Formula One

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

To be honest, I think there is no chance of this race result being overruled on appeal. I reckon we’ll all just have to learn to live with it. I wonder if LH is considering calling it a day now? He seemed quite cryptic in the post race interview with Button, but I guess he’ll take some time to reflect. If so there could be a top seat coming available for next year.

It was all caused by a driver from another unrelated team crashing in a battle for last place. Verstappen took the chance for a safety car pit stop for fresh soft tyres, whilst Horner begged Masi to change his mind about the overtaking decision. Verstappen was always going to be all over Hamilton, especially with no threat from behind. Hamilton left a gap and Verstappen took it.

None of the above was the fault of Verstappen, so I can’t see them taking the win off him.

[PaulCP]

Whilst we are all trying to analyse Masi’s performance yesterday, thinking about his remark to Toto afterwards when Toto complained about that last few laps fiasco, to which Masi replied in an arrogant manner “it’s called motor racing Toto,” let’s not forget Masi’s performance at Spa this year.

A race delayed by heavy rain which Masi decided would be decided by 2 laps behind a safety car. Half points were then awarded as per the grid positions so Max benefitted from 5 points without a race being run.

Not only did Masi cheat F1’s money paying fans at that “race” it is another example of his “strange” decision making. He has manipulated not just the result of one race but quite possibly an entire F1 season!

[pete]

54 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

To be honest, I think there is no chance of this race result being overruled on appeal. I reckon we’ll all just have to learn to live with it. I wonder if LH is considering calling it a day now? He seemed quite cryptic in the post race interview with Button, but I guess he’ll take some time to reflect. If so there could be a top seat coming available for next year.

It was all caused by a driver from another unrelated team crashing in a battle for last place. Verstappen took the chance for a safety car pit stop for fresh soft tyres, whilst Horner begged Masi to change his mind about the overtaking decision. Verstappen was always going to be all over Hamilton, especially with no threat from behind. Hamilton left a gap and Verstappen took it.

None of the above was the fault of Verstappen, so I can’t see them taking the win off him.

Above is spot on and sums it all up . Think Hamilton will be back next year and really fired up. Neither driver did anything wrong and both teams had said they wanted it decided on the track. Thought Hamilton was very respectful after the race but wasn't impressed with mercedes taking a barrister with them to the race

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Haha, that was a waste of money, wasn’t it?

[pete]

Mercedes have to object by Thursday when the FIA 'party' takes place. However looks like mercedes won't be pursuing it any further

[mg4lotus]

Mercedes Benz won the constructors championship but I bet they will be considering whether it is worth all the money they invest in the sport when the outcomes can be affected so arbitrarily and the rules flouted or interpreted at whim.

[pete]

Any publicity is good publicity

[duncx]

18 hours ago, rudolphwolven said:

*****

As a Dutch race-enthousiast I am very happy with the championship of Max Verstappen.

 

I can understand that you're happy but do you not also feel a bit uncomfortable with the way that Max won his title? I'm not blaming Max for this last lap nonsense, he has to take what lady luck (or in this case Massi) gives him,  but if I was a fan of Max it would definitely take the shine off his win.

I'm not a Max fan (too dirty for my liking) but bizarrely, in this case,I actually feel a bit sorry for him; this will never feel 100% right.

[hedgerley]

Having slept on it, I have to get this off my chest........

Regardless of the regulations, for me this shows what an abject hypocrite Horner is. He repeatedly demands 'let them race' but can't acknowledge that's exactly what Hamilton did. Notwithstanding the first lap incident he spent 50 laps building his lead, his team managing the pit stop strategy, he managing his tyres. A key part of racing is safely negotiating back markers, who themselves are fighting for position. Hamilton did this cleanly and with little fuss. He built a 12 second lead over Verstappen and for good measure put 5 back markers between them, with just a few laps to go. Horner admitted that the Mercedes was just to quick for them and they would need a miracle to get back on even terms.

As he's done many times, Hamilton's raw speed and race craft put him in an unassailable position, building his lead over an entire race. If that's not racing then I don't know what is. Then the accident and safety car. The message went out that no drivers would be allowed to unlap themselves. That decision dictated Mercedes strategy for the final laps, leaving Hamilton out as he would lose track position. RBRs last throw of the dice was to put the softs on 'just in case' that miracle happened. Then Horner got on the phone to Massi, imploring him to get the lapped drivers out of the way so the two drivers 'could race'. When Massi buckled and changed his mind, he reduced 58 laps, the race and indeed the whole season to a one lap shoot out that RBR were certain to win. Everything Mercedes and Hamilton had done for the previous 50 laps was thrown out, the slate wiped clean. Its no wonder Wolff reacted the way he did.

The decisions made by Massi clearly favoured RBR, ignoring or misrepresenting the regulations along the way. This is clearly evidenced by not letting the other three drivers unlap themselves before the restart, so they 'could go racing' as well. Sainz didn't get a chance to have a go at Verstappen, Tsnoda didn't get a chance to have a go at Sainz and Bottas couldn't go after Tsonda. No, only Max benefitted from Massi's ineptitude and in my view, his collusion with RBR. The excuse of there being only one lap left so he had to pull the safety car in at that point to allow them to go racing - "it's a motor race Toto" - is pathetic; the rules were bent/ignored to ensure it didn't finish under the the safety car, which, whilst unedifying, should have been the way it finished, according to the regulations (even though the accident had been cleared. I wonder if Liberty Media put pressure on Massi to ensure we got a different champion?

Now Horner is saying Mercedes are desperate with their protests and appeals, that Max won fairly. This is hypocrisy of the highest order and one of the worst crimes against the 'spirit' of motor racing I've seen in 40 years of watching F1, up there with Schumacher taking Hill out and Senna shunting Prost off.

I've got no problem with Max wining the title, either driver deserved it. Neither do I have a problem with him capitalising on the decisions made. The guilty parties here are Horner, RBR, Massi and the stewards. And for me, rather than the race itself, I'll remember how gracious Lewis and also his Dad were in defeat. What an utter gentleman.

And breathe......

[C8RKH]

I thought these words from Jordan were class to be honest.  I think the way Hamilton has handled this has won him a oot of fans.

Horners an entitled twit.

 

 

"You can't deny Verstappen the right to the championship," he said.

"However, on the other side, I think Hamilton has opened the door. He's allowed someone as aggressive and arrogant as Verstappen to upset him and steal his title from him.

"I think Lewis has been too nice for too long and I think he needs to harden himself up again.

"For me, it's his body language. Listen to the way he spoke afterwards; he was so sporting. All of Britain can be so proud of what he's doing but nice guys don't win titles and he's become a nice guy.

"He's the best driver I've ever seen and I've seen some really top drivers in my time, so for me to say that I'm really putting him on a pedestal."

[rudolphwolven]

58 minutes ago, duncx said:

I can understand that you're happy but do you not also feel a bit uncomfortable with the way that Max won his title? I'm not blaming Max for this last lap nonsense, he has to take what lady luck (or in this case Massi) gives him,  but if I was a fan of Max it would definitely take the shine off his win.

I'm not a Max fan (too dirty for my liking) but bizarrely, in this case,I actually feel a bit sorry for him; this will never feel 100% right.

*****

Some thoughts:
Lewis Hamilton is a very, very nice and respective gentleman's champion imo..........

Max races "on the edge"......also forced to that because Mercedes has the better car. 

Toto Wolff and Mercedes imo are "on the edge" regarding protests etc. etc, nearly every race.

German generally do not like / find it terrible to loose from a "Dutch Cheese Head"

The "Merry Christmas Max Greetings" from the UK SKY TV imo were far from the traditional UK sportsmanship behavior and unwise versus an eager fighter as Max.

Ultimately he has won......I do not feel sorry for him as I never did with the most respected Lewis........

Edited December 13, 2021 by rudolphwolven

[Chillidoggy]

This thread will be like a ghost town next year, what with all the promises never watch F1 again.

[C8RKH]

Wot's F1?

[jep]

41 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I think Lewis has been too nice for too long and I think he needs to harden himself

Absolute tosh from E Jordan.

Merc were nowhere in winter testing Feb 2021. The new rules hampered Merc (and Aston), deliberately. 

Merc won the constructors title and nearly pulled off an amazing comeback to win the drivers title having been 33 points adrift. 

Lewis's performances in the last 4 races were supreme. He didn't buckle and nor did Merc 

Red Bull should have walked this championship but allowed Merc back in. They failed to win the constructors because they have a failed team ethos that marginalises the second driver.

Justin

[PaulCP]

19 minutes ago, rudolphwolven said:

 

Toto Wolff and Mercedes imo are "on the edge" regarding protests etc. etc, nearly every race.

German generally do not like / find it terrible to loose from a "Dutch Cheese Head"

 

Mercedes have made it clear that any request for an FIA enquiry is against the way the race was handled and that it is not aimed in any way towards Max or RBR.

Max has the title and that’s the way it will stay. What happened was no fault of his but I do believe that Horner, who now seems to have turned into an even bigger hypocrite with his post race comments, was implicit in engineering Masi’s decision.

After this and what Masi did at Spa I’m amazed that he has not been relieved of his duties this morning

[jep]

How we miss Charlie Whiting. No-one messed with Charlie, a (almost) benign dictatorship, hanging over from the Bernie era.

I dare say Masi is a decent guy, under huge pressure and perhaps at 42 years old and with no established gravitas within F1, is not the man for the job. A number two maybe. 

They need to find a new race director. Kimi would do! He won't over-think or over-talk the situation.

Justin

[TdM]

"Kimi, this is Christian"

"Shut up"

"You need to let them unlap themselves so we can steal the title"

"Leave me alone, I know what I am doing"

[pete]

1 hour ago, jep said:

Absolute tosh from E Jordan.

Merc were nowhere in winter testing Feb 2021. The new rules hampered Merc (and Aston), deliberately. 

Merc won the constructors title and nearly pulled off an amazing comeback to win the drivers title having been 33 points adrift. 

Lewis's performances in the last 4 races were supreme. He didn't buckle and nor did Merc 

Red Bull should have walked this championship but allowed Merc back in. They failed to win the constructors because they have a failed team ethos that marginalises the second driver.

Justin

Absolute tosh

[electro_boy]

What a complete s**t show from Masi / F1, what a terrible way to end the championship!  What a weird situation to be in, the appeal is not one team against another team, its against the establishment it self!

Anyone else think Lewis may not be driving next season based on his post race interview with Button?

 

 

 

 

[C8RKH]

[jimichanga]

So simple. Had Merc pitted Hamilton under VSC he’d have won whatever Masi decided. LH himself questioned the strategy to keep him out on both occasions. Masi was in an impossible position and rightly tried to let them race for the title rather than finish it behind the safety car for the worst ever conclusion to an incredibly hard fought title. Merc was much faster again at Abu Dhabi, they should have backed their pace and LH’s talent to get the job done from 2nd place behind Max who would have been on worn tyres. They chose to keep Lewis out the fault is theirs alone and now everyone’s calling for Masi’s head! The FIA rightly wanted a ‘let them race’ policy, Masi’s decision was rightly influenced by that. The same approach that benefitted LH many times over the season.

For sure the team bosses should not be able to talk to the race director, for sure there have been inconsistencies, for sure the decision to let some cars unlap themselves but not others was controversial but I firmly believe it was done with the best intentions to let the title be decided by racing. This notion that it was fixed is utter rubbish as everyone knows. They would have penalised Lewis for the off track advantage if that was the plan.

Everyone now says Lewis had no chance but that’s not true either. He had the advantage of controlling the restart from the lead in the fastest car in the grid. He had the chance to block Max or repass him for the lead. If Max took him out the stewards would have given it to LH, they made that clear - also unprecedented but also rightly so. The only advantage Max had was better tyres which Mercedes chose not to give LH.

If LH had pitted, MV stayed out on worn tyres and won the race behind the safety car we’d be seeing exactly the same uproar and accusations of fixing.

[Simon Bateman]

It's really soured F1 for me.

Clearly Liberty Media are pushing to make F1 more 'Hollywood' and indirectly (I suspect) has had input in how these type of situations should be 'managed'.

Sport should not be artificially made to appear more exciting. Sometimes it's boring and predictable. Sometimes teams and individuals are so dominant that races or events seem one sided, but that's sport and it has to be rule based.

Mercedes/Hamilton were so far ahead of RBR yesterday, that the contrived end result was bordering on criminal.  What about those people who had a bet on the outcome.....have they been robbed?

I'm not sure where F1 goes from here. It's a highly tech based sport driven by technical regs and rules.  It's not WWE.

[jimichanga]

It wasn’t given to Red Bull at all. Simply not true to claim LH had no chance. Merc had every chance to win in the fastest car plus LH’s talent and experience. The Merc was faster on mediums than the Red Bull on softs and faster on worn hards than RB on fresh ones. LH could have defended better and made Max go the long way round. Max was really smart to make the move early and from way back, his only chance was to catch Lewis early and by surprise and he pulled it off. Incredible given the stakes and level of opponent.

Best outcome for next year with hopefully some improved consistency and clarity from the FIA. Max is fully deserving plus there will be more fire in LH’s belly for 22. I want to see Lewis win 8 titles but I don’t think such a (probably unbeatable) feat should come so easily. It will mean more to win it next year. Exceptional driving from both of them this year, different level to everyone else neither deserved to lose.

[C8RKH]

@jimichanga - Masi originally stated the cars would not be allowed to pass and Merc decided to keep Hamilton on the tyres he had, then, after the intervention from Christine Horner, he let "some" of the cars through so totally wiped off the advantage Hamilton had driven so hard to get. If Masi had just restarted as they were (his original decision) you would still have had a cracking final lap - Lewis running for his life, Max on fresh softs slicing through three back markers, and cracking finale to see who won - and I think everyone would have been happier with the result regardless of who won. But by doing what he did he basically "gave" the race to Max. There is no way Lewis with 45+ lap old hard tyres would have the pace of Verstappen on basically the best set of qualifying tyres ever. If you can't see the injustive, or the crassness of the "it's motor racing" statement in that then I give up.

The issue has been for 7 years Max has been allowed to get away with it (I find it incredulous that he keep saying he has had no luck this year!!! Absolute bonkers) so the other drivers know they just need to get out of the way, and then this year Masi has just lost control, not been consistent and people quite rightly are pointing the finger at him (Mercedes are being clear they are NOT protesting Max) and saying Michael Masi you are joke. About as much use as a banana in a knife fight. About as clear as foggy day. About as decisive as a Lemming and have as much backbone as an invertebrate.

 

We'll see/hear more, but the drivers are expressing the same opinions re it was "weird" - well apart from Alonso but he has never gotten over Hamilton beating him anyway and no one really listens to him that much any more. Again, not directing any ire towards Max or Red Bull here. It's Masi that I'd like to see beaten with a squishy cucumber!

 

Norris said: "Sometimes they let you go, sometimes they don't. It's just 50-50 half the time. But they said that they're not going to let us past, so I was guessing that was a message to say they were just not going to let us past at all.

"To suddenly do it just for the final lap and for a one-lap shootout, I'm a bit surprised by."

Norris's team-mate Daniel Ricciardo said: "I'm honestly just speechless. I don't know what to make of all that, I really don't. I need to see how it all came about."

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc called the decisions "a bit weird".

[PaulCP]

Mark Webber called it absolutely right in his comment last night. He said “allowing that last lap race was like inviting 2 guys to have a gun fight to resolve their differences and giving one of them a knife”

@jimichangayour analysis really says ‘the rules, common sense and F1’s credibility are meaningless. Next season let’s just have every race as a 1 lap shootout
BTW, Lewis decided not to pit during the virtual SC, not his team