Is electric really the answer?

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, Bibs said:

Our public charging cost compared to 'plugged into your own house overnight' can be 15 times more expensive, imagine the petrol station at the services charging £22.50/l unleaded. 

Funnily enough, just come of a call where we were discussing the potential "implosion" of the EV Charging Networks in the UK. The things we discussed covered the total cost of deployment and running. Think about it:

1. You have to search for and find the site. Negotiate the contracts and apply for all the different permits etc. This can take 6 months minimum.

2. You then need to negotiate with the DNO's re the "connection" to the network and pay the fee's associated with it which are not inconsiderable.

3. You then need to fund all the civils - concrete, tarmac, pipes, etc - the connection to the substation could be up to 1.5km away.

4. You then need to pay for the chargers and their physical installation and commissioning

5. Then there is comms connections, payment network charges and connections etc.

So you could be sitting on an  "investment" of say £20k to £150k per charger. You charge £1/kwh (which is outrageous) but out of that pound after paying for the energy, taxes etc you make around 20p gross profit" - So just to break even, not including servicing and maintenance and repair costs, you need somewhere between 100,000 and 750,000 paid for charging hours. To put that into time perspective its 11 years to 85 years with an asset that has a projected lifespan of 7-8 years. Great business eh?

[Bibs]

With those financials, there shouldn't be a single public charger in the UK. I guess that's why they're usually installed with more than 1 charger at each location. 

[C8RKH]

Correct @Bibs, which spreads the costs somewhat per charger (and that includes double gun chargers) but you can still see that the economics are not brilliant. Fancy getting into that business yourself? We've just decided on that call that we're no longer going to own our assets, but install, commission, warranty, service and maintain others assets. Much less risk to our business going forwards than being a CPO.

[C8RKH]

Nope @Chillidoggy. @pete would be impressed by your conciseness!

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Just dropped my Evora off at Lotus Silverstone. There’s Eletres and Emeyas parked up as far as the eye can see! Well slight exaggeration, but you get the gist.

[C8RKH]

And here was me thinking they were flying off the shelf as everyone has £100k to spend on an EV right, especially when they'll lose £60k of that in 2 years...

Just took a random quotation of an Eletre and put it through WeBuyAnyCar:

Original new Price (23 car) listed at £124k on Autotrader in April 24 with c. 400miles

Price today on Autotrader by same dealer - £105k - a £20k drop for no miles.

We buy any car will take it off your hands today, assuming 1,000 miles, for £80k. Another £25k drop.

I'm not poor, quite comfortable really financially, but errrr, no thanks. A £45k hit in under 12 months. Nice.

[aquiss]

16 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Just dropped my Evora off at Lotus Silverstone. There’s Eletres and Emeyas parked up as far as the eye can see! Well slight exaggeration, but you get the gist.

I was there on Thursday...about 20 customer cars (Eletres) turned up on Wednesday of last week, so they will be going through handovers bit by bit. They also have 2 Emeyas (a blue and orange) which are show/demo cars as they don't expect to be in customer hands until the new year.

[DarrylV8]

Bradford Lotus are doing over 110 Eletre handovers October/November

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, DarrylV8 said:

Bradford Lotus are doing over 110 Eletre handovers October/November

That is impressive to be fair.

[exeterjeep]

From Daily Telegraph/FB,

A popular brand of electric vehicle sold in Australia has a hidden backdoor allowing the manufacturer to listen into conversations, users claim. After witnessing an explosive month showcasing the awful possibilities of technological warfare, the topic of electric vehicles and their potential to be hacked has once again been thrust into the global spotlight

[exeterjeep]

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/new-research-has-found-that-evs-are-up-to-50-more-expense-to-repair-than-combustion-engine-vehicles/308526

New research finds EVs are up to 50% more expense to repair than ICE vehicles
Warranty Solutions Group analysis reveals the cost of repairing EVs
Most common issues with battery charge control modules
Maintenance plans for EVs also undesirable for fleet operators

[Kimbers]

On 02/10/2024 at 15:04, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Just dropped my Evora off at Lotus Silverstone. There’s Eletres and Emeyas parked up as far as the eye can see! Well slight exaggeration, but you get the gist.

They are the tip of the Iceberg believe me. I was told they have sites everywhere with all Lotus's stacked. However they aren't alone. KIA at last count had 2800 EV9's at ports unsold, some of those are £70k cars so you do the math! And its the same throughout Europe for all manufacturers. Frankly anyone who ramped production up on EV's deserves what they get because you can't force people into something they don't want. 

We (People who work outside the "Yes sir, yes sir 3 bags full sir" bubble) could see it before they even started cancelling their ICE cars and swapping the models for EV only. I'm not even sure when I said it first but it was years ago that I pointed out "Don't do it" to both buyers and Manufacturers. And with the largest drop in sales of BEV's since 2017 across Europe and the biggest rise in PHEV's out of all markets, me thinks they have jumped the gun!

Now you have the likes of Stellantis, Ford & Toyota saying "If you fine us we will drop all our factories in the UK, all our outlets and quit the UK" there has to come a huge change. And before anyone says they won't back out, we are talking £4.2 billion in fines likely for Stellantis and  Ford over £10billion, they can't afford to NOT back away from the market!

Seriously who dumps off all their ICE cars before testing the market? (Looks across at Hethel and Elise Exige cancellation).

[C8RKH]

5 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

From Daily Telegraph/FB,

A popular brand of electric vehicle sold in Australia has a hidden backdoor allowing the manufacturer to listen into conversations, users claim. After witnessing an explosive month showcasing the awful possibilities of technological warfare, the topic of electric vehicles and their potential to be hacked has once again been thrust into the global spotlight

This is racist given it is well documented that Tesla's, from a US company have not just been listening but sending video recordings from the cameras back "home" iirc, and no mention of that.

[910Esprit]

7 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

allowing the manufacturer to listen into conversations

surely that's what every smart device has the capability of doing 24/7?    if it can be 'woken up' by a command such as 'hey google' or whatever, its listening!  Seem to recall Amazon (or possibly Google) were busted for this very thing several years ago.

[C8RKH]

Yup. I hate them (smart devices).

The only one I have is my phone and I often turn it off for long periods.

My wife and I play games - we pick a topic for a conversation, have the conversation, with our phones on near us, and then we monitor the "adverts" and "suggested posts" we get from Google, Facebook, etc.  It's amazing what the phones and the "software" pick up on and how they use this to target us. It's quite scary actually.

[Chillidoggy]

I’m not remotely worried by this “revelation”, because I know that 99% of any recorded conversations in my cars will be deleted due to the swearing that inevitably commences before we’ve left our driveway.

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

In defence of EV's we've had a Nissan Leaf for about 5 years now as a local runabout. Occasionally we use all it's 150 mile range for a return trip up to town. Servicing is peanuts, the battery health is still around 98%, all charged from a 3 pin plug.

That said our enthusiasm for a long range EV with more performance has dropped off a lot, running costs, huge depreciation, dubious claims on range etc. The idea of a hybrid still appeals though, something sensible, 60mpg, McLaren Artura fits the bill nicely... if a little over budget! 

 

[jep]

Leaf: what's been the depreciation in 5 years? And is it entertaining to drive?

I've driven an i3 for a few miles. Skinny tyres appeal and it has character but I couldn't stomach the depreciation or the inability to do a long journey if required.  

Justin 

[MPx]

Interesting thoughts Justin. 

Range is what it is in the i3: for our 2018 that's 100 winter, 130 summer which is fine for the majority of uses but hopeless if you have no other cars for longer journeys.

Agree that the car can be appealing to drive - certainly a good compromise between practical and fun for a city car.

Don't get the depreciation comment.  Ours was £29k new in 2018.  Just looked up on Autotrader and it looks like most are being marketed at around £13k (some more, some less) so maybe a £16k drop in 6 years just 55%.   As depreciation goes that seems better than "normal" isn't it?  Based around my rule of thumb that general car values drop about 50% every 3 years - or does that no longer hold true in the mass market?

[jep]

Depreciation: I buy 4 to 10 year old daily wagons, as I find large depreciation objectionable. 

EG: Swift Sport. Buy at £9k, 21,000 miles. 3 years on, 59,000 miles, probably worth £6k. One big bill for servicing at £1300, the rest routine.  

We need range, as sometimes doing 300+ miles in a day. Not often but when you need it, you don't want drama or delay. 

Would I look at a 4 to 10 year old electric car? That is the debate for me. Range the obvious issue but also depreciation and costs of repairs. 

Justin 

[LotuStuart]

On 26/09/2024 at 21:52, C8RKH said:

That looks like a poor photoshop or an AI generated image. I don't believe it's real, much as I am not a Tesla/Musk fan I don't believe it.

 

I had the same thoughts, but then after a quick search....

To cut to the chase, this quote from there:

"It makes sense. Tesla doesn't have a van/truck in their line-up yet, and it'd be stupid to use a sub-optimal vehicle for the job just to use your own model.

I bet that Ferrari don't use actual Ferraris for their service vehicles either."

[Chillidoggy]

2 hours ago, LotuStuart said:

I had the same thoughts, but then after a quick search....

To cut to the chase, this quote from there:

"It makes sense. Tesla doesn't have a van/truck in their line-up yet, and it'd be stupid to use a sub-optimal vehicle for the job just to use your own model.

I bet that Ferrari don't use actual Ferraris for their service vehicles either."

Given Fiat owns Ferrari, they probably use Fiat vans.

[Kimbers]

Don't buy an Electric Van. They are hopeless.

Something like the Peugeot Expert EV has a "useable" range of 80 miles, absolutely hopeless for someone using a commercial vehicle. Start stop, start stop, kills your range as well so not good for multi drop. Our Amazon guy laughed when I asked where his EV van was "being charged mate, I can only use it for about 1/3 of the day then I have to go into a diesel Van".

We tried a Berlingo EV van and they advertised the range as 170 miles. Our test included a full load (which is 200kg down on a diesel due to the weight of the batteries) and Motorway driving, as 90% of vans are used in this way. In winter we got just over 72 miles before the warning came up. And at the M1 Junction near Milton Keynes as well! Anyone who knows that junction knows it's 30 miles either way to the next junction and services. 20 minutes of hunting for a charge point around country lanes killed the van and it was handed back the next day.

Terrible experience. And they know it as they have just announced their first Peugeot Expert Hydrogen model coming out next year!

Meanwhile in reality land, we have just done 370 miles in our 3 year old Peugeot Partner Diesel, after filling up before we left, loaded with paintings and involving 127 miles there, 3 days of driving on the outskirts of Londinium, delivery of our large centre piece painting which sold at the fair we were at, then 132 miles back (A3 junction was closed). We averaged 57.6 MPG and still have 300 mile range left in the tank.

[exeterjeep]

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

Don't buy an Electric Van. They are hopeless.

Seem to recall Fifth gear not being impressed when they tried a couple of rivals.

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

On 06/10/2024 at 20:47, jep said:

Leaf: what's been the depreciation in 5 years? And is it entertaining to drive?

I've driven an i3 for a few miles. Skinny tyres appeal and it has character but I couldn't stomach the depreciation or the inability to do a long journey if required.  

Justin 

Depreciation's easily 50% but then I just looked at 5 y.o Mini's the same sort of mileage and they seen to have dropped off a similar amount. I wouldn't say it's entertaining but it's got character and we all love it. As I said we didn't buy it with long journeys in mind, 150miles ( pretty accurate on the range too ), it's good enough for a 60 mile each way trip with a bit to spare. We tend to use it as a local runabout, most of out trips are 20-60 mile round trips. Factor in it's been cheap to run off a 3 pin plug, the servicing's been £100-150 max, no road tax. It's a great little car, does a fine job for what we expect of it.