Ian's S4s refurb

[Chillidoggy]

Having another look, the seal carrier has different thicknesses in way of the securing screw holes. I measured it as 6mm in the thinnest area, to 13mm in the thickest. I managed to extract two from the thin areas and one from a thick area, but whether this has any bearing on things is anyone's guess. It does however mean that were I to drill the screw heads off, there would be more thread protruding from the remaining ones in the 'thick' areas (13mm). This, then, may be enough to get a pipe wrench on them.

Procrastination is however, still continuing.

[sailorbob]

As you are replacing the seal would it be worth welding a bolt onto the button head? The heat from the welding may help break the seal on the threads.

[Chillidoggy]

Yes, that's something that is in the procrastination pot, except I don't currently possess a MIG welder. If I go down that route, I'll probably have to buy one. I shall have one more punt at forcing a new but into the socket later today, then it's on to the next plan.

[silverfrost]

A quality pair of mole grips would shift those imo 

[jcslocum]

You can hammer a slightly larger torx bit into the to try and loosen. This has worked well for me in the past. Heating the area near where the threads go in with propane can help grow the hole too.

 

good luck!

[Steve V8]

Centre punch and hammer would be my suggestion,  if you can make a deep enough divot near the edge of the cap to get some purchase, then a few angled taps towards the direction of undoness should free the little bugers. 

If not, then a firelighter on top of the tyre should give you ample time to get to the pub without getting caught in the inferno.

[Chillidoggy]

So far, I have tried Torx, hex-bits, nut extractors of two different designs, and probably 6 different standard Allen keys, all to no avail. These things are well and truly stuck fast.

The next plan is to drill out five M10 mild steel nuts to give me as much space as possible for a weld whilst leaving the hex outside, and MIG them onto the button heads. This won't happen immediately, as I have to see whether I can scrounge a gas MIG for a couple of hours. I've checked, and a new one is £200, so that's out for the moment at least. The bloke across the road is welder, and has a gasless one but I've used it in the past, and quite frankly, it's crap by comparison with the ones that use gas, and I need a decent job.

@Steve V8 * @silverfrost, sadly your suggestions of a decent pair of mole grips, and a hammer and centre punch are not going to cut the mustard here. Although Steve's suggestion of a firelighter as a fuse may be something worth considering in the near future.

[DanR]

Try a pointed punch and delicately tap around the perimeter of each bolt. Heat could be useful as well. If there's no movement and they're started to get butchered, you'll need to decide when to stop so you can weld the nuts on.

I have a Henrob oxy torch which is ideal for these situations. It can produce an oxy flame a few mm's long so can heat small items with precision. Maybe you can track one down there.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=henrob+welding+torch&client=ubuntu&hs=2DW&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK8Zad49vRAhUBv5QKHZZjB68Q_AUICCgB&biw=1312&bih=639#imgrc=ZpELw5bxtMtOaM%3A

[TAR]

I would second using a small chisel or punch applied at an angle. A flat bladed chisel can be used on the edge of the hole for the torx.

 

[davevr6car]

Ian,

mine were a pain to remove too...when I was rebuilding my S4s engine......some came out using a larger torx fitting......I used a dremel with a small cutting disc to square off 2 sides so I could get a grip on it with a spanner for the non recessed ones and small vice grips on the recessed ones. if memory serves me right...I replaced them with cap head bolts.

 

cheers

Dave

[Escape]

On another engine, but with the same type of bolts, I had no choice but to drill off the heads, as they were recessed in the housing. Once the housing was removed and the tensile strain gone, they could be removed with pliers rather easily.

[Chillidoggy]

Thanks for the suggestions, chaps!

 

Dan - Tried that with a small propane torch. The only thing I reckon it achieved was to soften the heads, but difficult to say for sure as the sockets are all chewed up.

Tim - Tried that, I only succeeded in removing bits off the button head.

Dave - This sounds like it might have some legs, assuming I haven't softened the heads too much with the gas torch.

Filip - Yes, that's sound reasoning. The screws that penetrate the thicker part of the casing will have less thread in the block, and more in the seal carrier, so could be a solution.

 

So, I shall have a go with Dave's suggestion first, oh, wait, just remembered my Dremel broke last year, so it looks like I shall have to get my hand in my pocket again.

 

 

 

 

[Barrykearley]

You tried some of these ??

http://www.screwfix.com/p/screw-extractor-5-piece-set/18643?kpid=18643&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product Listing Ads-_-Sales Tracking-_-sales tracking url&gclid=CJ6omO_w3NECFUkQ0wode4IKjw

Use bolts on reassembly

[Chillidoggy]

No, but with a diameter only 6mm, I don't think I could drill an accurate hole for them, and in any case the side wall would be so thin, it would likely not work.

I have these two excellent kits, and nearly managed to get one to work, but with the dome, it just couldn't get enough bite into the head.

[johnpwalsh]

I had a similar issue on a rebuilt engine I bought from a well know Lotus bits supplier. My problem was they had replaced the bolts with ones with a thicker head, when you depressed the clutch the flywheel hit the bolt heads. Obviously couldn't see what the problem was so took the lump out again. It then became evident what was wrong. The parts supplier to this day says it was end float on the shaft was causing the problem. Bullock's. And even if it had been, then why did he sell me a rebuilt engine with excessive float. Anyway, I replaced the bolts with cap screws, refitted the engine and it was fine. 

Good luck.

[Chillidoggy]

There must surely have been a lot of end float on the crank for that to happen, because I haven't measured anything yet, but it looked like there was enough clearance for a larger bolt head.

And they're only supposed to be tightened to 6lbs/ft, which is perfectly OK for an M6 button head, except mine are more like 60lbs/ft.

[Loose Cannon]

Silly little things, soft as butter. I dremelled slots in a couple of them and used a big flat screwdriver, back a bit, forward a little more, and worked them out that way. A couple more were done with hammered in larger torx as suggested. Next option were those screw extractors, glad I didnt these those at another £30 for the set.

I put stainless buttons back in, hopefully never see them again, but wish now I'd gone for thin hex.

[Chillidoggy]

Got the bastards!

Combination of drilling, chiselling, beating the crap out of the end of said aforementioned chisel, good fortune, and seriously harsh language. They had been threadlocked in for sure, but whether that was due to an overzealous coating of Permabond on the carrier by the last (or indeed the first) bloke that was in there will remain a mystery. The good news is that there appears to be no groove at all on the crank, so that's one bit less to worry about.

[eeyoreish]

I did my rear crank seal over the winter. Feeling very lucky now that I didn't have the same problem getting the housing off!

Pressing in the new seal to spec was a challenge though, even with a hydraulic press and a short piece of square cut thick ally tubing the same diameter as the seal. Got there in the end with lots of pressing, checking, rotating in the press, pressing again. Seems to be ok now though and no more leaks.

 

[silverfrost]

Great news Ian, glad you have managed to get that hold up out of the way and also without damaging anything.  

[Chillidoggy]

Fighting off a hangover this morning after the bass-player's 50th party last night. I made a mental note never again to down 6 pints of London Pride before attempting to play a guitar in front of an assembled crowd, stood next to the bass-player who was waaay ahead of me on the Adnams Ghost Ship pint count. It might have been an iffy performance...........

Thus, I ventured slowly into engine removal territory this morning. There was good and bad news. The good news, was that the engine came out perfectly, and is now on the engine stand. The bad news was that unless I can ease them above it, I may have to remove the fuel tank balance pipe (it the straight black one in the photo) prior to replacing the four lower coolant pipes.

Just kill me now, it will save me potentially being a human torch yet again.

 

 

[silverfrost]

Good effort,  stand by for Barry ripping the piss if you have to pull the fuel balance pipe 

[Barrykearley]

That pipe looks shagged and about to split........

get it out - there's next to nothing in it

[Chillidoggy]

To be fair, Barry are already both fully paid-up members of the exclusive Hellpipe Club. That's a proper man's club, and not to be confused with those limp-wrested, upper-class pansies in the Hellfire Club.

The balance pipe has already been out once, and it's actually in very good condition indeed, having been sandblasted, inspected and painted, 'cos there was absolutely no way on God's green earth I was ever going to take it out again.............where's that facepalm emoticon?

[Barrykearley]

Proper baptism of true men chap