Ukraine

[C8RKH]

 

14 minutes ago, basalte said:

Russian donations to the Conservative Party 2011-2020. 

£2,955,928.00

And hey presto  it’s “ ooooh look over at that Corbyn!” from the Telegraph brigade …

Lets see whether the wallets close now eh ? 

And Labour's country of choice for funding these days seems to be China with their superb track record of protecting workers rights with huge donations through the office of Labour MP Barry Gardiner, a Corbynista I believe.  How hypocritical is that from the "party for the workers?".

All the Parties are "at it". As I said, is there a Politician or a Party you can actually trust these days?

6 hours ago, Mark Blanchard said:

Yes we've got someone much more sensible thank goodness.

Remind how many British sons and daughters were killed through a war that Boris started unlawfully?  How many local men, women and children were killed in the Middle East on top of that as a result of miss-information and an illegal war?

Yup, I'd rather be taking the piss out of Boris than crying at the coffins being driven through Wootton Bassett thanks to Blair et al. 

[910Esprit]

Ironically, Putin will secure Boris in his current job.   I reckon he's noticeably upped his game since this started and he has breathing space from Partygate.

[basalte]

No , sorry C8 , playing the “ they’re all the same !” card is a handy but wholly superficial way of defending what’s been happening . You’ll also find the Chinese equally pally with Cameron and May by the way . 
The key is this ; Russia is the City of London’s very own Gazprom pipeline and they don’t want that flow cut off . 
Far more effective analysis is to “follow the money “ ; Exports to Russia were worth £ 232 million - and that was in the year after the Salisbury poisonings ! 

[TdM]

Half our problem is that the best way to get off gas is nuclear. Have a guess where we turn when we need nuclear... China! Another great option to be reliant on.

 

Although at least the assets are then in country

[tim_marra]

7 hours ago, TdM said:

Half our problem is that the best way to get off gas is nuclear. Have a guess where we turn when we need nuclear... China! Another great option to be reliant on.

 

Although at least the assets are then in country

The EDF projects at Hinkley and eventually Sizewell use EPR design, but yes China amongst others are providing the funding.

The small scale reactors being proposed are Rolls Royce, don't know what foreign design and financial input they receive though.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I see that the Government has now banned Aeroflot from UK airspace.
Come on Boris, think it through: how on earth will the Man Utd team get to their next game at Leicester City?

[Escape]

9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

The West lost the initiative when we rolled over and went back to sleep after Putin walked into Crimea. It was a pre-cursor to this and one of the three main routes into Ukraine now.

This! Nobody seems willing to do what is needed to stop him, so he knows he can do pretty much what he likes. Europe once again proves itself nothing more than a paperweight. So far all they have done is exclude Russia from the eurovision song contest...

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

9 minutes ago, Escape said:

So far all they have done is exclude Russia from the eurovision song contest...

I don’t think they’ve even done that!

[Mark Blanchard]

I hear Russian troops are starting to mass around Poland now.  They’re in Nato.  I hope this is wrong, otherwise it’s a total bloody nightmare, WW3.

[Bibs]

I'm sure they said that NATO represents 50% of the world's economy and Russia 2%. He'd be a bit of a dick trying to attack NATO, it won't end well for Russia.

1,700 people arrested in Moscow yesterday from the protesters, this isn't a popular war in his home country. 

[Mark Blanchard]

Worst still our snowflakes would get drafted.  We wouldn’t stand a chance.

[Mark030358]

7 minutes ago, Bibs said:

I'm sure they said that NATO represents 50% of the world's economy and Russia 2%. He'd be a bit of a dick trying to attack NATO, it won't end well for Russia.

1,700 people arrested in Moscow yesterday from the protesters, this isn't a popular war in his home country. 

That’s 1.21*10^-5 percent of the population

[Bibs]

That's the number they arrested, not the number that attended. 

I'm sure that protesting in Moscow is about as happy an experience as Tiananmen Square, just an indication of the populations feelings. 

[Barrykearley]

1 minute ago, Mark Blanchard said:

Worst still our snowflakes would get drafted.  We wouldn’t stand a chance.

It’s not gonna happen

[tim_marra]

13 minutes ago, Bibs said:

I'm sure they said that NATO represents 50% of the world's economy and Russia 2%. He'd be a bit of a dick trying to attack NATO, it won't end well for Russia.

Or anyone else.....

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

I'm sure that protesting in Moscow is about as happy an experience as Tiananmen Square, just an indication of the populations feelings. 

This^

Full respect to the Russian citizens who are protesting, they deserve our support as they too do not want, nor did they ask for this war. And by protesting in this manner in Russia, they are putting themselves intentionally in harms way.  Don't confuse the ramifications of protesting in Russia against Putin with what happens say here when we provide the protestors tea and sympathy!  The vast majority of Russians are very decent people, they are not all oligarchs and politicians.

[basalte]

Come on , is no one going to return to the root of this conflict ? The actual cause ? Not just that Putin’s a dick ( which he is ). 

it was that NATO promised Russia that it wouldn’t expand Eastwards .

It has since then , expanded Eastwards . 

None of this justifies Russia invading Ukraine- but the above is their main reasoning for it . 

[C8RKH]

10 hours ago, basalte said:

No , sorry C8 , playing the “ they’re all the same !” card is a handy but wholly superficial way of defending what’s been happening . You’ll also find the Chinese equally pally with Cameron and May by the way . 
The key is this ; Russia is the City of London’s very own Gazprom pipeline and they don’t want that flow cut off . 
Far more effective analysis is to “follow the money “ ; Exports to Russia were worth £ 232 million - and that was in the year after the Salisbury poisonings ! 

I was responding to your Corbyn propaganda about how he is always maligned/targeted/misquoted/whatever.  

Don't confuse my criticism of politicians as all being the same as being an acceptance that turning a blind eye to the corruption in politics, in this country and elsewhere is OK.  I am well aware of the "value" of Russian "investment" in the UK. Oh, and if you think exports of £232m is worthy, tell me when to stop laughing as UK total exports per annum are around £400bn, so that £232m is about as significant as my view on anything   It's about the same as the average Russian Oligarch spends on a yacht, when most have several!

The real hypocrisy is that we are still taking gas from them. We are still doing anything with them. It might be a tough pill to swallow but if our politicians were really serious about supporting Ukraine we'd have cut all trading ties and trade with Russia as soon as they invaded.

 

[C8RKH]

17 minutes ago, basalte said:

Come on , is no one going to return to the root of this conflict ? The actual cause ? Not just that Putin’s a dick ( which he is ). 

it was that NATO promised Russia that it wouldn’t expand Eastwards .

It has since then , expanded Eastwards . 

None of this justifies Russia invading Ukraine- but the above is their main reasoning for it . 

No, that's his excuse and you've fallen for it.  The commitment was given prior to 1991 and the fall of the USSR which no one at that time could of, or did, predict.  The assurance that Russia sort was that NATO would not expand east and encroach into the USSR, or rather, the Nations that were still covered under the Warsaw pact. With the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, many of those nations broke away from the USSR/Russia and became independent states, despite threats and retaliation from Moscow. Over time, some, not all, of those newly "independent" countries aligned themselves with the West, particularly through entering into the common market, now the EU. Their financial and trading interests then pivoted from east to west, and over time they sought at various times to join NATO in no small part as a result of the consistent threats, rhetoric and tone of Russia towards them. In essence, they feared that what is happening to Ukraine now, would happen to them, and so they sort protection elsewhere.

A big part of the issue here is that Russia's politics is based around "bully boy tactics".  If they had embraced the fall of the old USSR and built positive, strong, commercial ties with the former Warsaw pact countries then quite frankly we would not be in this mess and quite likely those ex Warsaw Pact countries would not have been "driven" towards NATO.

You could argue that the EU's expansionist agenda is as much to blame, as they courted many of these countries to join. The promise of a young, cheap labour force being used to fund traditional EU countries growth, building a swelling middle class in those countries for EU products and services, was too much to ignore.  Thank fcuk that the EU has been slow to create it's own Army, as the bigger issue there would be that the EU potentially would be about to enter into war with Russia. Now that would be a clusterfcuk for us all as I believe from an earlier post France has already surrended, the Dutch would stand by and watch as they did in Kosovo and have a schmoke, and the Italians would suddenly switch sides and be Putins puppet!  (I know, I know, all very stereotypical and said in jest as opposed to offend).

[Chillidoggy]

Putin doesn't want a border with a NATO country. However by invading Ukraine, that is precisely what he's going to get, in the form of Hungary, Poland, etc. There was no contract or treaty not to expand NATO, only a verbal agreement, and as we all know they're not worth the paper they're written on. Putin justifying his actions on such a verbal agreement is indefensible.

[C8RKH]

I can't help but think that with all their natural resources, if Putin had gone about building a constructive relationship with his neighbours, they really would be the richest country in the world and arguably the strongest "Super Power" through their financial and economic might. It's a tragedy that a country so blessed with land, natural resources, and a resilient population, has been led down such a path as they have.  Value has been destroyed and it is Russians that have lost out, apart from the few who have prospered beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

Venezuela, another country that through mismanagement has squandered it's natural resources at a rate that is quite astounding and at such a high price for its citizens.

The real tragedy is how leaders who can only seem to destroy value get into power and stay into power through power!

[Escape]

30 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

The real hypocrisy is that we are still taking gas from them. We are still doing anything with them. It might be a tough pill to swallow but if our politicians were really serious about supporting Ukraine we'd have cut all trading ties and trade with Russia as soon as they invaded.

The problem is we need that gas, now more than ever. And the other trade is quite important as well, both export and import. I also read Western banks have 10s (possibly even >100) of bn of Euros tied up in loans to Russian companies. If trading ties are cut, those will never get repaid and the West could suffer more than Russia, possibly leading to another banking crisis.

[march]

7 minutes ago, Escape said:

The problem is we need that gas, now more than ever. And the other trade is quite important as well, both export and import. I also read Western banks have 10s (possibly even >100) of bn of Euros tied up in loans to Russian companies. If trading ties are cut, those will never get repaid and the West could suffer more than Russia, possibly leading to another banking crisis.

Sorry that does not cut it with me. A European country is being invaded, people are dying, and we are just sitting on the side lines watching and tinkering with a few sanctions. At what point should the UK and EU actually stand up and so something meaningful?

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

We should paint Ukrainian flags on cruise missiles and get any NATO warships in the Black Sea and the Fairford B52s to launch at Russian military installations and air-bases. Help even things up a bit.

[C8RKH]

23 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

We should paint Ukrainian flags on cruise missiles and get any NATO warships in the Black Sea and the Fairford B52s to launch at Russian military installations and air-bases. Help even things up a bit.

That won't happen as it WILL mean the mass destruction of Europe, the US, and Russia.  The only parts of the world left that would be habitable would be South America, Some of China, South Asia, Australia, New Zealand.  Any attack by the West on Russian military forces and installations on Russian soil could precipitate the sky being full of missiles. Hardly a sensible approach.

1 hour ago, Escape said:

The problem is we need that gas, now more than ever. And the other trade is quite important as well, both export and import. I also read Western banks have 10s (possibly even >100) of bn of Euros tied up in loans to Russian companies. If trading ties are cut, those will never get repaid and the West could suffer more than Russia, possibly leading to another banking crisis.

It's not real money but promises on electronic systems. They can be erased and would be. Default would put Russia back to the middle ages in around 10 years.