Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel

[Steve V8]

Let's not even go there, let's not start thinking about making excuses for these low life religious fanatics.

It's time the Gaza strip was peeled off the face of the earth, and those in it most of whom support and harbour Hamas and their hideous crimes wiped away with it.

I just cannot fathom the mentality of men who think it's okay to hunt down and massacre women and children, my belief in humanity and my heart is broken at the thought of all those young people with so much life ahead of them indiscriminately executed.

I feel sorry for the ANIMALS, being tarred with the same brush as these f**king pond life idiots.

Apologies, still angry, and having trouble getting past it.

[drdoom]

In this we witness a tragic miscalculation by Hamas, forcing Israel's hand in dreadful response. Where was the humanity in 1948 when Jews rightly sought territory from which to anchor against future murderous virulence? Never seemed to occur in the Arab world to respond in sympathy, instead persisting in violence decade after decade. I fear one may expect little more of any society that fails to adequately value the wisdom of women. Boys will be boys as long as they have no need to grow up. 

[C8RKH]

11 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

I just cannot fathom the mentality of men who think it's okay to hunt down and massacre women and children

Steve, since the dawn of man this has been done, by men from the North, South, East and West. Women, children (and men) have systematically been hunted down, enslaved, tortured and massacred and the noble Englishman (and Scots, Welsh and Irish) has done more than his fair share over history. It's why we have the saying "man's inhumanity to man". Have you not heard the stories about indigenous babies being thrown in the air and bets taken by soldiers as to whose bayonets they'd land on? Or babies buried to their necks, alive, and then their heads kicked off? Or the frenzy with which troops would ransack a besieged town after it's walls were breached and everything inside was fair game for killing, raping, mutilating, enslaving etc.

It's been happening in the Ukraine today. In Asia, Africa and South America. Remember the genocide in Rwanda? The slaying of innocents by drug cartels in South America? The world in the past, and still today, is literally littered with events like this. We cannot and must not use these acts as justification to tar all Palestinians as HAMAS terrorists.

In no way am I condoning it.

8 hours ago, drdoom said:

Where was the humanity in 1948 when Jews rightly sought territory from which to anchor against future murderous virulence? Never seemed to occur in the Arab world to respond in sympathy, instead persisting in violence decade after decade

If I remember correctly the League of Nations (now the UN) set aside the land around Palestine after the Ottoman Empire was defeated in the First World War. Space was given to Jews and Palestinians to make their homes.  War's broke out and the state of Israel was declared after the war. Then Palestinian land was invaded and further diced up between Israel, Jordan and Egypt iirc. Whilst the jews got their nation state in Israel, the Palestinians have effectively been stateless since around 1948, and squeezed into ever smaller areas. Unemployment amongst them is over 52% as they are denied/given very restricted access to jobs in Israel and elsewhere, and as a result poverty is rife everywhere. Jewish settlers, despite international rulings, have continued to illegally resposses and bulldoze Palestinian settlements displacing tens of thousands and causing abject poverty, and Israel has targeted civilian infrastructure (against international laws) repeatedly in their responses to HAMAS rocket attacks etc..

Please do not make the mistake of thinking that Israel is not responsible in part. Certainly what has happened cannot be justified in any way, and HAMAS needs to be routed out and destroyed to the core. But HAMAS is not EVERY Palestinian and every Palestinian does not support HAMAS. Remember, they effectively gained controlled in Gaza through a military coup.

I am not condoning anything and certainly not these acts by HAMAS. What has happened is absolutely terrible. But the history is long, and the suffering, on all sides, has been immense over 75 years. A permanent solution does need to be found. 

[Kimbers]

And what about people in the west chanting "Gas the Jews" even in our own country.

I'm sorry but I'm with Israel. Your "Normal Palestinians" who live here seem to want Jews gassed. Not what I would call peaceful civilians!

[drdoom]

I have no issue in sympathising with Palestinians, or any other decent humans for that matter, and the ongoing misery in Gaza has long been evident. A permanent solution has been the elusive goal though for the extremists of the Arab world that would be Israel's anihilation. Anti-semitism remains the most tired example of basic hatred and continues to fester wherever weak minded people think their own limited prospects are due to the better terms achieved by others. It's as simple as that.

Prior to 1948 Palestine was delineated by lines in the desert drawn up by the British Empire, in any case.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

And what about people in the west chanting "Gas the Jews" even in our own country.

I'm sorry but I'm with Israel. Your "Normal Palestinians" who live here seem to want Jews gassed. Not what I would call peaceful civilians!

@Kimbers there are ignorant racists everywhere. You cannot tar all with "ones views" if you get my point.

I can assure you, there are many who are now, and have done for years, Israeli extremists who have been chanting "death to Palestinians" as they have flattened their homes with tanks. But do we tar all jews with that same brush? No, of course we don't.

We need to sympathise for sure. But let's not go down the route of taring a whole race due to the acts of some. That gets us into a very dark place indeed. Unless you are now saying that a Palestinian civilian woman, or child, or baby, is not as innocent or valuable as a Jewish Israeli civilian?  Gosh, now that would be an horrific point of view.

[C8RKH]

34 minutes ago, drdoom said:

Prior to 1948 Palestine was delineated by lines in the desert drawn up by the British Empire, in any case

I may be wrong and am very happy to be corrected, but I think you will find the area was drawn up under Ottoman Rule in modern times, and with the Ottoman empire being defeated at the first world war the area came under the League of Nations, with Britain being given the remit to redraw and divide from 1948 to establish both jewish and palestinian nations.

Prior to that, the area was ruled by a variety of peoples including the Ancient Egyptians, the Persian Empire, Alexander the Great, the Hasmoneans, the Romans, several muslim caliphates and the western Crusaders!

[ChrisJ]

@C8RKH - you might find this interesting reading: Why Did The Palestinians Run Away in 1948? | History News Network

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, ChrisJ said:

@C8RKH - you might find this interesting reading: Why Did The Palestinians Run Away in 1948? | History News Network

Thank you Chris, very interesting reading. I had not realised that in the middle east the expected "norm" was that refugees return after hostilities cease.

[JimmytheTurbo]

Tomorrow basically being a new moon and the Friday 13th relating back to the execution of the Templars (716 years to the day) people are talking about the Arabs launching an attack on Israel. I guess time will tell.

Edited October 12, 2023 by JimmytheTurbo

[Steve V8]

@C8RKH Have you heard the voices of Palestine condemning the atrocious acts of those murdering bastards...NO, NOTHING, NADA, all I hear and see is Palastinian women crying, (and with good reason) we have nothing, where will we go? What will we do? Perhaps they should have thought of that before allowing their husbands to mutilate their neighbours, while those men still fire their guns in the air chanting and raving death to the infidels.

FFS let's not compare this to things thar took place in the distant past. This is now, this is the 21st century, I've watched these terrorists (ordinary Pallestinian men) break into civilian houses using DeWalt power tools to inact genocide on terrified families, whist live streaming their atrocities to their adoring fans back in the news rooms of Gaza. 

Are these the heroes you would protect???

[MrBlueSky]

Sorry joining this thread late and just at the point in discussions where the complexity of the historical context throws us all down different rabbit holes of truth seeking such as the interesting paper above on returning refugees. This resonated, "   On the contrary, they tried in vain to stop it. The old Israeli narrative is as wrong as the new Palestinian one, and the historical picture is far more complex." 

I don't know any of you personally so can only trust that you see my comments as an effort to understand. I feel like I've spent the last 2 years on a personal quest to try to understand all the crisis hitting us simultaneously. I'm also currently in hospital after a major life scare 4 days ago so perhaps a bit emotional.

My point. My analysis is driving me to think that something very big is looming. Something Epic and world changing.

ISIS and their unimaginable terror has been dispersed and Hamas now look very similar.

Can any of us imagine having them attack and torture our families like that.

There are so many factors playing here, How could IDF be so unprepared especially on that historical date.

Timing surely eliminates any accord between Saudi and Israel- surely no coincidence.

Biden (who surely must have a puppet master) is creating civil war back home and simultaneously pushing a proxy war in Ukraine.

Both the US and EU have literally millions of young male migrants embedded in our cities awaiting processing. 

Its a bloody lit powderkeg and I have a very bad feeling.

[Escape]

8 hours ago, MrBlueSky said:

Both the US and EU have literally millions of young male migrants embedded in our cities awaiting processing.

This is what worries me the most personally. It's a matter of when, not if, Israel will strike back hard. The terrorists will flee or hide, civilians will pay the price and the frustration will no doubt lead to violence close to our own homes as well. The first violent incidents against jewish people have already happened in Flanders. Apart from condone the retaliatory actions of Israel or not, it is a fact (at least over here) that the jewish community keeps things very much behind walls. They may object and file charges when the perceive something as negating the holocaust or ask for extra protection, but I know of no cases where they actively sought confrontation or instigated violence. This is very different from many of the islamic youths in our major cities that seem to take any opportunity they can to go on a violent spree and cause riots.

Regardless of the complex history of the middle east (including the blood on western hands), close to home my sympathy definitely lies with the jews.

[C8RKH]

I couldn't agree with you more @MrBlueSky and made a similar comment in an earlier post re Putin engaging the west and draining reserves of ammo etc in Ukraine. Now Hamas in the Middle East, undoubtedly supported by Iran, that will inevitably suck more US resources in. And then China waiting in the wings to invade Taiwan.  It does feel very coordinated!

The mass migration of young men from the middle east, and north africa, into the West is a real worry given they can show a level of disdain, supported by violence, to the West and how we live.

The "liberals" have walked us into a potential flashpoint re immigration (and no, I'm not a hard right ultra nationalist).

Wishing you a speedy and full recovery.

[C8RKH]

10 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

Are these the heroes you would protect???

Really. Show me one point that I have raised that shows my support for that point of view? 

I have been very clear, on numerous occasions, that I do not and cannot condone what HAMAS has done and that these terrorists need to be eliminated.

Raising the point that innocent women and children on the "other" side are being killed and massacred (it does not matter to the victim the manner of their death, death is death) and denied access to essential human rights like electricity, food, water and medicines and medical support, in your eyes makes me a supporter of terrorism? 

Pointing out that Israel has inflamed the situation over the years with land grabs and illegal settlements, usually obtained by force and with the total destruction of Palestinian civilians homes, makes me a supporter of HAMAS "heroes". Don't get me wrong, the Palestinians haven't been saints here either.

Wow. Get a grip bud.

The issues here have been festering for 75 years. We and the international community, have failed the Jews and Israelis', AND, the Arabs and Palestinians. Far from sitting on a high horse condemning one side or the other, we should be burying our heads in shame and wondering how we have allowed it to come to this. How we have allowed Groups like HAMAS, Isis and Hezbollah to achieve control and create an environment for them to so easily recruit.

41 minutes ago, Escape said:

This is very different from many of the islamic youths in our major cities that seem to take any opportunity they can to go on a violent spree and cause riots.

Spot on.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

One word: Religion.

Whoever came up with that bonkers and divisive idea thousands of years ago has caused more human deaths than anyone in history, although that Chinese scientist in Wuhan is running him a close second!

[C8RKH]

58 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

One word: Religion.

Whoever came up with that bonkers and divisive idea thousands of years ago has caused more human deaths than anyone in history, although that Chinese scientist in Wuhan is running him a close second!

Too right. Remember the Spanish monks (iirc) who weren't allow to use violence and draw blood, so they worked out you could roast peoples feet over a fire, until literally the meat fell off, and as they was no blood drawn it was deemed "ok"?

Or a catholic who can kill, rape and torture and be absolved of their "sins".

...................

[MrBlueSky]

Anyone got any thoughts on how prepared our and EU government's are for widespread rioting or worse in every major EU city once a ground invasion starts.

What percentage of our military has been despatched away to either Gaza or Ukraine

[C8RKH]

14 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

Have you heard the voices of Palestine condemning the atrocious acts of those murdering bastards...

Not every Palestinian supports HAMAS and indeed listening to the World Service this lunchtime it was confirmed that Palestinians were increasing their protests against HAMAS and HAMAS was under popular attack.

But hey, to you, all Palestinians are terrorists and deserve to be wiped out!

If only it was that simple.

[MrBlueSky]

"The "liberals" have walked us into a potential flashpoint re immigration (and no, I'm not a hard right ultra nationalist).

Wishing you a speedy and full recovery."

Yes they have and not just re immigration, and you certainly don't need to justify or qualify that your not a right wing nut to me.

Thanks for message. Heading home today and will try best to relax with family and keep stress levels down on this rather ominous Friday 13th.

[pete]

See a French teacher has been murdered in France by a known Chechen islamist. 

[pete]

Richard littlejohn has his say

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12625253/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-English-football-bosses-love-players-taking-knee-wont-offer-gesture-support-Jewish-victims-Hamass-racist-butchers.html

[C8RKH]

Yeah, the FA, who'd have thought they'd be found to have no spine.

[Chillidoggy]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Yeah, the FA, who'd have thought they'd be found to have no spine.

Interesting to read his comments on Qatar, too.

I recall we’ve been there recently for some or other little event…

[C8RKH]

This is as unacceptable, and as abhorrent, as what HAMAS did. 

Targeting (whether deliberate or, maybe hard to prove by accident, a convoy of civilian refugees who were fleeing, as they had been told/warned to do, and on a confirmed and sanctioned refugee fleeing route. Targeting and and killing women and children!

How is that justified, no matter what the provocation?

It's tough for the Israeli's given what they endured. It's even tougher as, since 2014 certainly, and before, HAMAS have deliberately been willing to sacrifice civilians as they hide behind and within them. But knowing this, means they have to be certain when they retaliate that they are not targeting innocents. Otherwise, how are they any better?

It's also playing into the hands of Arabs who can use these atrocities to further stoke hatred and stir even more violence and attacks.

 

Reports first emerged yesterday evening of a strike on a convoy of vehicles heading towards southern Gaza. Videos showing the carnage at the scene emerged shortly afterwards.

BBC Verify has confirmed the strike occurred on Salah-al-Din street; one of two evacuation routes from north Gaza to the south.

The road was full of traffic all day yesterday as Gazans based in the north adhered to Israeli warnings to vacate the area.

At least 12 dead bodies are visible in the footage, mostly women and children - some of whom appear to be as young as two to five years old.