2bular, is it a crappy exhaust?

[C8RKH]

That was a copy paste from his own website. A great response @Gekko the great but despite the length of it you avoided Jim's main argument which was the damage was caused by a high speed spin with lateral loads.

The point he makes about the engine mounts is to support his case re how they behave in a high speed spin to generate the forces to do the damage.

As an impartial observer that's how I read it anyway.

[Gekko the great]

15 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

That was a copy paste from his own website. A great response @Gekko the great but despite the length of it you avoided Jim's main argument which was the damage was caused by a high speed spin with lateral loads.

The point he makes about the engine mounts is to support his case re how they behave in a high speed spin to generate the forces to do the damage.

As an impartial observer that's how I read it anyway.

I'm sorry Andy, 

Why did you say they I avoided Jim's main argument?

...you say that the damage is always caused by excessive engine movement , the hanger rod welded to the end plate transmits the stresses caused by engine -movement and the end-plate twists and breaks. ( his assertion )

You wonder why Lotus use such soft engine/transmission mounts, so if you know that why you manufacture such exhausts ??? ( I think I didn't skip anything , did I ? ) 

[C8RKH]

It seems you're having trouble reading the right bit. This bit.

but it is actually a pertinent example of the damage that a high-speed spin can do to your exhaust. Of course, Luca didn't mention that bit - and I don't expect any of the TLF massive to have

 

 

It is after that he talks about the mounts so what he is basically saying, right or wrong as O have no clue either way, is that the damage was caused by a high speed spin. I am no expert, just reading the detail that is being posted by various parties.

[F1_Chris]

Just my two cents, but I imagine consistant change in direction would cause more load than a spin out in the same direction.

[GFWilliams]

26 minutes ago, F1_Chris said:

Just my two cents, but I imagine consistant change in direction would cause more load than a spin out in the same direction.

You've clearly not been in a violent high speed spin then.  I haven't had a violent spin in my Exige, but did in my VX220 where it snapped hard on me at 80+ mph and sent me off doing a 720 (maybe more). The loads were huge and I needed to replace the engine mounts after.  If this happened in an Exige, with a heavier engine, any exhaust would stand a great chance of breaking, no matter what it's made out of.  After such a spin, the car should be properly checked over, not driven hard again on track immediately after IMO.

[andyj007]

hmmn an interesting read, shocked that a company would put a response to a forum post like that  on their own website.. just feels wrong. there is ways of putting across or defending a product , personal insults are a step too far imo no matter what the provocation  

it also basically reads to me.. take your exhaust on track and it will fail..  and i wont offer any support...   i guess the oem ones fail then too?

 

 

[RedViper]

I personally think this is where message forums aren’t the right place for such discussions. Person A is hacked off and thinks person B is to blame. Person B wants to defend their position / business. 

I’ve known Jim a good few years and I’d still take his product over any other despite this thread. I have seen and felt the exhausts with my own eyes and hands and the build quality is second to none. I think the majority of people have had the same experience. 

The fact that he gave you a track system for nothing after no doubt telling you in first instance not to use a valved system on track (why didn’t you go silenced decat if you wanted to quieten it down) says a lot to me. 

I don’t like getting involved in other people’s disputes but owning a lotus and being on these forums is a community and I personally don’t agree with what your saying. 

[C8RKH]

I agree with you @RedViper but it seems that one of the uglier sides or consequences of social media is that people believe they can use it (abuse it?) to either score points against or coerce a different response from, others.

I have mentioned it earlier but I believe we have not had all the facts leading up to the situation, we've had one side putting their spin (sic) on it.

As for Jim's website rant. I personally would prefer it if he refrained from such postings. However, his product has been strongly attacked and he is trying to defend his workmanship and product from that attack. Understandable, if not the way I would do it.

I had a problem with my 410Sport, rather than bleating on here about how crap the product was I worked with my dealer and Lotus and got it sorted to my 100% satisfaction, quietly. I have a current issue with a well known supplier re parts that were ordered in September, delivered as crap quality in December and still not with me now in almost March.  I'm working quietly with said supplier and am confident the outcome will be good.

In both instances I suppose I could have felt justified posting new threads on here saying "xxxxx, is it a crappy xxxxx".  It might have made me feel better for 5 minutes, not sure it would have really helped me get the best outcome though.

 

So here's how I read the facts presented.

1. Jim I want a track exhaust

2. Don't go valved my boy

3. No, I know better I want valved

4. Jim. My valved exhaust is knackered after using it on track

5. Here, have a non valved track exhaust then, take it for a spin

6. I took you literally Jim, had a very high speed spin and off. You're exhaust is crappy because it split and I'm going to tell everyone, but not mention the spin.

7. @#£&@#£& £#@&£## off!

8. Wow. You heart my feelings Jim saying that, how rude

Have I missed anything? Just my reading of the thread to date, apologies if I have got it wrong and my attempt at humour or is it irony, oh whatever, is miss placed. 🤣😂🤣😂

[vd9]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

As for Jim's website rant. I personally would prefer it if he refrained from such postings. However, his product has been strongly attacked and he is trying to defend his workmanship and product from that attack. Understandable, if not the way I would do it.

You can justify many things in this way - your own choice of what to accept as normal and understandable

 

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

I had a problem with my 410Sport, rather than bleating on here about how crap the product was I worked with my dealer and Lotus and got it sorted to my 100% satisfaction, quietly. I have a current issue with a well known supplier re parts that were ordered in September, delivered as crap quality in December and still not with me now in almost March.  I'm working quietly with said supplier and am confident the outcome will be good.

Would it not make sense to seek a reasonable way to reduce probability of you or other people having to "work quietly with the supplier" and instead just do what could/should be expected - "pay money -> receive product as expected"?

 

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Have I missed anything? Just my reading of the thread to date, apologies if I have got it wrong and my attempt at humour or is it irony, oh whatever, is miss placed. 🤣😂🤣😂

And few posts ago you said about being impartial. Now you put forward little pantomime clearly indicating who is in the right and who is in the wrong. Very RT style I must say

Edited February 26, 2019 by vd9

[C8RKH]

@vd9 I've obviously upset you for which i apologise but I'm not really sure what your going on about to be honest.

Re your first point - so we agree then, it's our own choice - but remember, Jim was responding to an attack on him/his product on here - he did not instigate that.

Re your second point - I have no idea what this point is trying to say.  To clarify my point - "My choice is not to rant about poor service on a forum/social media whilst I am trying to resolve an issue". If others want to then as per the first point, that is their choice, but then don't get arsey about it when the person you are ranting about responds!  FFS, that's just infantile.

Re point three - get a sense of humour - I was, as can clearly be seen by the tone and smileys and the advanced apology having a laugh whilst making an important point that you have missed and I will spell out to you - We have not been presented by either side with the full facts so we should not judge whether one side is correct or the other.  The spin was missed off and has been ignored by the OP, or did Jim just make it up?  Being impartial means you look at what has been presented in total and make a decision based on that, not on one side or the other, as that is taking sides - i.e. the opposite of impartial.  I suspect there is a lot more to this whole sorry saga than either side has divulged so far.

 

All of this has come about as a result of a "crappy" thread started probably in haste by someone who was miffed at something/someone else.  A whole different approach, where the whole FACTS were presented in a calmer and more rational and complete way would have elicited a whole different response all around. If you're pissed at anyone, I would suggest it should be the OP.  Jeez, if we carry on like this we'll have more closed than open threads on here. I'm outta here and done.

[vd9]

@C8RKH the extent of judgement and arrogance in the way you write these things is just ridiculous ("upset you", "that's just infantile", "get a sense of humour", "if you are pissed", etc.). Perhaps more helpful if I don't follow up, as there is nothing enjoyable, interesting or entertaining in continuing this discussion.

[Gashead1105]

 

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

So here's how I read the facts presented.

1. Jim I want a track exhaust

2. Don't go valved my boy

3. No, I know better I want valved

4. Jim. My valved exhaust is knackered after using it on track

5. Here, have a non valved track exhaust then, take it for a spin

6. I took you literally Jim, had a very high speed spin and off. You're exhaust is crappy because it split and I'm going to tell everyone, but not mention the spin.

7. @#£&@#£& £#@&£## off!

8. Wow. You heart my feelings Jim saying that, how rude

 

Got to say I agree with Andy (god dammit). Also 2bular have made clear on the website for a few years now that valved exhausts are not suitable for track use and any warranty that may be offered on exhausts that break following track use are void. I take that to mean it's at his discretion basically. I suspect posting up a thread which basically labels his product as shit is a good way not to get a positive outcome in this regard.

Having said that, Jim's rants are remarkably unprofessional but he's done them for years now whenever he's taken offence at something (ie frequently). Think he's still on here, has a login as 321freeflow. Hi Jim! 

[declaration of personal interest - my Evora came with a non-valved 2bular when I bought it. And many years ago I bought an exhaust for an S2 exige from him. Recall the customer service on the S2 exhaust was great (he took the first one back when I got a black flag on track for noise and sent me a slightly modified/updated replacement that was brilliant) Can't comment on the Evora as I didn't fit it. Doesn't mean I don't think his behaviour is unprofessional. Shame his exhausts are better than the competition at the price point.]

[geartox]

Maybe should we stop that topic here...

[Chillidoggy]

Nah, it’s just getting good. I’ve got the popcorn out, too.

[RedViper]

Aye. Get back to more interesting threads like stones stuck between panels 🙄

[Mark030358]

6 hours ago, C8RKH said:

@vd9 I've obviously upset you for which i apologise but I'm not really sure what your going on about to be honest.

Re your first point - so we agree then, it's our own choice - but remember, Jim was responding to an attack on him/his product on here - he did not instigate that.

Re your second point - I have no idea what this point is trying to say.  To clarify my point - "My choice is not to rant about poor service on a forum/social media whilst I am trying to resolve an issue". If others want to then as per the first point, that is their choice, but then don't get arsey about it when the person you are ranting about responds!  FFS, that's just infantile.

Re point three - get a sense of humour - I was, as can clearly be seen by the tone and smileys and the advanced apology having a laugh whilst making an important point that you have missed and I will spell out to you - We have not been presented by either side with the full facts so we should not judge whether one side is correct or the other.  The spin was missed off and has been ignored by the OP, or did Jim just make it up?  Being impartial means you look at what has been presented in total and make a decision based on that, not on one side or the other, as that is taking sides - i.e. the opposite of impartial.  I suspect there is a lot more to this whole sorry saga than either side has divulged so far.

 

All of this has come about as a result of a "crappy" thread started probably in haste by someone who was miffed at something/someone else.  A whole different approach, where the whole FACTS were presented in a calmer and more rational and complete way would have elicited a whole different response all around. If you're pissed at anyone, I would suggest it should be the OP.  Jeez, if we carry on like this we'll have more closed than open threads on here. I'm outta here and done.

Thought Jim was banned on TLF so cat reply to the original post?

[Bibs]

He's not been banned at all, in fact we lost other advertiser's in the past as I wouldn't ban him at their request. 

 

[Edinburgh 111s]

Jim has a history of this behaviour. It’s awful customer relations. 

I have no issue with the quality of his work, generally regarded as the best you can buy for a Lotus. 

There are always two sides to a story. What is inexcusable are his rants and borderline aggressive behaviour.

at the end of the day it’s his company and he runs it as he sees fit. What we need is a credible alternative to his product range. At present there isn’t one. 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Edinburgh 111s
Spelling mistake

[Bravo73]

1 hour ago, Edinburgh 111s said:

What we need is a credible alternative to his product range. At present there isn’t one. 

Of course, there are. You can buy something very similar off Komotec and/or Hangar111:

 

https://komo-tec.com/Shop/en/Exige/MK3-Toyota-V6-350-380/Exhaust/

http://www.hangar111.com/shop/lotus-exige-v6-exhaust-system/688-exige-evora-s-v6-signature-qt-sports-exhaust.html

[Mark030358]

2 hours ago, Bibs said:

He's not been banned at all, in fact we lost other advertiser's in the past as I wouldn't ban him at their request. 

 

Fait do's, fair comment...

[mark248am]

8 hours ago, Edinburgh 111s said:

Jim has a history of this behaviour. It’s awful customer relations. 

I have no issue with the quality of his work, generally regarded as the best you can buy for a Lotus. 

There are always two sides to a story. What is inexcusable are his rants and borderline aggressive behaviour.

at the end of the day it’s his company and he runs it as he sees fit. What we need is a credible alternative to his product range. At present there isn’t one. 

 

For those criticizing Jim's customer behavior, I just want to highlight that not everyone is a people person. I don't know Jim personally but I'd imagine he could be an introvert that started off making exhausts in his garage out of boredom and then turned it into a business and became popular. He probably would rather not have to deal with people but does so because it's a source of income. His people skills might be horrible and his PR is the worst, but that's probably because he never studied it and his personality is just normally aggressive and passionate.

Not defending his behavior, just trying to give a different perspective. He's not McDonald's end of the day so you can't expect the same level of customer is always right service.

[GFWilliams]

8 hours ago, Bravo73 said:

Of course, there are. You can buy something very similar off Komotec and/or Hangar111:

 

https://komo-tec.com/Shop/en/Exige/MK3-Toyota-V6-350-380/Exhaust/

http://www.hangar111.com/shop/lotus-exige-v6-exhaust-system/688-exige-evora-s-v6-signature-qt-sports-exhaust.html

Dave will hate me for this comment, but the H111 Exhaust looks like it was welded by Stevie Wonder in comparison to Jim’s work.  It may do the job as an exhaust, but when I saw one in person there was no way it was going on my car.  Jim may be a bit of an arse at times, but his exhausts are very good.

[RedViper]

45 minutes ago, GFWilliams said:

looks like it was welded by Stevie Wonder in comparison to Jim’s work.  

😂 at least they could save money on Welding masks 

Edited February 27, 2019 by RedViper

[C8RKH]

@mark248am think you hit the nail on the head there.

Anyone who has worked with "old school" engineers will recognise his behaviour. They are usually hugely well experienced, know their subject matter intimately, have an opinion, and will fiercely back it up. You can change their minds but not with airy fairy "views" or judgements that are not based on sound facts / reasoning as opposed to PoV.

They can come across as passive aggressive and in old language tactless and blunt.

However give me an old school engineer any day, their stuff usually works and is sound.

 

[RoflOnMyWaffle]

Not had any experience of Jims work, but usually on threads about exhausts I hear 2Bular as a recommended product - Hell, even Jamie at B&C rates them and said I should get one asap if I want the 380 experience with 1/10th of the cost! ( cost being £50k for a 350 sport and £65k for a 380 )