Brexit

[pete]

For there to be a general election there has to be 75% of MPs.voting for  and I can't see that happening

[C8RKH]

I blame the Vegans. It's all their fault!

May should never have called that bloody general election. She had the power and the glory before that and she bloody well screwed it up. I have nothing but contempt for the majority our politicians right now.

[march]

Sky News:

1. Police stating No deal Brexit will (and I quote) 'lead to disruption, danger, delays and rationing' 

2. People are now stockpiling food for next April

I think it's time to run for the hills - hang on a mo, I'm already on my hill with my cows, just need to set the man traps and prepare for the starving hoards.

As a note my mate thinks this is all a big stage act so the politicians can say next April it's all too complicated let's not bother. He may have a point but I'm not that cynical, I just think our politicians are the biggest bunch of (can't think of the right word but when I do it's not going to be a nice word).

[Barrykearley]

Just packing my kit up. Off poaching

9 hours ago, Andyww said:

This is what I think will happen:

May will get a vote of no-confidence.

Many ministers will resign

G.E. Will be called

Labour will get rid of Corbyn and replace him with a remainer.

Tories will to some extent deliberately throw the election and Labour will win, a total nightmare for the UK.

Another referendum will be called which will make the last one look like a paragon of virtue compared with the dirt which will be thrown around.

Referendum will vote to remain by a narrow majority.

So we will be back to square one with a disastrous Labour government to boot.

I really hope not......however part of me thinks you may well be correct 

[PaulCP]

Brexit nearing the end?

What on earth would the BBC have to report on every day giving us their expert viewsfrom their expert team. They, if anybody, need it to continue for another 2-3 years and beyond

[Neal H]

Seems clear that the current deal will never make it through Parliament. EU have stated that it's not prepared to negotiate it any further, so we leave with no deal by default. When we're finally out we can see if they want to negotiate a trade deal.

I think that's fairly well aligned with what I voted for, so happy with that outcome.

Given that none of the 'expert' opinions of the dire consequences that would befall us if we voted leave in June 2016 proved anywhere near close to what happened in reality, I don't think the sky is going to fall in as a consequence of no deal. As Mrs May once said "no deal is better than a bad deal".

[CHANGES]

27 minutes ago, Neal H said:

Seems clear that the current deal will never make it through Parliament. EU have stated that it's not prepared to negotiate it any further, so we leave with no deal by default. When we're finally out we can see if they want to negotiate a trade deal.

I think that's fairly well aligned with what I voted for, so happy with that outcome.

Given that none of the 'expert' opinions of the dire consequences that would befall us if we voted leave in June 2016 proved anywhere near close to what happened in reality, I don't think the sky is going to fall in as a consequence of no deal. As Mrs May once said "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Agreed .. 

[PaulCP]

I have an expert view having just declared, like many, that I am an expert 

I have analysed the subject to death over the past 2 minutes, just like all experts, and concluded that whatever the outcome the effect on the U.K. future economy is unknown, it’s all conjecture and opinions 

[pete]

1 hour ago, PaulCP said:

I have an expert view having just declared, like many, that I am an expert 

I have analysed the subject to death over the past 2 minutes, just like all experts, and concluded that whatever the outcome the effect on the U.K. future economy is unknown, it’s all conjecture and opinions 

As it has been since the word expert was invented. As someone once said we have loads of experts but no expertise

[Andyww]

In certain areas, notably economics, so-called experts are usually wrong.

A classic example is Paul Krugman. He won a Nobel prize but has been completely wrong about everything. Every single prediction he has ever made has been wrong.

[Kimbers]

Bit like the remainers then!

[march]

Well it made me chuckle 😃

[USAndretti42]

How can Labour keep saying they will negotiate to keep us in a customs union with the EU when the EU say that means following their rules, paying in and free movement of labour?

It's all a cock-up becsuse brexiters did not vote for a single vision of what being out of the EU would be while the remainers just tried to scare everyone to stay to the status quo.  Too many news outlets took a position on staying or leaving while too few gave any analysis of the true options.  Then we get to the negotiations where the EU complained about Britain's lack of a plan but never presented what they thought was acceptable (or, if they did, I never saw it anywhere).  This made us look like a bunch of amateurs.  However, I haven't heard of any of the brexiteer MPs saying what they want the deal to be, if there is to be a deal.

Then  there those who see it just as a way of becoming the prime minister and bugger the consequences for the country.  Bloody shocking the whole affair and all done in an attempt to put UKIP in its place after they had a strong showing in minor elections.

Do we have any leaders any more?

[Steve V8]

No we don't... 

I see the French aren't happy with their politicians again, so armed with their high-vis jackets they take to the streets, block the highways, protest and generally cause absolute mayhem. Fair play to them.

Then here's us, being well and truly shafted by the Europeans and our own spineless politicians and we just sit back and let it happen, no strikes, no protests that are big enough to be heard, we voted out and are rolling over being taken for fools.

If May somehow manages to get this pathetic deal through parliament, it's a disaster for all of us leavers and remainers alike, we all know it, yet we sit quiet and say nothing, it's time we stood up and created havoc like the French

 

[C8RKH]

7 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

it's time we stood up and created havoc like the French

The reality is we are too busy working, earning and paying our taxes to pay for the chaos and confusion caused by the French, Italians etc...  :)

To be honest, yes we are too passive. However, look through history and the British way is generally to hunker down, accept it, and somehow find a way to make it hard through hard work etc.  It is what we do as a nation, it is our default stance.  This will change and is changing through immigration (no, that is not a poke at immigration) as others brings their "way" with them and we get influenced from within.

The French are largely pathetic in my eyes. Yes, they put their hi-vis vests on. yes they bloke the roads. Yes they burn tyres. Their fooking air traffice controllers strike if their coffee is not hot enough. They strike for any reason. But they never change. They shout, scream and get emotional but they don't change anything. The same small clique just keep on running France from Paris, the elite from the sme schools and families still hold all the power. And nothing the French people do changes this. It achieves nothing apart from pissing off everyone else in the EU who have to suffer the consequences.

I do agree that we have a wretched batch of politicians in the UK. By and large it is about them. For them. By them. They don't give a stuff about the real people in the UK. All they care about is there own place in celebrity. Their own ability to generate wealth, not for the country, but for themselves. Just look at that complete muppet Ed Balls. A supposed socialist. A supposed politician for the people. Is there anything he will not do for money, for fame, for celebrity? Truly shocking.  Then look at Johnson and Rees-Mogg - arrogant to the core and all about them.  Corbyn - one of the nastiest politicians in the Uk but hides it well and for him it is all about absolute power and he is ruthless now in its pursuit.

@USAndretti42 summed it up perfectly a few posts ago.  The blame for this mess is with ALL of our politicians for not getting behind the vote and for posturing, playing games, telling lies (both sides did it), and trying to eek out personal fame and favour as opposed to what is best for the country and its people. They should all collectively hang their heads in shame.

Don't even get me started about Vince Cable (he should have retired years ago and is just a non entity) or the DUP and SNP who have used this to drive deeper and deeper wedges into the UK as opposed to actually turning up and positively contributing.

We get the politicians we deserve i guess. And as a country obsessed with self promotion, personal status and celebrity these days, then why should we be surprised when we get politicians in this mold.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

To be honest the whole situation would have made a good West End farce.

Act 1: PM #1 decides to include EU referendum in General Election manifesto in attempt to finally silence mutinous Brexiteers.

Act 2: PM #1 wins election with reasonable overall majority and campaigns for Remain in run-up to referendum.

Act 3: PM #1 loses EU referendum by 48.1% to 51.9% and promptly resigns.

Act 4: Party holds leadership election and leading candidate is figuratively stabbed in back by treacherous colleague Gove at last moment.

Act 5: Party elects second choice PM #2 who promises to deliver best Brexit deal for Britain. PM #2 appoints Brexit Secretary #1. PM invokes Article 50. Negotiations with EU commence. Irish border solution is recognised as biggest potential hurdle.

Act 6: PM #2 calls snap General Election in an attempt to significantly increase overal majority and strengthen UK's hand in Brexit negotiations. Result backfires dramatically: overall majority wiped out. Coalition has to be formed with DUP to reach a working majority: the very Party that has a vested interest in the Irish border issue and demands same status as rest of UK in any agreement.

Act 7: Negotiations progress glacially. Deadlines come and go. PM #2 decides to bang her Cabinet's heads together with weekend pizza party at her place and comes up with Chequers deal.

Act 8: Once their heads have cleared, Cabinet ministers start to distance themselves from Chequers deal. Brexit Secretary #1 resigns.

Act 9: Draft Brexit deal is suddenly announced on very last day possible. Brexiteers don't like it, Remainers don't like it and, critically the DUP really don't like it. Labour announces that they will vote against the deal when it comes to Parliament, so with their MPs, many Conservatives and the provincial Parties all expected to vote against, the deal appears to be strangled at birth. Brexit Secretary #2 resigns. PM #2 ploughs on regardless and asks arch villain Gove to be Brexit Secretary #3. He refuses. PM #2 appoints recently resigned ex Home Secretary fourth choice Brexit Secretary #3.

Act 10: To Be Continued.

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by LotusLeftLotusRight

[Andyww]

Its the age-old problem. Politicians are not particularly well paid so the type of person who becomes one craves power as a reward instead.

And such people are wholly unfit to govern as they have fundamentally the wrong type of mental capability for pragmatic thoughts and actions.

[Andyww]

5 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

To be honest the whole situation would have made a good West End farce.

 

To add to all of that there is the strange situation where the person in charge of leaving is a remainer and the leader of the opposition is a leaver but the party he leads is almost completely remain.

[jonwat]

Countries demanding access to our fishing waters include Portugal, Spain, France, Holland & Denmark has reminded me that before the UK applied to join the EU there was no Common Fisheries Policy which gives all members rights to fish in all other members waters. The CFP was only pushed through as soon as we applied to join & now French fishermen are threatening to blockade the port of Calais unless they're allowed to continue to fish in our waters. British anglers are allowed to keep only one sea bass per day while French trawlers take thousands of Tonnes a year, and we've agreed to pay £50 Billion to leave, total bloody madness. 

[Kimbers]

And hidden away in Euro news the real story of a Corrupt, non democratic organisation, run by Big money and Big Business. France and Germany recommending doing away with National Governments and centralising all their funds, Army etc at the EU.......Why is it hidden away? Wouldn't want to upset the BBC's Agenda on trying to get Brexit cancelled! 

Anyone else know that Macron has links to the Rothschilds and actually had their backing to be President? Anyone smell something Corrupt?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46254393 

[PaulCP]

Just seen that Corbyn’s recent speech hasn’t changed in 1 bit from his many before,  and it is still the same old theme, “I want a general election if the Brexit deal is rejected by parliament”

As constructive as ever Jezza, it means “I sniff a chance if the electorate are thick enough”

But has he actually yet thought through how he will carry out his Superman/Flash Gordon bit in saving the world. I guess at least he has his “King of the Economy” winch man by his side though

Does he actually understand anything at all apart from his own self esteem

[ChrisJ]

 

[LotuStuart]

10 hours ago, Andyww said:

Its the age-old problem. Politicians are not particularly well paid so the type of person who becomes one craves power as a reward instead.

And such people are wholly unfit to govern as they have fundamentally the wrong type of mental capability for pragmatic thoughts and actions.

Not so long ago MPs pay was ~60k£, and their allowable expenses were ~245k£

 

[jonwat]

On 19/11/2018 at 09:20, Andyww said:

Its the age-old problem. Politicians are not particularly well paid so the type of person who becomes one craves power as a reward instead.

And such people are wholly unfit to govern as they have fundamentally the wrong type of mental capability for pragmatic thoughts and actions.

It p155es me off that no formal qualification is required in order to run for parliament so those that can gobshite the most get elected. Some of the labour front bench are right muppets, as are their leaders. 

[Bibs]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/tony-abbott-how-to-save-brexit/

Quote

It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.

Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015