufacturing quality at the level of an average Porsche, 30-50% more power and preserved steering/feeling/weight of a car), or a competitive car with big character (read engine and design) and more GT feel, while also more special driving feel than the alternarives. Both are rather tough things to achieve, admittably.

Edited November 28, 2019 by vd9

[ChrisJ]

Anyone else notice it doesn't have the new badge on it.

[Techyd]

On 27/11/2019 at 02:14, NedaSay said:

it may actually be quite light, a shortened Evora with 4 cyl would assuredly be below 1200kg

That's an interesting idea - you've only got to look at the Alpine to see how successful that could be, and potentially it might allow its price point to remain low enough. for the likes of me!  In factm if I were to replace the Evora, the only candidate that comes to mind as a serious proposition is the Alpine A110 (though I am as yet to drive one)

22 hours ago, The Pits said:

Lotus can do a lot to counter the reputation for being unreliable by endurance racing, driving an Evora around the world, increasing the factory warranty, keeping driving an Evora, a 911 and an F-Type until one of them breaks, celebrate high mileage customer cars, start a high mileage league table, reward customers who use their cars. Make something of this 'For The Drivers' thing

This is a great idea BTW!  There are countless venues around the world that could hosts a travelling roadshow.
 

For the wealthier end of the market, the GT4 championship is gaining more and more popularity - is the Evora GT4 still produced / available??

[Bravo73]

1 hour ago, Techyd said:

For the wealthier end of the market, the GT4 championship is gaining more and more popularity - is the Evora GT4 still produced / available??

 

[Simon Orrell]

3 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

Anyone else notice it doesn't have the new badge on it.

The new badge is just for communication emails, letter heads, advertising etc, the cars will retain the previous badge

[C8RKH]

13 hours ago, vd9 said:

but one would struggle to find much in common in between those and VW

I may be mistaken, but I think you will find that VAG have one shared platform for their SUVs across all brands. The platform is constructed in Slovakia, but final car production varies (Slovakia for Skoda, Leipzig for Porsche etc.). Again, iirc it is designated VAG Group E Type 120.  So pretty hard to deny the core DNA of the chassis in Porsche SUVs as being VAG.

In 2017 it was announced that after intense internal competition in VAG that Porsche and Audi would collaborate on future shared vehicle platforms, modules and components.

This does indeed suggest you will find a lot in common (like the Aston Martin key under Ford ownership that when you took the leather off was branded VW) between the two and that both brand/badge and engineering management is going on.

Next you'll be telling us that the switchgear in the Lamborgini was not Audi, nor the ICE etc.

A point of fact to note though is that Porsche were not sharing their engines. However this will change though with new electrified model as VAG have no confirmed a shared platform across all brands.

I see a similar thing happening with Lotus but deeper - i.e. shared platforms, modules AND engines across the Geely holdings. I even think some tech from the Evija will find its way into Volvo and other SUV's, especially the ability to power 4 wheels from four individual electric engines to do wheel vectoring for turning and drive.

 

 

 

[jep]

20 hours ago, The Pits said:

The Evija if successful will sit above anything McLaren makes currently

Perhaps the Lotus name ('brand') is unable to penetrate the high net worth stratosphere required to make proper money from sports and hyper cars. Here is a thought (that will never happen but here goes...….): Geely buy Williams Engineering/F1 team and the new generation of Lotus (the Evija powertrain technology is Williams designed) are badged 'Williams'.  Norfolk base becomes part of Williams, the road cars sell 'cos folk will buy a Williams which has top pedigree history (yes, I know current Formula One team is woeful but if they had money.....).

Geely announce Lotus Cars is finished as a brand and run down production...…...everyone rushes out to buy the existing stock.

The Lotus name could perhaps return when a light-weight entry level sports car reappears.  

Justin

[Arregueti]

I normally agree with your posts, Justin, but that one made me shake and sweat... I am on the lookout for some anti-anxiety pills.

[vd9]

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

This does indeed suggest you will find a lot in common (like the Aston Martin key under Ford ownership that when you took the leather off was branded VW) between the two and that both brand/badge and engineering management is going on.

Next you'll be telling us that the switchgear in the Lamborgini was not Audi, nor the ICE etc.

Yeah, they are all rubbish those Porsche and Lamborghini. Same as Skoda, just with souped up engines.